Hi Folks;
I am looking for a device that can accept my laptop (via USB), a CD/DVD player (via optical) and at least one analogue audio input. My output requirements are driving 3 power amps in a 3-way, 2 channel system.
At the risk of redundancy, I am starting this thread to extract knowledge from the wealth of digital experts at diyaudio, and for the benefit of amateurs like me. (Until yesterday, I thought a FIR filter was something you would get at Pets R Us)
I would will gladly provide details of my system, in following entries, but (one of) my goals is to replace an aging Rane AC-23 crossover, and also eliminate my graphic EQ. My mid-range line arrays are self designed and built, after considerable research, but I feel they could benefit from a more flexible (and steeper sloped 48 db/octave) crossover.
I imagine a DSP to be a considerable expense. The benefits are already apparent. It is a technology way beyond me so I need to do some serious investigation. I don't want 'blow the bank' on features that are resolving 'nth degree problems' or irrelevant applications. At the same time I would like to make a purchase that won't be outmoded in the near future.
Thanks and hope to hear from all of you who have been so helpful on other threads,
Peter
I am looking for a device that can accept my laptop (via USB), a CD/DVD player (via optical) and at least one analogue audio input. My output requirements are driving 3 power amps in a 3-way, 2 channel system.
At the risk of redundancy, I am starting this thread to extract knowledge from the wealth of digital experts at diyaudio, and for the benefit of amateurs like me. (Until yesterday, I thought a FIR filter was something you would get at Pets R Us)
I would will gladly provide details of my system, in following entries, but (one of) my goals is to replace an aging Rane AC-23 crossover, and also eliminate my graphic EQ. My mid-range line arrays are self designed and built, after considerable research, but I feel they could benefit from a more flexible (and steeper sloped 48 db/octave) crossover.
I imagine a DSP to be a considerable expense. The benefits are already apparent. It is a technology way beyond me so I need to do some serious investigation. I don't want 'blow the bank' on features that are resolving 'nth degree problems' or irrelevant applications. At the same time I would like to make a purchase that won't be outmoded in the near future.
Thanks and hope to hear from all of you who have been so helpful on other threads,
Peter
Attachments
Peter,
There are two options to get all of your requirements in the one device.
The Najda DSP board from wroclaw audio has analogue in, optical and coaxial spdif, 8 analogue outputs and an 8 channel analogue volume control built in. It is very easy to add a USB to I2s board for USB audio input from a computer. This is a bare diy board (with a control panel as an option) and needs a power supply and chassis.
There is a boxed version but I am not sure what price it is.
http://www.waf-audio.com/index.php?lang=en
This can function as a digital crossover and EQ solution. It can do both IIR and FIR filtering but unfortunately not at the same time.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/215379-dsp-xover-project-part-2-a.html
This is my version of it in a custom made chassis.
The other option is to buy an audio interface like a Saffire 18i20 or equivalent. That has analogue and digital inputs and attaches to the computer via usb. This will need a program like Jriver to do the crossover and EQ duties.
MiniDSP has a number of good kits and finished boards but none of them have all that you ask for. Some are missing USB audio some are missing analogue audio inputs.
Are you looking for a finished product or are you prepared to DIY part or all of it?
There are two options to get all of your requirements in the one device.
The Najda DSP board from wroclaw audio has analogue in, optical and coaxial spdif, 8 analogue outputs and an 8 channel analogue volume control built in. It is very easy to add a USB to I2s board for USB audio input from a computer. This is a bare diy board (with a control panel as an option) and needs a power supply and chassis.
There is a boxed version but I am not sure what price it is.
http://www.waf-audio.com/index.php?lang=en
This can function as a digital crossover and EQ solution. It can do both IIR and FIR filtering but unfortunately not at the same time.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/215379-dsp-xover-project-part-2-a.html
This is my version of it in a custom made chassis.
The other option is to buy an audio interface like a Saffire 18i20 or equivalent. That has analogue and digital inputs and attaches to the computer via usb. This will need a program like Jriver to do the crossover and EQ duties.
MiniDSP has a number of good kits and finished boards but none of them have all that you ask for. Some are missing USB audio some are missing analogue audio inputs.
