I'm relatively new to the forum but have been a long time lurker. I'm looking to take the plunge into DIY Audio for several reasons:
1) I enjoy Audio and am transition from heavy Home theater use to more of a dedicated 2ch listener.
2) I love learning, but I don't have the time to learn everything I want to learn so I bounce from hobby to hobby.
3) I enjoy building, wood working, tinkering with electronics, and DIY projects
Before I dive in too deep I want to make sure I can accomplish my goals:
1) Improve my sound quality and create something that competes with Paradigm S8's
2) Keep cost to a few thousand for a front pair of floor standing loudspeakers
Specific speaker requirements:
1) aesthetically pleasing, I find the S8's look awesome and like their narrow profile.
2) Full range. I have a sub (will likely get a better and/or more) for LFE in HT but in 2ch listening I prefer a full range speaker, thus my preference towards something like the S8's
3) Very transparent and articulate. I enjoy a 3 dimensional soundstage
4) Fast lower ranger. IMO B&W woofers fail to keep up with the mid's and highs and I don't feel as if the mid and high balance on the B&W's are as flat as the paradigms (thus using them as the reference point)
5) Reasonable SPL, it doesn't have to be as high as the S8's (92db)
Things I have/have not liked about other speakers:
RTi12's (currently own) had good range but lacked detail and subtly (expected)
802/800d - lacked low end performance, a bit warm on the high end. Not quick enough (I still really liked them)
Paradigm Studios 100v5's? - Better then my RTi12's but once in the room with the S6's the detail and accuracy was very very apparent
Magenpan - Sounded nice up high, lacked down low of course and size was a no go
Electrostats (don't remember model) - Don't like how directional the planer tends to be. Overall though, nice sounding upper end. Missing a faster lower end.
Signature S8 - Welcome to the New Official Paradigm® Website.
I realize I'm a noob and have a lot I don't know. Before jumping in to learn all of this I want to know if I can accomplish my goals.
I'll be driving them with my Rotel 500 watt RMS @8ohm monoblocks (1091's). I'll build a matching center channel and rears at some point as well.
As a secondary project, how cheaply could one build a set of bookshelf speakers that relatively compare with RTi6's? A neighbor of mine is using my 6's and a DIY project wouldn't be a bad choice for him considering cost.
1) I enjoy Audio and am transition from heavy Home theater use to more of a dedicated 2ch listener.
2) I love learning, but I don't have the time to learn everything I want to learn so I bounce from hobby to hobby.
3) I enjoy building, wood working, tinkering with electronics, and DIY projects
Before I dive in too deep I want to make sure I can accomplish my goals:
1) Improve my sound quality and create something that competes with Paradigm S8's
2) Keep cost to a few thousand for a front pair of floor standing loudspeakers
Specific speaker requirements:
1) aesthetically pleasing, I find the S8's look awesome and like their narrow profile.
2) Full range. I have a sub (will likely get a better and/or more) for LFE in HT but in 2ch listening I prefer a full range speaker, thus my preference towards something like the S8's
3) Very transparent and articulate. I enjoy a 3 dimensional soundstage
4) Fast lower ranger. IMO B&W woofers fail to keep up with the mid's and highs and I don't feel as if the mid and high balance on the B&W's are as flat as the paradigms (thus using them as the reference point)
5) Reasonable SPL, it doesn't have to be as high as the S8's (92db)
Things I have/have not liked about other speakers:
RTi12's (currently own) had good range but lacked detail and subtly (expected)
802/800d - lacked low end performance, a bit warm on the high end. Not quick enough (I still really liked them)
Paradigm Studios 100v5's? - Better then my RTi12's but once in the room with the S6's the detail and accuracy was very very apparent
Magenpan - Sounded nice up high, lacked down low of course and size was a no go
Electrostats (don't remember model) - Don't like how directional the planer tends to be. Overall though, nice sounding upper end. Missing a faster lower end.
Signature S8 - Welcome to the New Official Paradigm® Website.
I realize I'm a noob and have a lot I don't know. Before jumping in to learn all of this I want to know if I can accomplish my goals.
