Always glad to "help". 🙄 You know, I'm somewhat psychic and, after your earlier post, anticipated you making the "right" decision! 🙂 Trust me, Danny, as I indicated earlier, you'll gain far more in "good will" than any perceived loss. As you noted, all Ed cares about with this design is that DIYers enjoy it. If it can be made better, he's all for it (as am I).
I confess I love my pair of AR-DIYs. I'm just a poor slob who got bit by the Hi-Fi bug watching my dad build a Dynaco Pat-4 and Stereo 120 35 years ago. Built my first pair of speakers at 16 and a Dynaco kit of my own at 17. Can't afford to spend much on this hobby (have teenagers and a wife to raise
), but I love music and the AR-DIYs are very musical to me. If Danny's crossover design makes 'em more musical, well, all the better!And Danny, obviously you're not the only one who is impolitic at times! 🙂
Kanga said:
A note on your terminology... i am sure you mean markup here (ie something costs $1 and sells for $2 it has a 50% margin...to have a 100% margin something has to be free and sell for greater than $0.
When i worked in retail, selling decent product -- not housebrands, there was very little stuff that had 40 points in it -- at high volumes some stuff would get 40 points between cost and recommended sell ... the average margin is probably more like 25 and the fierce discounters are probably working at closer to 10 or 15. There are typically higher margins in house brands, cables, some cartridges, accessories & such.
BigDaddyD said:
I did that. Your post was quite rude.
IMO you put far too much faith in the statistically flawed tests commonly used. In the end all that is important is that one enjoys the music. So trust your ears, practise often, and enjoy.
BigDaddyD said:
It is, but i am very happy to have the pros, who spend all their day breathing hifi, to share what they will. Whatever IP Danny wants to keep to himeself is up to him (and it is forum policy to respect that) -- he brings insights and experiences with him that we can all benefit from.
dave
Yep, that's just what young earth creationists say. Unless you can point to valid stuides demonstrating the "statistical flaws" in ABX double blind studies, you're operating on the same kind of "faith" they are.
The impact of ABEs (attitudes, beliefs and expectations) on individual perceptions are indisputable, well researched as a phenomena and are extraordinarily complex. They do not reside in the conscious or intentional mind and so cannot be readily dismissed. In other words, these are things the individual cannot control without help. This is why pharmecutical companies do tests on new drugs with groups getting placebos as well as the drug and nothing. The power of an individual's belief system is simply huge.
BTW, however, its interesting that your point, in a roundabout way, makes mine. The reports I heard about the reception of the AR-DIY at a DIY conference earlier this year stated that people's initial reaction was very favorable until measurements showed the 3 to 9 db dip at the 3000hz level. Then attitudes toward the little speaker changed. What can we learn from this? People's belief systems can override what they think they hear. In addition, what people think they hear is determined in large part by their belief systems. The only way to remove the belief system from the equation is to do blind listening tests, preferably double blind with ABX.
And there's no argument about that but...I believe I already elucidated my argument for why, regarding the crossover mod, he couldn't "have his cake and eat it too." IOW, it's somewhat disingenuous to take a design freely offered to the public, trash it, claim to make it better by re-designing it and then make people pay for the re-design - and still expect to be regarded as someone to be "respected" for his "insights and experiences".
Danny and I have hashed this out. I think he's a good guy and, from what I've looked at on his website, he's got some good designs. I'm not convinced that Sonicaps "sound" 4 times as good as Solen or that copper foil inductors "sound" better than traditionally wound air core inductors, so I'm not sure I'd be willing to purchase a complete kit (minus the cabs) from him, but that's me. I would like to read some unsolicited reviews of his speakers by people who've made them. I was hoping there would be some up at AudioReview, but if there are, I can't find them. 🙁
At anyrate, I apologize my first post was quite so rude, though I didn't really think it was all that rude nor am I particularly enamored of forums that will moderate posts based on a subjective perception of rudeness - I have a hard enough time judging people's attitudes when talking to them face to face, on the Internet it is notoriously easy to misconstrue someone's words. However, this is your forum, you don't know me and don't really care what I think, but, like Danny, I'm not so bad a guy, really. 🙂
It was not your place to post it on other forums after I entrusted you with the information for your own use now was it?