Are you looking for a finished product or are you prepared to DIY part or all of it?
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You can use a MiniDSP OpenDRC DA8. It comes with only one SPDIF (stereo) digital input, but you can modify it and add an AN-FP to gain a set of analogue inputs. You'll need to desolder the balanced inputs and solder on some cables and a pair of RCA input terminals. You'll also need a bit longer ribbon cable and a bit longer cable for the SPDIF digital input.
With this out of the way, you can use an SPDIF switcher and optical to SPDIF converters to gain more digital inputs. You can use a miniStreamer to connect a laptop to an SPDIF input.
I've gotten the DA8 and have added the AN FP. Works like a charm.
To go full hog, you can use the miniSHARC, add an Arduino for control, add an AN-FP for analog input and a twisted pear demuxer, controlled by the arduino for more source inputs. Add DACs after your own taste. The MiniDAC 8 - an 8 channel dac (the same is in the DA8), the Curryman DAC - a stereo dac (you'll need 4 for 8 channels) or any of the Twisted Pear solutions (Opus, BuffaloII or COD).
Johan-Kr
With this out of the way, you can use an SPDIF switcher and optical to SPDIF converters to gain more digital inputs. You can use a miniStreamer to connect a laptop to an SPDIF input.
I've gotten the DA8 and have added the AN FP. Works like a charm.
To go full hog, you can use the miniSHARC, add an Arduino for control, add an AN-FP for analog input and a twisted pear demuxer, controlled by the arduino for more source inputs. Add DACs after your own taste. The MiniDAC 8 - an 8 channel dac (the same is in the DA8), the Curryman DAC - a stereo dac (you'll need 4 for 8 channels) or any of the Twisted Pear solutions (Opus, BuffaloII or COD).
Johan-Kr
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Hi Fluid
Your cabinet work is beautiful! On quick inspection, it appears that the analogue outputs are RCA only and I would prefer balanced, to accommodate the Yamaha P2200 driving the Plannar tweeters, and Crest CA-18, driving 18 inch RCF bass cabinets. The Saffire seems more of a recording studio tool at first glance but I will investigate further, thanks.
Fenalaar;
I have years of electrical and analogue audio experience, with a soldering iron, but this is way beyond my comfort zone, and would like to find something 'out of the box' that would fill my requirements. I am going to 'chicken out' and try to find something ready built, thanks for your reply and any suggestions,
Peter
Your cabinet work is beautiful! On quick inspection, it appears that the analogue outputs are RCA only and I would prefer balanced, to accommodate the Yamaha P2200 driving the Plannar tweeters, and Crest CA-18, driving 18 inch RCF bass cabinets. The Saffire seems more of a recording studio tool at first glance but I will investigate further, thanks.
Fenalaar;
I have years of electrical and analogue audio experience, with a soldering iron, but this is way beyond my comfort zone, and would like to find something 'out of the box' that would fill my requirements. I am going to 'chicken out' and try to find something ready built, thanks for your reply and any suggestions,
Peter
tip of the iceberg with FIR processing...
Peter,
I know You are starting to dig into the digital realm. I do not know how deep You have dug into the possibilities of IIR and FIR processing. What I can mention, is with FIR processing, You can create 48dB/octave cross-over filters that are phase linear. You can also create brickwall cross-overs. To give You an idea of what these look like, I have included two screen shots from rePhase.
The solid red line shows the curves of the cross-over filters, and the dotted line shows the phase.
Whether or not You will prefer the sound of linear phase filters will depend your own listening preference. But, as You can see, You can create cross-overs that have no overlap at all with Brickwall filters. Just some food for thought, as You research different devices. 😀
There is a lot You can do, I myself have just scratched the surface. 😉
Peter,
I know You are starting to dig into the digital realm. I do not know how deep You have dug into the possibilities of IIR and FIR processing. What I can mention, is with FIR processing, You can create 48dB/octave cross-over filters that are phase linear. You can also create brickwall cross-overs. To give You an idea of what these look like, I have included two screen shots from rePhase.
The solid red line shows the curves of the cross-over filters, and the dotted line shows the phase.