I'll be driving them with my Rotel 500 watt RMS @8ohm monoblocks (1091's). I'll build a matching center channel and rears at some point as well.
As a secondary project, how cheaply could one build a set of bookshelf speakers that relatively compare with RTi6's? A neighbor of mine is using my 6's and a DIY project wouldn't be a bad choice for him considering cost.
On the face of your thread title, I will offer the following:
Don't think linear regarding cost vs performance in the audio. It's a non-linear world that follows the law of diminishing returns. Oh, it will be linear for a while during the initial stages, but then as you spend more and more beyond a certain point, the added sonic benifits will not be in direct proportion to the money spent.
Don't think linear regarding cost vs performance in the audio. It's a non-linear world that follows the law of diminishing returns. Oh, it will be linear for a while during the initial stages, but then as you spend more and more beyond a certain point, the added sonic benifits will not be in direct proportion to the money spent.
That's absolutely true, even purchased brands. I feel where the quality I want is should be around the S8's with the cost a bit more reasonable.
For reference: My modified versions of the Zaph SR-71 were the first to beat my Paradigm Studio 20's. Paradigm may be mainstream, but the know what they are doing for the price. Doing better is not easy.
Unless you are building a well established design EXACTLLY, starting with a big full range system and worrying about aesthetics is not the place to start. Even the radius of the baffle edge makes a considerable difference. Change the width of a design to make it look better? Well, now you have a different speaker and need to do a different crossover. First build you want success, so follow the instructions.
I suspect most here will agree, execution is paramount, no matter how good the drivers are. A bad crossover will make an air-circ stink. But if you use an XT25 above 3K, it is a darn good tweeter for $35. Now, that said, it was not until I stepped up to the mid-line Seas that I got the distortion down to my wife's acceptance. A $25 tweeter, be it from Madisound, or in a $1000 store bought speaker, just like mstang says, there are thresholds. The difference from a $25 Vifa to a $60 Seas is huge. The difference to the $180 Scan Speak is small. I have no idea what a $500 tweeter sounds like. Out of my pay grade.
Here is a test. Go listen the the ugliest speaker for sale, the Vanderstein 2Ce. Take a lot of music you know. What are you going to do better? I will warn you, that is a really hard question. This is of course what makes this hobby so much fun.
There are some very good published designs, and some very good kits. Of course, there are some horrible published dissing and terrible kits too. Do some reading and check back. Someone may have well built what you are looking at.
I would love to hear the Gedlee's. The form factor does not fit my needs or I would have bought a set. Elisnore thread has been going on for years being refined. Look at the Linkwitz site for his ideas. Very different, but informative. Check out Zaph for his general comments, as well as TrueAudio. Check out the Seas site for their published designs.
Unless you are building a well established design EXACTLLY, starting with a big full range system and worrying about aesthetics is not the place to start. Even the radius of the baffle edge makes a considerable difference. Change the width of a design to make it look better? Well, now you have a different speaker and need to do a different crossover. First build you want success, so follow the instructions.
I suspect most here will agree, execution is paramount, no matter how good the drivers are. A bad crossover will make an air-circ stink. But if you use an XT25 above 3K, it is a darn good tweeter for $35. Now, that said, it was not until I stepped up to the mid-line Seas that I got the distortion down to my wife's acceptance. A $25 tweeter, be it from Madisound, or in a $1000 store bought speaker, just like mstang says, there are thresholds. The difference from a $25 Vifa to a $60 Seas is huge. The difference to the $180 Scan Speak is small. I have no idea what a $500 tweeter sounds like. Out of my pay grade.
Here is a test. Go listen the the ugliest speaker for sale, the Vanderstein 2Ce. Take a lot of music you know. What are you going to do better? I will warn you, that is a really hard question. This is of course what makes this hobby so much fun.
There are some very good published designs, and some very good kits. Of course, there are some horrible published dissing and terrible kits too. Do some reading and check back. Someone may have well built what you are looking at.
I would love to hear the Gedlee's. The form factor does not fit my needs or I would have bought a set. Elisnore thread has been going on for years being refined. Look at the Linkwitz site for his ideas. Very different, but informative. Check out Zaph for his general comments, as well as TrueAudio. Check out the Seas site for their published designs.
