I've more reading to do:
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poptart said:
Sorry, but I thought I was...in my small world the best a man can be is...being an inspiration
But thankfull?...it will take more than that...and so far I can see Gedlee gain plenty, if we are into that aspect
Hell, who knows, we may even come up with something that he can use
But so far its only words and ideas...man, how easily words can be misplaced and misunderstood
tinitus said:
Just a point of clarification as it's clear you've not seen one of these waveguides in person. They are in no way similar to a lump of foam. They are solid as hell. I'm quite impressed with my waveguides and it sounds like Earl has refined the most recent waveguides even further.
The rest is not directed at your post, Tinitus.
....................................................................
Perhaps some of these assumptions are a bit premature given that few people in the thread have actually held one of these waveguides in their hands to make an evaluation of their quality. It's one thing to make a suggestion that might help Earl or offer a reasonable path to the DIYer, those things are in keeping with the spirit of the forum. It's quite another for posters to jump on a bandwagon and make unfounded accusations about the quality of a product they have not purchased. The current process for the 10" waveguides is more than adequate in my view.
I'm not sure if it is a manifestation of some frustration that more hardcore DIYers are experiencing, but it seems there must be some reason that many continue to act as though Earl is disappointing the community, despite obvious valuable contributions. I'm inclined to think he is responsible for a shift in the way some of us think about waveguides and further he has put these products within our reach. To me it's shocking that his desire to make a living off of his work causes many to hold him in contempt, because I feel quite the opposite.
a lot better off than before he came here. If you're like me you didn't even know this existed before he came along and taught you what it did and how to build your own. That's more than most of use have ever contributed to the world of DIY. It's not like he's owes us anything. Of course a lot of us do our own plumbing too so I'm sure he can understand why so many people want to have a go at making their own waveguides. I'm as interested as anyone in this construction thread and any new ideas that come out of it. One thing we have going for us as DIYers is we don't have to make a production line out of things, two is enough so who cares about mold longevity etc. And I like spending endless hours in the garage hand sanding things. It's a sickness, but also a cure
He's made diddlysquat. It's a startup.
There's enough info in this thread and on the Geddes on waveguide thread for you to make your own, if that's what you want to do.
Personally, I can't make two of them for the price of his kits. That's not counting the value of my time at minimum wage.
Earl has been extremely helpful. He's told you about his mistakes and the things that didn't work very well for him. That's valuable, I should think.
John's pulling your chain. He's competent enough to develop an OS profile and build it using his process - the profile is extremely straightforward compared to some of the the things he's done. But a B&C compression driver weighs @ 1.5 Kgs and that either requires a lot of metal or embedment in a substance like polyurethane to hold it at the end of a waveguide. I doubt material costs would be much different from Earle's or anyone else's. He says he can do em in bunches like bananas but he's got his equivalents to tooling costs....
Most guys who've made their own axisymetric horns/waveguides have either cut them out on a lathe, or built a mandrel using concentric sections of wood or MDF and filler, and either cast plastic, or molded fiberglass structure around it.
If you're not going to machine them on a lathe, then probably the most sensible way to do it is in two pieces. Cast the first inch or two out of epoxy with a proper fitment for the CD mounting plate, the rest in epoxy fiberglass, join the two with epoxy and wrap them in more epoxy fiberglass. Glue on the CD mounting plate. Take a while but might come out pretty good.
say what?
Where did I say I wasn't competent to make the profile. I said I don't have the time, nor do I need to. All along, I've offered to demonstrate this method as an alternative to clone an existing high-value piece of plumbing, be it by naysaying Geddes or anyone else. The only reason i can see for all this thrashing is fear that someone will come up with a cheap and ready method of reproduction and threaten profits. Welcome to the real world.
To be honest, I don't really much care about Geddes "waveguide technology" applied to loudspeakers other than my normal curiosity re: most stuff audio. I don't listen to music at 115dBC in my HT or audio system, and what i have doesn't use horns, so it doesn't suffer "horny-ness".