Whether or not You will prefer the sound of linear phase filters will depend your own listening preference. But, as You can see, You can create cross-overs that have no overlap at all with Brickwall filters. Just some food for thought, as You research different devices. 😀
There is a lot You can do, I myself have just scratched the surface. 😉
Attachments
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I think a hardware solution (like miniDSP) will be difficult to assemble and somewhat expensive. You might consider as a solution a computer with a good audio codec and 7.1 audio out, PLUS an outboard single-ended-to-balanced converter box to drive pro amps.
The computer should have:
a CD drive
The OS should be some kind of linux (I use Ubuntu for instance)
built in or added via a card, 7.1 audio (this gives you your analog input)
As an example of the above, I built a system around an ASRock Q1900 motherboard, which has an onboard ALC892 audio codec. The cost for the hardware was under $200 (although it is not in a case). This was for the motherboard, memory, a HDD, and a power supply.
The DSP can be done in software using ecasound and LADSPA. There is a good tutorial on this you can read here:
Digital Crossover/EQ with Open-Source Software: HOWTO | Richard's Stuff
I wrote a complete set of LADSPA DSP filters for crossovers, and other stuff, that you can download at the link in my signature. If you are interested in DIYing something, this is a great way to do it and you can create whatever filters you want (IIR, the ones that are like analog filters that you probably know well).
If you want a turn-key solution you will probably have to build one one way or another. I don't think you will find all of this functionality in a ready-to-go package. Software DSP is FREE and Linux is also FREE. With the computer audio approach, you are only paying for the hardware and it can be upgraded after some time to new hardware just by moving the files over to a new computer.
You already know what I use to get things done. A PC with multi channel sound card and JRiver for processing on Windows 7 Pro. This does all stereo playback as well as movies.
As soon as you enter FIR filter realm, you do need to consider you'll get audio/video sync problems as FIR filters introduce latency when used for time compensation. Within JRiver you can tailor that at will, I store movies on disk as well as my music library. It might provide a challenge to have JRiver do sound processing of a separate video player and make up for that latency.
It's fun to have all things at once but it would make more sense to take up this journey in steps. Leave the FIR filtering aside for a while and concentrate on a working solution using IIR first. As said a PC solution can get you everything (and more). It's up to you to determine the road you want to travel. A PC isn't a black box solution and needs it's own maintenance. A lot of people want that black box and dread a computer fail. I've been doing this computer road for a while and have upgraded my PC and still run the same tools. As a System Administrator it was a logical choice for me. My PC runs on Raid disks for reliability and still serves it's usual purpose as my main PC as well as HT rig and DSP. This won't be for everyone.
I've thought about a dedicated audio/Home Theatre PC but haven't had the need yet.
It's my CAD workstation and I've used the CAD program (Autodesk Inventor) while my son watches a movie with friends. Due to my profession I run a powerful workstation PC with Pro graphical cards. That comes in handy for the movie part within JRiver. I'm always running out of space though, running raid mirror needs a lot of hard disks and movies do take up a lot of space. Most of my library is filled with movies for my 10 year old son. My own movies are mostly stored on external disks 🙂.
A music library takes up less space in comparison so think it trough what your needs are.
As soon as you enter FIR filter realm, you do need to consider you'll get audio/video sync problems as FIR filters introduce latency when used for time compensation. Within JRiver you can tailor that at will, I store movies on disk as well as my music library. It might provide a challenge to have JRiver do sound processing of a separate video player and make up for that latency.
It's fun to have all things at once but it would make more sense to take up this journey in steps. Leave the FIR filtering aside for a while and concentrate on a working solution using IIR first. As said a PC solution can get you everything (and more). It's up to you to determine the road you want to travel. A PC isn't a black box solution and needs it's own maintenance. A lot of people want that black box and dread a computer fail. I've been doing this computer road for a while and have upgraded my PC and still run the same tools. As a System Administrator it was a logical choice for me. My PC runs on Raid disks for reliability and still serves it's usual purpose as my main PC as well as HT rig and DSP. This won't be for everyone.