Spend on the drivers.
Boxes are only of effect at or below 200hz
Wayyy too many become so enamoured of the crates they cobble together in their man caves, that they forget what part is actually producing the sounds.. and why.
Cheapy drivers in simple boxes give the most rewarding results.
Could do like I did and buy a fresh pair of Lowthers, subsequently devote the next 2+ years to crafting increasingly complex enclosures in what ultimately proved (frankly) a Wild Goose Chase.
Some things one has to learn for themselves
G'luck on your adventure.
Boxes are only of effect at or below 200hz
Wayyy too many become so enamoured of the crates they cobble together in their man caves, that they forget what part is actually producing the sounds.. and why.
Cheapy drivers in simple boxes give the most rewarding results.
Could do like I did and buy a fresh pair of Lowthers, subsequently devote the next 2+ years to crafting increasingly complex enclosures in what ultimately proved (frankly) a Wild Goose Chase.
Some things one has to learn for themselves
G'luck on your adventure.
+1. The drivers in the S8 can't be terribly expensive and I think you could afford better ones in your budget (much better if you're not using so many), but better drivers won't buy you a better speaker design. If you're looking at kits / published designs, you'll need to find something you can hear or at least someone that is familiar with the design and with your reference, or accept the possibility that your choice may not meet your expectations. If you're looking at scratch building, you should be focused on learning how to do it (and getting set up with measurement gear), not besting $4000 speakers.
It would be interested to know what their drivers cost and what the actual performance is. I think there would be a lot of cost in the tweeter (it's Be) and the work they go through to make it sounds pretty extensive. The surrounds on the woofers also sounds unique but I can see a higher quality traditionally designed driver being as good.
This seemed to have a few details but could also be somebody just spouting off non-sense.
The Audio Beat - Paradigm Reference Signature S8 v3 Loudspeakers
Could do like I did and buy a fresh pair of Lowthers, subsequently devote the next 2+ years to crafting increasingly complex enclosures in what ultimately proved (frankly) a Wild Goose Chase.
Some things one has to learn for themselves
G'luck on your adventure.
When I was 16 I was lucky enough to find a shop in my neighbourhood which had Lowthers in all sorts of cabs on demo.
The hours I spend there cured me of having any interest in them for life.
Lowthers remain my benchmark for a truly terrible speaker to this day.
Leaning back on my old days in manufacturing....
In context now, I am a fan of Paradigm. ( Well, a bit pushy in the mids, but that's their market) I doubt their cost for a tweeter is more than $20. Cheap? Heck no! That would probably be a $250 retail driver if the volume was high enough. Is the Scan Speak or Focal better? Don't know. Can't afford one. I know how good my mid-line Seas are. Good enough I am looking elsewhere for the next step up.
Parts cost is one very small part of retail price. Heck, they can't even ship a speaker like that UPS, so you are talking common carrier. If you work margins back from $8000 retail to the out the door production cost, I would be surprised if it was over $200 each. I doubt a retail store could have a set on the floor if they were not looking at 100% margin. Too expensive and too low a velocity. You also need to remember, this is their flagship. They don't intend to sell many. They have to have features that make them desirable and get color glossy reviews so they can sell a ton of Monitor 9's and hope to up-sell you a Studio 60. That's how the world works my friend.
Might I offer a tip? Don't mention "spouting off" and post a link to a review in the same message. Kind of calling the kettle black if you get my meaning.
OK, you still want to build better ones? Dumptruck is giving you a hint. I think I am pretty good at it. I have a pretty good lab and have building them off and on for 35 years. I have a degree in electronics. I am not a total noob. Fool maybe, but not noob. Finally, last year did I build my first pair that my wife approves of. 6 1/2 inch Seas two ways. I will put them against what the retails stores have in the 2 to 3K range for a monitor, if I spent the time for a buffed paint job. (that ain't cheap!) Hang onto the Paradigms. Use them as a benchmark while you learn what this is all about. Maybe someday you can best them. That is the cool thing about speaker DIY, you can. I can't build a car as good as my Morgan was, let alone my GTI. Someday, I may build an amp as good as my Parasound. Naw, probably not. John is just too darn good at it. I did best my Hafler though.