Funny how a story can get twisted after it has been passed around a little.
Dude, I was there. I hosted the event.
Here is what happened.
Most, including myself thought the AR DIY speakers sounded pretty good as most of us were all listening to selections we were not familiar with.
From about 2kHz and down it sounded fine.
When we played music that we were familiar with it became apparent to just about everyone that something was a miss.
So we used an A/V-1 as a reference and did some A/B tested.
Then it really became apparent.
We played a piece of music that had a really nice trumpet section in one part of the music. The A/V-1 handled it beautifully, but the AR DIY's barely even played it. It was like you just killed that section of the music.
If you never heard it before you might not ever know what you are missing, but making the comparison really made the hole in the response stand out.
It was even worse if you were standing at the back of the room and not seated. In the standing position the suck out was nearly 15db. Hey just try standing up while listening to them.
Measurements of the AR DIY speaker were also made, at the event, after placing some card board around the tweeter to do away with the edge reflection from the tweeter not being countersunk. This help minimize the suck out some too as part of the problem was being caused by the edge reflections.
In the upgrade I did on the pair that was given to me I really considered countersinking the tweeter to do away with this problem, but I didn't feel like this was a mod others could do very easily if anyone else were to ever implement the upgrade I was about to perform, so I decided to work around it and compensate for it with the network, and see if it could be worked around.
And make people pay for it? Oh my Gosh. Listen to yourself. You and the rest of those guys at AR whining that one must pay $200. to get my upgrade.
Dude, it was given freely to the company that offers this thing as a kit. They tried it. They like it better, and they will offer it as the new network for this speaker. Obviously they feel it sounds better.
Anyone else ordering the kit gets the new network design as part of the kit. It won't be any higher than it ever was unless they increase the price marginally to cover a few addition components.
They will also offer the new design as an upgrade. In other words anybody that they already sold the kit to can call them up and order the same budget components that come in the kit for about $50.
I have no desire to compete them on selling budget components. We don't even use or have any of those budgeted components other than us stocking some Axon poly caps.
Our own web site even recommends to go there for the parts.
So, one, I don't have the budget parts, and two, I don't want to compete with them.
If, IF!, someone wanted to build the network with the Alpha Core foil inductors, Sonicaps, and Mills resistors that we carry, I am willing to sell it to them.
The needed parts cost slightly over $200. I marked it down to $199. If someone wants it I can sell it to them, period. If they don't want it that's fine too, but no need to whine about the cost of high end components. If you don't want them or don't think the high end components are worth it simply do not buy them. But one does not need to spend an additional $150. to have my upgrade.
When a particular design is liked by a builder and they post their views on there favorite message board and others on that board try them, it can become popular only on one board (Ed's speaker) or a few places.
I do not have a following there, or much of one here either.
Try visiting other forums. I couldn't ask for better reviews.
The Audio Asylum is a great place for GR Research feedback. Rarely does the list of threads scroll past without a mention of GR Research.
See the speaker Asylum. Try a search: http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/speakers/bbs.html
Our speakers are also among the most reviewed speakers over there. In fact our discontinued Paradox-1 has more reviews than any other speaker. Check out the much more expensive speakers that they compare it to.
See Reviews: http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/re...goryID=Speakers
A search on the Home Theater Talk Forum will also give you lots of information.
http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htforum/index.php
We also have our own forums at the Audio Circle: http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/ Lots of reviews can be found there.
The reviews section there is good too.
And at the Harmonic Discord: http://www.harmonicdiscord.com/forums/
A great review of the A/V-1 is about to be published by Secretes of Home Theater.
Other published reviews can be seen in older issues of Bound for Sound, The Audio Critic, The Sensible Sound, and The Absolute Sound, plus one audio magazine in Indonesia.
We also have speakers on tour allowing free in home auditions.
You asked for reviews.
BigDaddyD said:
Unfortuneatly i have not been able to find the discussion between two statisticians that showed the flaws -- an ABX test can only prove statistically that 2 things sound different, it cannot tell you that 2 things sound the same -- i have enuff statistics (an honours BSc degree in Statistics) to have followed their argument, understand it, and how twisted it makes the way people use ABX as an argument look.