I've thought about a dedicated audio/Home Theatre PC but haven't had the need yet.
It's my CAD workstation and I've used the CAD program (Autodesk Inventor) while my son watches a movie with friends. Due to my profession I run a powerful workstation PC with Pro graphical cards. That comes in handy for the movie part within JRiver. I'm always running out of space though, running raid mirror needs a lot of hard disks and movies do take up a lot of space. Most of my library is filled with movies for my 10 year old son. My own movies are mostly stored on external disks 🙂.
A music library takes up less space in comparison so think it trough what your needs are.
Thanks, it came out very nice. Yes the Najda has single ended output. I use it with balanced Hypex amps and use single ended to balanced cables (very easy to make). This works really well and still achieves 40dB of common mode noise rejection. The balanced input is the most important part and you already have that. The main benefits of a balanced output and input are the higher signal voltage level and increased noise immunity. Neither of these are necessary in a home setup. The Najda can put out 6V over the RCA due to it's analogue volume chip that has 15dB of boost, although I would be surprised if you ever need more than 1 to 1.5V. With mine set at 1.5V even with 15dB of cut due to the EQ I am using I cannot tolerate the volume at 0dB for more than a few seconds.
It certainly is and a very good one for a reasonable price.
This will make your choice very limited and you may need to consider what you really need the device to do. Only the Najda and MiniDSP devices are aimed at this market. The other options are either designed for sound reinforcement (BSS London, dbx drive rack etc) or studio audio interfaces. No major manufacturer makes a good digital crossover box (DEQX or Steinway Lyndorf's $$$$) suited to hifi use, they don't want you making a better job of the crossover than they did!
A good option that you could try right now would be to keep your analogue crossover but ditch the graphic EQ. Use Jriver or foobar and use parametric EQ in the computer to get your frequency response right. You can use a simple audio interface to give you analogue and digital input and then output to your existing DAC. Once you have this going then look at the DRC-FIR method that wesayso used to smooth things out even more and to fix up the impulse response.
Please be aware that FIR processing is not without it's tradeoffs too. Lots of people post as if it is magical and can do anything without penalty. The downsides to FIR processing are latency as wesayso mentioned but also pre-ringing. When you look at an impulse response that has FIR processing you will often see activity before the main impulse peak. If the measurement was taken properly then this is the pre-ringing from the FIR filter. There is much debate on how much pre-ringing is audible but if you get enough of it then the sound can be unnatural and 'weird'. In nature you can't hear something before it starts if that makes sense.
The latency comes from the number of taps that the filter uses, more taps = more latency. In order to process low frequencies you need more taps, so an FIR filter used at low frequencies will need a lot of taps for correct response and will have a lot of latency. Most computers using Brute FIR or Jriver will be able to process a very large number of taps, the minidsp or other hardware based systems will often have a limited number of taps available so you may not be able to realise everything you want with them.
Digital IIR EQ is not linear phase so when you use it you will have a corresponding change in phase, this can be helpful as when you flatten your frequency response you also tend to flatten your phase response.
You can avoid pre-ringing in an FIR filter if you use it only to change phase and not amplitude. So by using IIR EQ to change your frequency response and then use FIR to undo the phase turn from your crossover or other EQ you can get the frequency response and the phase response you want without pre-ringing.
I really don't understand the use of linear phase crossovers. You can get a better result from a standard crossover and then use rephase to fix the phase to whatever you want.
Also you do not need FIR processing to get steep crossover slopes. The steepness of the slope is limited by the software that you use but it is easy to cascade filters to achieve a steeper slope, i.e. use 2 x 24dB/oct filters at the same frequency and you get a 48dB/oct slope.
Sorry this ended up much longer than I intended...
The easiest all in one unit if you don't want to tinker with putting components together etc is something like the Behringer DCX2496. You can do everything on that little screen and it's powerful enough for most applications.
The downsides are that it doesn't do FIR and you still need to come up with something for input switching before the unit, as well as 6 channel volume control after.
The downsides are that it doesn't do FIR and you still need to come up with something for input switching before the unit, as well as 6 channel volume control after.