As for Geddes startup woes, heh, it's the real world, if you can't swim with the sharks, get out of the water. Been there suceeded beyond one's wildest dreams (Electroforming/plating, startup and running a pediatric practice, environmental consulting, that sort of thing). Don't lecture us on startup woes... that's truly ridiculous. The incompetence and arrogance demonstrated early on in the Nathan thread is well documented here and on the HT forums.
Not trying to compete with Geddes $15 waveguide costs... that's a phony # anyway. If he needs to charge $200 for 3 pieces of plastic, to recoup his "intellectual property" that's his perogative. However, noone should whine about others skills at producing similar parts at a competitive advantage... that's free enterprise
So, I'll complete the "proof of concept" part I'm doing here and go my merry way... will that make you happy, Frank?
John L.
FrankWW said:
Where did I say I wasn't competent to make the profile. I said I don't have the time, nor do I need to. All along, I've offered to demonstrate this method as an alternative to clone an existing high-value piece of plumbing, be it by naysaying Geddes or anyone else. The only reason i can see for all this thrashing is fear that someone will come up with a cheap and ready method of reproduction and threaten profits. Welcome to the real world.
To be honest, I don't really much care about Geddes "waveguide technology" applied to loudspeakers other than my normal curiosity re: most stuff audio. I don't listen to music at 115dBC in my HT or audio system, and what i have doesn't use horns, so it doesn't suffer "horny-ness"
. As for Geddes startup woes, heh, it's the real world, if you can't swim with the sharks, get out of the water. Been there suceeded beyond one's wildest dreams (Electroforming/plating, startup and running a pediatric practice, environmental consulting, that sort of thing). Don't lecture us on startup woes... that's truly ridiculous. The incompetence and arrogance demonstrated early on in the Nathan thread is well documented here and on the HT forums.
Not trying to compete with Geddes $15 waveguide costs... that's a phony # anyway. If he needs to charge $200 for 3 pieces of plastic, to recoup his "intellectual property" that's his perogative. However, noone should whine about others skills at producing similar parts at a competitive advantage... that's free enterprise
So, I'll complete the "proof of concept" part I'm doing here and go my merry way... will that make you happy, Frank?
John L.
mpmarino said:
Copper EF
Room Temp
CuSO4.xH20 ...... 75 g/l
H2SO4 ...... 188g/l
proprietary additive ..... as needed to maintain smooth deposit ~ 1 cc/amp-hr. consumption
plating rate ... ~.003"/hr. @ 20 ma/cm^2,
.012"/hr @ 80 ma/cm^2 <- with enhanced
agitation
Nickel EF
http://www.pfonline.com/articles/040102.html
plating rate ... ~ .002"/hr @ 30 ma/cm^2
~ .020"/hr @ 300 ma/cm^2 ,- w/enhnced agitation
Copper deposits at room temp ~ 99.99% pure with zero internal stress and tensile strength ~ 30 - 60 ksi
Nickel deposits at ~ 120 F ~ 99.9x pure with slight compressive or tensile stress (low values in the 100's psi, can be zero if properly controlled) ultimate tensile strength measured can be > 300 ksi
Copper deposits @ room temp >> no thermal stress on the mandrel. Nickel at slightly elevated temps (120 F) so slight mandrel expansion, but can be controlled... minimal effect and uniform. Nickel is much stronger than copper, can be plated more rapidly, but costs more / #
hope this helps
John L.
John
Am I reading wrong or did Frank say you WERE capable of developing the os profile, you seem to be irate for some reason, can we keep this civil, noone has insulted you, as for the startup issues, no-one was whining about it just stating that "SO FAR" its early days and Earl has made sweet F.A.
Chill, we all appreciate your experience/work/advice on the electroforming, its interesting as a production technique.
Nick.
Am I reading wrong or did Frank say you WERE capable of developing the os profile, you seem to be irate for some reason, can we keep this civil, noone has insulted you, as for the startup issues, no-one was whining about it just stating that "SO FAR" its early days and Earl has made sweet F.A.
Chill, we all appreciate your experience/work/advice on the electroforming, its interesting as a production technique.