In context now, I am a fan of Paradigm. ( Well, a bit pushy in the mids, but that's their market) I doubt their cost for a tweeter is more than $20. Cheap? Heck no! That would probably be a $250 retail driver if the volume was high enough. Is the Scan Speak or Focal better? Don't know. Can't afford one. I know how good my mid-line Seas are. Good enough I am looking elsewhere for the next step up.
Parts cost is one very small part of retail price. Heck, they can't even ship a speaker like that UPS, so you are talking common carrier. If you work margins back from $8000 retail to the out the door production cost, I would be surprised if it was over $200 each. I doubt a retail store could have a set on the floor if they were not looking at 100% margin. Too expensive and too low a velocity. You also need to remember, this is their flagship. They don't intend to sell many. They have to have features that make them desirable and get color glossy reviews so they can sell a ton of Monitor 9's and hope to up-sell you a Studio 60. That's how the world works my friend.
Might I offer a tip? Don't mention "spouting off" and post a link to a review in the same message. Kind of calling the kettle black if you get my meaning.
OK, you still want to build better ones? Dumptruck is giving you a hint. I think I am pretty good at it. I have a pretty good lab and have building them off and on for 35 years. I have a degree in electronics. I am not a total noob. Fool maybe, but not noob. Finally, last year did I build my first pair that my wife approves of. 6 1/2 inch Seas two ways. I will put them against what the retails stores have in the 2 to 3K range for a monitor, if I spent the time for a buffed paint job. (that ain't cheap!) Hang onto the Paradigms. Use them as a benchmark while you learn what this is all about. Maybe someday you can best them. That is the cool thing about speaker DIY, you can. I can't build a car as good as my Morgan was, let alone my GTI. Someday, I may build an amp as good as my Parasound. Naw, probably not. John is just too darn good at it. I did best my Hafler though.
I think I figured out the full range attraction. People with very limited hearing. They can't hear what they are missing! Then there are some who by reading enough of their own relational, believe crossovers are evil and have convinced themselves that cone and wizzer breakup is a substitute for a real tweeter. It's a big hobby. Be happy.
At the time I was dead set on back-loaded horns and got some Fostex FP253 which were vastly superior to the Lowthers. Especially after I added a couple of JBL 2402s and a friend bought some Coral Beta 10 for a quarter of the Lowthers cost which were also much better.
Mind we created quite a mess building 4 BLHs in my bedroom armed only with a drill, a rasp, some sandpaper and glue.
Happy days...
Thanks for the advice! I didn't mean the spouting off in a bad context, just meant that it may be marketing material that I really don't know the merit of because again, I'm new to the hobby.
I'll do some reading based on dumptrucks advice, but overall it sounds like it's possible, but likely not cheap or easy. I've been doing a bit of reading today on cabinet diffraction and understanding how one can design to accommodate the phenomenon. My background is computer science with some electronics knowledge (write hardware diagnostics for a living) so math and electrical engineering I understand fairly well and wood working I do as a hobby.
Parasound amps, what model(s)? I really really wanted those JC1's at some point!
Have a look at the Temperence III on this website. It is very similar to your target goal. Seems well regarded too.
Strassacker: Speaker Building, Components
Click on the quick link at the top of the screen (right hand side).
Strassacker: Speaker Building, Components
Click on the quick link at the top of the screen (right hand side).
Rofl ....
@OP..
The Morel MDT30's are still available , this would be my choice for tweeter , IMO better than seas, which are good too , just a bit soft sounding ..
Regards
That's an interesting speaker and might meet my needs. I'm curious if I can find a kit in the US, would need to import it, or just make it up from the listed components.
The crossover and cabinet design are available on that web page by clicking on "Temperence Building Instructions". You may or may not be able to get hold of Newtonics drivers in the US.
In theorey, the European vendors should knock sales tax off thier listed prices for exports to the US. You will of course have to pay import duty at your end.
In theorey, the European vendors should knock sales tax off thier listed prices for exports to the US. You will of course have to pay import duty at your end.
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