FIR filters can be built with zero pre-ringing, this is not an inherent 'feature' of FIR. Rather its an inherent feature of linear-phase filters. If the pre-ringing is at an ultrasonic frequency then its unlikely to be audible.
<snip>
Perhaps this is one way to avoid pre-ringing, but this isn't the only way. Just don't ask your FIR filters to be linear phase and the pre-ringing goes away.
Another option for DIY DSP under Windows is to use a USB based pro recording interface and SXQ, which is a crossover tool that runs under Windows. More info on SXQ is available here:
SXQ XO and EQ
There are lots of pro recording interfaces with multiples of inputs and outputs starting around $250 and up, and up, and up.
SXQ XO and EQ
There are lots of pro recording interfaces with multiples of inputs and outputs starting around $250 and up, and up, and up.
Wow, Thanks everyone for joining me here, I'm amazed at all the help offered!
First; Thanks Allen, I've learned something yet again. A Brick wall crossover seems like an answer to a couple of issues;
A; On rare occasions, to impress (scare) the unsuspecting, I'll play a few moments of Pink Floyd at levels peaking at 117 db, not at 1 meter, but at 12 feet. The RCF 18" drivers have a 50 mm P to P cone excursion, but I needed a Crest CA-18 to get it. The early demo's resulted in damaging a couple of mid drivers. The Rane Crossover claims 24 db/octave, and with LF/MF x-over point set to 150 Hz, there was way too much energy at 60 or even 40 Hz, getting to the mids.
I may have put some of you off, by revealing too much of my insanity, this early in the thread, but please believe me that I can also appreciate quality! A friend has a large pair of exotic electrostatic speakers--breathtakingly clear. I started to open my Pink Floyd Wish You Where Here CD case---he just said 'no'.
I have basically had PA systems as my home stereo for years, but now I want something HI FI, but also don't want to compromise on output level. To listen to a rock concert, at rock concert levels at home, and not have to endure horrible compression drivers, is very pleasing.
B; I have concern about interference patterns at the MF/HF x over point. A 'brick wall' x-over slope would alleviate that, I imagine.
I have some deep feeling that there is some kind of consequence regarding a verticle slope. I imagine (for example) a tone sweeping above and below the crossover point, even by one Hz. Switching rapidly from one set of drivers to another, would the rapid muting not create distortion in itself? It seems like there must be such absolute perfection in the alignment and phase of the HF/MF chains, to avoid what I imagine to be a switching noise. I don't want to close the door on this, my fears are completely unfounded, however, 48 db/octave seems to be steep enough to hopefully address my concerns, and readily available.
I am going to investgate and respond to all the replies I have just received but I am again pondering the miniDSP 4x10 Hd as a possibility, if my laptop can be used as a signal source, via optical output from external sound card.
Thanks all, I am going to investigate all your above solutions and welcome anymore.
PS: Fluid, my wife would completely disagree with you on one point; "In nature you can't hear something before it starts if that makes sense." She is constantly telling me about stuff that hasn't happened, and precious little makes sense!
Thanks again, Peter
PPS: The issue of FIR filtering or IIR, again something beyond me, at this point, I have to ask; even with the apparently lesser form (IIR) how bad is it compared to phase shifts or ringing issues caused by conventional graphic equalizers?
First; Thanks Allen, I've learned something yet again. A Brick wall crossover seems like an answer to a couple of issues;
A; On rare occasions, to impress (scare) the unsuspecting, I'll play a few moments of Pink Floyd at levels peaking at 117 db, not at 1 meter, but at 12 feet. The RCF 18" drivers have a 50 mm P to P cone excursion, but I needed a Crest CA-18 to get it. The early demo's resulted in damaging a couple of mid drivers. The Rane Crossover claims 24 db/octave, and with LF/MF x-over point set to 150 Hz, there was way too much energy at 60 or even 40 Hz, getting to the mids.
I may have put some of you off, by revealing too much of my insanity, this early in the thread, but please believe me that I can also appreciate quality! A friend has a large pair of exotic electrostatic speakers--breathtakingly clear. I started to open my Pink Floyd Wish You Where Here CD case---he just said 'no'.