Nick.
Grumpy_Git said:
well, yeah.. i think you're reading wrong. What part of "John's pulling your chain".. sounds civil and non-demeaning. Not to mention the apologist stance for Dr. Geddes...
But, okay... I'll take a deep breathe and try to ignore the bloviating and ill will from other parties...
John L.
John,
what are the premises to electroform something like this:
A couple of questions assuming the most cost-effective way to built a waveguide:
- What does a mandrell have to look like?
- How does it need to be prepared before use?
- How long does the electroforming process take for one piece?
- How much does it cost?
- What metal has dampening properties like fiberglass or wood?
Best, Markus
what are the premises to electroform something like this:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
A couple of questions assuming the most cost-effective way to built a waveguide:
- What does a mandrell have to look like?
- How does it need to be prepared before use?
- How long does the electroforming process take for one piece?
- How much does it cost?
- What metal has dampening properties like fiberglass or wood?
Best, Markus
I've just found out that I can do ABS printouts of solid-models at the local college. The cost is approx $5 per cubic inch of material. I'm going to begin work on a SolidWorks model of a small waveguide, maybe 10", and I can then see what the displacement is.
I'm thinking of designing relatively thin walls that I can add dampening and mass to later. Any tips on creating the OS curve in SolidWorks?
I'm thinking of designing relatively thin walls that I can add dampening and mass to later. Any tips on creating the OS curve in SolidWorks?
FYI
1) mandrel would be the shape of the inside surface of the waveguide, basically what you've drawn minus the flanges, i.e., a negative of the final piece, preferably with no re-entrant surfaces or non-draft areas that would "lock" the piece and prevent removal of the finished part
2) Mandrel needs to be conductive, but that's as simple as spraying with conductive paint. Ideal would be stainless steel, but most any material could work as long as it was dimensionally stable.
3) Depends on thickness, costs in tank, etc... but as stated above, std. deposition is ~ .002"/hr. in non-enhanced setup, so maybe 2 1/2 days for 1/8" of metal. However, given the desire for minimal resonance/damping issues, I'd probably limit the thickness to maybe .032" of copper or nickel, and then back up with something lossy (maybe zinc or lead plating, or sprayon polyurethane and such) to final desired surface as this backing is not critical to the horn shape
4) Cost? as in what would I charge? I'm not really interested in doing this as a business. Under best conditions, with a mandrel supplied ready for use, as a wild guess they'd be half or less compared to similar offerrings available elsewhere, depending on quantities ordered. Getting them done at a commercial electroformer, if you could find one to do it, would most likely not be cost effective unless you want scalable quantities (probably hundreds per piece, due to profit motive.
5) Dunno about like fiberglass or wood, but I'd guess zinc or lead might fill the bell.. oops!.. bill.
If I were making one of these myself, I'd fill an existing horn with some sort of casting resin (and parting medium) as an original mandrel, metallize this, then EF sufficient copper (maybe .032") to establish a sturdy final surface, then back up the rest with spray-on polyurethane. The flange on the back can be made as part of the electroform, but it's much simpler to just solder or glue on a mating flange made of plexiglass, metal, polyplastic, etc.
Or, I'd electroform the first few inches of the throat (much easier and most likely cheaper) and then attach an existing flare from an existing el-cheapo commercial horn to mate, matching the OS profile where it counts and approximating the OS as a tractrix, exponential, whatever further out.
John L.
markus76 said:
1) mandrel would be the shape of the inside surface of the waveguide, basically what you've drawn minus the flanges, i.e., a negative of the final piece, preferably with no re-entrant surfaces or non-draft areas that would "lock" the piece and prevent removal of the finished part
2) Mandrel needs to be conductive, but that's as simple as spraying with conductive paint. Ideal would be stainless steel, but most any material could work as long as it was dimensionally stable.