I have also had enuff experience to be comfortable with the acuity of my hearing -- tested under double blind conditions (ie testing to see which way the 2-prong plug was oriented in the wall-plug -- everything else the same) to be confident of trusting my ears.
I am much less comfortable with people throwing their faith behind a flawed test (mostly flawed in the way people apply the results) that has little to do with the emotional enjoyment of music.
dave
Thanks for the links to reviews, Danny, I'll look 'em up. You're account differs from the one I got, also from someone "who was there". No matter. Eye witness accounts differ all the time, to no end of frustration for the police. Just reaffirms my comment about ABEs.
As for when you write:
I'm getting a little tired of legitimate criticism being called "whining". First of all, the design for the AR-DIY has been around for at least a couple years. Ed offered it as a design free to the public with no monetary gain on his part whatsoever (save the "good will" it buys him and the inclination of people to do business with him). He made schematics, drawings, parts lists (including catalog numbers from MCM and worked with Madisound to offer a pre-built crossover), and offered lots of ad hoc help to any who asked. IOW, you didn't have to buy the parts to get the design.
Second, yes, Speaker City offers the kit, but for a long time didn't offer it to Ed's specs and used his pictures, diagrams, schematics, etc., with no attribution. It has only been in the last six months or so that they have offered a kit based on Ed's specs and properly attributed. Further, while they still have Ed's original diagrams and schematics up at their site, I have seen no listing of your modified crossover. Will they make the design available to those who don't buy the parts from them?
Danny, no one is "whining" about you making money anymore than I think you're a money grubbing, self-centered, egomaniacal jerk who has a reputation as "damning with faint praise" designs not from him. I had a legitimate beef and you even recognized at least the possibility of it in an earlier post.
So, I'm going to try your modifcation when I get the chance. If it truly makes this speaker as much better as you claim I'll post my statement of that anywhere you'd like. I wish I *had* $200 right now to spend with you on the parts along with another $70 or so to buy 'em from Speaker City and compare the two versions along with the original. Unfortunately I have too many other obligations.
One more thing, what was the "piece of music" you played with "beautiful trumpet" in it? I'd like to give a listen myself.
As for when you write:
I'm getting a little tired of legitimate criticism being called "whining". First of all, the design for the AR-DIY has been around for at least a couple years. Ed offered it as a design free to the public with no monetary gain on his part whatsoever (save the "good will" it buys him and the inclination of people to do business with him). He made schematics, drawings, parts lists (including catalog numbers from MCM and worked with Madisound to offer a pre-built crossover), and offered lots of ad hoc help to any who asked. IOW, you didn't have to buy the parts to get the design.
Second, yes, Speaker City offers the kit, but for a long time didn't offer it to Ed's specs and used his pictures, diagrams, schematics, etc., with no attribution. It has only been in the last six months or so that they have offered a kit based on Ed's specs and properly attributed. Further, while they still have Ed's original diagrams and schematics up at their site, I have seen no listing of your modified crossover. Will they make the design available to those who don't buy the parts from them?
Danny, no one is "whining" about you making money anymore than I think you're a money grubbing, self-centered, egomaniacal jerk who has a reputation as "damning with faint praise" designs not from him. I had a legitimate beef and you even recognized at least the possibility of it in an earlier post.
So, I'm going to try your modifcation when I get the chance. If it truly makes this speaker as much better as you claim I'll post my statement of that anywhere you'd like. I wish I *had* $200 right now to spend with you on the parts along with another $70 or so to buy 'em from Speaker City and compare the two versions along with the original. Unfortunately I have too many other obligations.
One more thing, what was the "piece of music" you played with "beautiful trumpet" in it? I'd like to give a listen myself.
I can't help think when I read this, that there must have been something seriously wrong technically with that pair of speakers. I have CDs and SACDs that have trumpets, believe me they sound very real. I particularly pay attention to female vocalists and piano pieces; there is nothing that I can determine that is off. I certainly don't have a golden ear, but surely if these speakers have such a gross flaw, even I should be able to pick it up. I would also think that somewhere in all the reviews posted about this speaker there would certainly have been some poster that would have pointed this out.