I have basically had PA systems as my home stereo for years, but now I want something HI FI, but also don't want to compromise on output level. To listen to a rock concert, at rock concert levels at home, and not have to endure horrible compression drivers, is very pleasing.
B; I have concern about interference patterns at the MF/HF x over point. A 'brick wall' x-over slope would alleviate that, I imagine.
I have some deep feeling that there is some kind of consequence regarding a verticle slope. I imagine (for example) a tone sweeping above and below the crossover point, even by one Hz. Switching rapidly from one set of drivers to another, would the rapid muting not create distortion in itself? It seems like there must be such absolute perfection in the alignment and phase of the HF/MF chains, to avoid what I imagine to be a switching noise. I don't want to close the door on this, my fears are completely unfounded, however, 48 db/octave seems to be steep enough to hopefully address my concerns, and readily available.
I am going to investgate and respond to all the replies I have just received but I am again pondering the miniDSP 4x10 Hd as a possibility, if my laptop can be used as a signal source, via optical output from external sound card.
Thanks all, I am going to investigate all your above solutions and welcome anymore.
PS: Fluid, my wife would completely disagree with you on one point; "In nature you can't hear something before it starts if that makes sense." She is constantly telling me about stuff that hasn't happened, and precious little makes sense!
Thanks again, Peter
PPS: The issue of FIR filtering or IIR, again something beyond me, at this point, I have to ask; even with the apparently lesser form (IIR) how bad is it compared to phase shifts or ringing issues caused by conventional graphic equalizers?
Flexibility
Sorry I forgot to mention the latency issue with FIR DSP. 😱 I remembered at work. As others have mentioned, and I am glad they did, latency will not affect music playback, but cause syncing issues for movies. The only way around this is a PC based system. 😱
However, Wesayso and fluid had some good ideas also. Start with IIR filters, which You can do with the miniDSP. Get that as far as You can go, then try the phase linear versions. I am not sure if the miniDSP can do both at the same time, if not, You can try some of the PC software others have mentioned. At least You can try a lot of this stuff before You buy.
In fact, You might be able to try some stuff out on your laptop. How many outputs does your Creative DAC have? Is the sound quality of that DAC comparable to your CD player when played thru your current system?
As far as comparing the digital EQ compared to analog EQ, I can not speak it terms of ringing and the such, like others here. My experience is the digital EQ is more flexible as they are parametric and (at least with the devices I have owned over the years), the digital has less perceivable noise if You avoid all unnecessary AD to DA conversions. You can really dial things in with the digital.
Sorry I forgot to mention the latency issue with FIR DSP. 😱 I remembered at work. As others have mentioned, and I am glad they did, latency will not affect music playback, but cause syncing issues for movies. The only way around this is a PC based system. 😱
However, Wesayso and fluid had some good ideas also. Start with IIR filters, which You can do with the miniDSP. Get that as far as You can go, then try the phase linear versions. I am not sure if the miniDSP can do both at the same time, if not, You can try some of the PC software others have mentioned. At least You can try a lot of this stuff before You buy.
In fact, You might be able to try some stuff out on your laptop. How many outputs does your Creative DAC have? Is the sound quality of that DAC comparable to your CD player when played thru your current system?
As far as comparing the digital EQ compared to analog EQ, I can not speak it terms of ringing and the such, like others here. My experience is the digital EQ is more flexible as they are parametric and (at least with the devices I have owned over the years), the digital has less perceivable noise if You avoid all unnecessary AD to DA conversions. You can really dial things in with the digital.
Adding the AN-FP to a Minidsp DA8 is quite trivial. Extra digital inputs can be added as a ready made external box, so you don't need to worry about that.
For something simpler, you can use the MiniDSP 4x10HD or the 10x10HD. These have more inputs, but don't have FIR functionality.
A different, but possibly better solution is the Hypex DLCP. You need a DLCP, a control module, a PSU and an enclosure. Everything is modular, and easy to put together. If you explain to Modushop what you're doing, they probably have ready made drawings for the front and rear cutouts.
Johan-Kr
I agree but in the context of speaker crossovers and the kinds of processors being discussed FIR filters are generally being used with linear phase. For a simple crossover slope or parametric EQ seems like a lot of effort to make an FIR filter that includes phase shift.