3) Depends on thickness, costs in tank, etc... but as stated above, std. deposition is ~ .002"/hr. in non-enhanced setup, so maybe 2 1/2 days for 1/8" of metal. However, given the desire for minimal resonance/damping issues, I'd probably limit the thickness to maybe .032" of copper or nickel, and then back up with something lossy (maybe zinc or lead plating, or sprayon polyurethane and such) to final desired surface as this backing is not critical to the horn shape
4) Cost? as in what would I charge? I'm not really interested in doing this as a business. Under best conditions, with a mandrel supplied ready for use, as a wild guess they'd be half or less compared to similar offerrings available elsewhere, depending on quantities ordered. Getting them done at a commercial electroformer, if you could find one to do it, would most likely not be cost effective unless you want scalable quantities (probably hundreds per piece, due to profit motive.
5) Dunno about like fiberglass or wood, but I'd guess zinc or lead might fill the bell.. oops!.. bill
. If I were making one of these myself, I'd fill an existing horn with some sort of casting resin (and parting medium) as an original mandrel, metallize this, then EF sufficient copper (maybe .032") to establish a sturdy final surface, then back up the rest with spray-on polyurethane. The flange on the back can be made as part of the electroform, but it's much simpler to just solder or glue on a mating flange made of plexiglass, metal, polyplastic, etc.
Or, I'd electroform the first few inches of the throat (much easier and most likely cheaper) and then attach an existing flare from an existing el-cheapo commercial horn to mate, matching the OS profile where it counts and approximating the OS as a tractrix, exponential, whatever further out.
John L.
John, thanks for the info!
If I understand you right we have the need for a two part mandrell because the flanges are a necessity for mounting the compression driver and the waveguide itself. So I guess spraying the mandrell with conductive paint isn't an option anymore. The mandrell itself has to bring in conductivity in the corresponding areas. What would be the cheapest way to build the mandrell?
The holes for the mounting screws need to be drilled later so they don't "lock" the electroformed piece to the mandrell. The finished waveguide needs to be further processed to remove ridges.
What does that mean in $? I have no idea what anyone would charge for electroforming.
Best, Markus
If I understand you right we have the need for a two part mandrell because the flanges are a necessity for mounting the compression driver and the waveguide itself. So I guess spraying the mandrell with conductive paint isn't an option anymore. The mandrell itself has to bring in conductivity in the corresponding areas. What would be the cheapest way to build the mandrell?
The holes for the mounting screws need to be drilled later so they don't "lock" the electroformed piece to the mandrell. The finished waveguide needs to be further processed to remove ridges.
What does that mean in $? I have no idea what anyone would charge for electroforming.
Best, Markus
mandrel design
this is nothing new. Microwave true waveguides need flanges.. these are always attached later. If the mandrel has the throat section built up thick enough (say .050") such that it can be soldered (or glued) into a (plastic or metal) flange with an appropriate hole drilled to fit, where's the second part of the mandrel? IOW, the funnel apex is sized to fit the hole in the apex flange. The large end flange can be made as part of the EF if the mandrel has a shelf as you've drawn.
Not sure what ridges you're speaking of.
None of this negates spray conductivizing. You're screw thread idea comes to mind for attaching to the driver.
Pricewise, I can't quote a $ amount due to forum rules (no soliciting) but I meant in volume (10 or more), they'd be less than 1/2 of the amount premium audio horns are being priced at elsewhere on the forum... maybe alot less.
John L.
markus76 said:
this is nothing new. Microwave true waveguides need flanges.. these are always attached later. If the mandrel has the throat section built up thick enough (say .050") such that it can be soldered (or glued) into a (plastic or metal) flange with an appropriate hole drilled to fit, where's the second part of the mandrel? IOW, the funnel apex is sized to fit the hole in the apex flange. The large end flange can be made as part of the EF if the mandrel has a shelf as you've drawn.
Not sure what ridges you're speaking of.
None of this negates spray conductivizing. You're screw thread idea comes to mind for attaching to the driver.
Pricewise, I can't quote a $ amount due to forum rules (no soliciting) but I meant in volume (10 or more), they'd be less than 1/2 of the amount premium audio horns are being priced at elsewhere on the forum... maybe alot less.
John L.