It would be a shame if all this debate is over one pair of a technically flawed speakers.
I've a fundemental frequency chart. You may be surprised. There are very few musical sounds fundementally above the 3000hz. The trumpet is in the 150hz to 1000hz area. Of course there are also the addition of harmonics.
Just something that makes me go hmmmmmmm.
This is my last say in this post. My only interest in posting the pics of the ARdiys was to show a different look. For all the keen DIYers they may see an opportunity to try something different with their favourite speaker build.
On to my next project.
Cheers.
Okay we're done.
Big Daddy,
I think I have heard enough from you.
Now you are calling me money grubbing because I sell high end components?
I can assure you the margins are not that great.
And unlike a competitor that you mentioned favoring on another forum I do not sell our components above suggested retail.
In fact, you don't know me at all.
Give them time, their web additions do not come up over night over there.
And what difference does it make if they post the network or not. You already have. Which by the way I do not think was very ethical of you either.
And you think I am going to send you out free Sonicaps for your evaluation? Ha, ha, ha, I only send out samples to those I trust. You have already demonstrated your trustworthiness.
My respect for you no longer exists.
You guys want industry professionals to participate here so you can whine about the cost of this or that, expect to be given everything for free, then call the guy names?
No thanks. You are much better off without me.
Big Daddy,
I think I have heard enough from you.
Now you are calling me money grubbing because I sell high end components?
I can assure you the margins are not that great.
And unlike a competitor that you mentioned favoring on another forum I do not sell our components above suggested retail.
In fact, you don't know me at all.
Give them time, their web additions do not come up over night over there.
And what difference does it make if they post the network or not. You already have. Which by the way I do not think was very ethical of you either.
And you think I am going to send you out free Sonicaps for your evaluation? Ha, ha, ha, I only send out samples to those I trust. You have already demonstrated your trustworthiness.
My respect for you no longer exists.
You guys want industry professionals to participate here so you can whine about the cost of this or that, expect to be given everything for free, then call the guy names?
No thanks. You are much better off without me.
Danny, I specifically said I wasn't calling you these things. You really need to read what I write more carefully. The point, which was admittedly being made somewhat tongue in cheek, was that while events might lend themselves to this interpretation, I specifically did not interpret them that way and that, after "conversing" with you, thought you a "good guy". That's why I thought the comment about "whining" to be unfair.
Look, I'll admit I failed to read an earlier post from you that said you would send the design to those who asked as long as they agreed not to post it on a public forum. I didn't even realize you had made that offer until you reiterated to me in a post. I made no such agreement with you but if I had been aware of your earlier conditions I would have abided by them. I actually do regret having posted it first.
I am unsure to whom you're referring - PE?
Let's remember you made the offer, I didn't ask. Believe me, I wasn't holding my breath. As to "trusting" me, well that's your perogative, but posting that schematic didn't cost you a penny and may likely bring you business. Sheesh, man, how do survive in business being as thin skinned and thick headed as you are? BTW, those aren't "names", simply observations of reactions. Again, I wasn't calling you names in the earlier post, go back and read that part carefully.
okay
Alright Big Daddy, understood.
Looks like maybe we both needed more careful reading.
I also should have reiterated it in the e-mail to you when I sent it instead of assuming you read the post in the thread we were going back and forth in.
Maybe we will have more friendly dealings in the future, and put behind us the argumentative nature this thread had at times.
Later,
Alright Big Daddy, understood.
Looks like maybe we both needed more careful reading.
I also should have reiterated it in the e-mail to you when I sent it instead of assuming you read the post in the thread we were going back and forth in.
Maybe we will have more friendly dealings in the future, and put behind us the argumentative nature this thread had at times.
Later,
Now that post, Danny, I can agree with 100%! I got a feeling we're pretty similar, personality wise. 😉 And I sincerely wish you all the success in the world in with your business!
Now, whose your daddy?!!! 😀 ROTFLOL!!!
- Status
- Not open for further replies.