If you are trying to make a very specific filter that is difficult to achieve with IIR then this makes sense.
IIR is not lessor than FIR it is just different. IIR EQ requires much less processing power so it is more efficient to use if it does what you need. Analogue and digital EQ is not really any different either, one is a digital representation of the other. FIR offers the ability to create filters that are either impossible or very difficult to achieve in the analogue domain.
Most speakers have significant phase shift due to the crossovers used and sound just fine.
The reason I have tried my best to explain it is that in order to improve the time response / transient response FIR filters are being used to correct the impulse response. This is really the last stage in perfecting any speaker design, some really believe in the importance of a time coherent speaker, others couldn't care less. With the availability of DSP and programs like rephase it is now much easier to achieve so why not?
Hi Folks;
I'm receiving info faster than I can absorb, but I am following up on every suggestion!
Mitch;
The Steinberg (UR824) seems to be be a well respected name, but first glance is leading me to believe that this is a recording studio device rather than (home) theatre unit.
Fluid, and all who have helped to explain the FIR issue;
"To FIR or not to FIR"! I have to confess that the flaws in my system are probably far greater than the lacking of DAC quality in my CD player or Creative Sound Card.
It almost seems that the unaddressed latency issue seems to weigh against the benefits. BTW, latency was another reason for the early retirement of my Rane DEQ-60L 'digital equalizer'---that, and it's additional AD and DA processes. The sync delay was noticeable (ever so slightly) with some video.
Wesayso;
I would prefer to have a system to that can function without my laptop, unless it is my media source. As far as measurements, I have used a stand alone RTA, until I installed REW on my laptop. SPL is straight forward but I am wrestling with the phase and impulse analysis. There is some indication that the minidsp-4x10-hd is (compatible, integrated with, or otherwise interfaces with) REW, and therefor could prove to be a useful learning tool, as well as upgrade to my system.
As far as digital inputs (attached image) there are three types. Am I correct to assume that I could connect multiple inputs and switch between them?
I could go on and on (even more) but my wife has suggested that I consider going to work.
I'm receiving info faster than I can absorb, but I am following up on every suggestion!
Mitch;
The Steinberg (UR824) seems to be be a well respected name, but first glance is leading me to believe that this is a recording studio device rather than (home) theatre unit.
Fluid, and all who have helped to explain the FIR issue;
"To FIR or not to FIR"! I have to confess that the flaws in my system are probably far greater than the lacking of DAC quality in my CD player or Creative Sound Card.
It almost seems that the unaddressed latency issue seems to weigh against the benefits. BTW, latency was another reason for the early retirement of my Rane DEQ-60L 'digital equalizer'---that, and it's additional AD and DA processes. The sync delay was noticeable (ever so slightly) with some video.
Wesayso;
I would prefer to have a system to that can function without my laptop, unless it is my media source. As far as measurements, I have used a stand alone RTA, until I installed REW on my laptop. SPL is straight forward but I am wrestling with the phase and impulse analysis. There is some indication that the minidsp-4x10-hd is (compatible, integrated with, or otherwise interfaces with) REW, and therefor could prove to be a useful learning tool, as well as upgrade to my system.
As far as digital inputs (attached image) there are three types. Am I correct to assume that I could connect multiple inputs and switch between them?
I could go on and on (even more) but my wife has suggested that I consider going to work.
Attachments
Peter,
From what you are describing now the MiniDSP 4x10 would probably be your best bet if you don't want to make the computer an integral part of your system. The Hypex and Najda are maybe nicer but more effort.
You can certainly switch inputs and presets with a remote and the LED's on the front panel indicate which is active. AES/EBU can also work with coaxial spdif in most cases just by wiring correctly or with the use of a couple of resistors at worst if you don't have a native device to attach.
Start simple with a basic crossover and EQ to get a good frequency response and take it from there. You can also use the Harsch crossover topology to get a good time response without needing to use any FIR filters or introduce any latency. XRK971 has a thread on it here
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/277691-s-harsch-xo.html
From what you are describing now the MiniDSP 4x10 would probably be your best bet if you don't want to make the computer an integral part of your system. The Hypex and Najda are maybe nicer but more effort.
You can certainly switch inputs and presets with a remote and the LED's on the front panel indicate which is active. AES/EBU can also work with coaxial spdif in most cases just by wiring correctly or with the use of a couple of resistors at worst if you don't have a native device to attach.
Start simple with a basic crossover and EQ to get a good frequency response and take it from there. You can also use the Harsch crossover topology to get a good time response without needing to use any FIR filters or introduce any latency. XRK971 has a thread on it here
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/277691-s-harsch-xo.html
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Thanks Fluid, and everyone, for your frank responses;
You mentioned starting with a basic crossover and EQ, do you mean devices other than the minidsp 4x10?
I have joined the minidsp forum, but I have not had the nerve to unleash my stream of dumb questions. A huge over-sight on my part again; I am currently using the front end of a Harmon-Kardon 2 channel receiver as pre-amp and bass and treble control (I'm putting off more of the purists here). Quite far removed from FIR / IIR debates, I have found the over-all variations between various CD's, flac files, and movie files to be intolerable without a bass and treble control. I assume that an existing remote can used by the 'learning' IR remote receiver to control volume and maybe input selection, but could my laptop, via the usb on the mini dsp be used to control bass and treble?....Or possibly switch between a number of EQ presets (less preferred)?
Thanks again, Peter
You mentioned starting with a basic crossover and EQ, do you mean devices other than the minidsp 4x10?
I have joined the minidsp forum, but I have not had the nerve to unleash my stream of dumb questions. A huge over-sight on my part again; I am currently using the front end of a Harmon-Kardon 2 channel receiver as pre-amp and bass and treble control (I'm putting off more of the purists here). Quite far removed from FIR / IIR debates, I have found the over-all variations between various CD's, flac files, and movie files to be intolerable without a bass and treble control. I assume that an existing remote can used by the 'learning' IR remote receiver to control volume and maybe input selection, but could my laptop, via the usb on the mini dsp be used to control bass and treble?....Or possibly switch between a number of EQ presets (less preferred)?
Thanks again, Peter
I believe fluid was suggesting starting out with basic EQ and cross-over functions with-in the miniDSP. The interface is a lot different, in that You will be creating the filters on your laptop and uploading them into the miniDSP. I am not sure how the miniDSP handles on the fly changes, but if it works like JRiver, you can change things instantly during playback. I hope someone who has used this device will chime in.
This is going to be quite a signal chain change for your system, passing the signal thru less devices. I look forward to your impressions. 😀
This is going to be quite a signal chain change for your system, passing the signal thru less devices. I look forward to your impressions. 😀
Hi Allen;
I have just subscribed to a forum for minidsp products specifically, and immediately got this response;
" yes, you can change the parameters in "real time" with your laptop. In this case, you would set up a low shelf for bass and a high shelf for treble, and adjust the gain"
I am very encouraged---again! This almost seems to good to believe, but it sounds like I might even be able to adjust the bass and treble without having to get off the sofa!! On another note, I just received ultra quiet fans for my monster bass amplifier. What is the point of 100 db plus. S/N ratio, if I have to listen to cooling fans.
I will continue to update this thread with any info I receive from the minidsp forum. I would like to purchase the UMIK-1 USB test mic, also. It seems like asking for the least trouble to use hardware and software that are somehow related.
I have just subscribed to a forum for minidsp products specifically, and immediately got this response;
" yes, you can change the parameters in "real time" with your laptop. In this case, you would set up a low shelf for bass and a high shelf for treble, and adjust the gain"
I am very encouraged---again! This almost seems to good to believe, but it sounds like I might even be able to adjust the bass and treble without having to get off the sofa!! On another note, I just received ultra quiet fans for my monster bass amplifier. What is the point of 100 db plus. S/N ratio, if I have to listen to cooling fans.
I will continue to update this thread with any info I receive from the minidsp forum. I would like to purchase the UMIK-1 USB test mic, also. It seems like asking for the least trouble to use hardware and software that are somehow related.
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