Measurements
Measurements do not lie, but they do not tell the whole story.
For instance a speaker may have a smooth on axis response measurement, but it will not show you a big dip in the response just off axis that will cause the overall in room response to be uneven.
This is why I always take measurements on and off axis, horizontally, and vertically, and post them as well.
A flat response does indicate a certain level of accuracy. It will not tell you the complete story. There could still be phase problems or polar tilt issues, etc.
But there is no argument for striving for a not flat response as being desirable, and there is no excuse for a 10db dip in response.
I for one would never want an equalizer in my signal path. Adjustments to the output in one place or another will still not fix time arrival problems or polar tilt issue that plagued this speaker.
MCM, surely you are not stating that you would take a speaker with a relatively flat response, and free from other problems, and using an equalizer, you take hold of the level control at 3kHz and pull it all the way down. Then state to all that it sounds good to you?
This is exactly what you would have to do to replicate the response of this speaker.
What your ears are hearing involves a pretty big suck out, and you are missing a lot of what is in the actual recording that you are listening to.
If this is fine with you, then that is great. I fell no need to convince you otherwise. I can't tell you what you like or dislike.
I can tell you that it can be even better by a good margin, and it doesn't cost much to upgrade for yourself and find out.
For some reason you seem to think I may have shared with you something that is a matter of opinion.
The upgrade being now offered is not a matter of opinion. The upgrade corrected problems that were clearly measured, not just by myself but by others as well.
The upgrade corrected problems period.
The result of the upgrade has caused others, who have heard the before and after, to form an opinion that it has improved in many ways.
Most look forward to inexpensive upgrade that make their music listening experiences better. That is why this upgrade came about.
Oh, I did not simply change it to my liking. It still does not reach my standards.
What I did was correct the problems of a design that will give those who build it a much better sounding pair of speakers in the end.
In fact my new network will now be the standard network design that comes with the kit for those that purchase the kit from Speaker City.
I thought your cabinet design looked very creative, imaginative, and good looking.
I am not in the business of educating those that try to compete with my own company. We never post our schematics.
If anyone would like to try the new design that has the old one they can contact Speaker City and purchase the new network. I am guessing the parts cost to be around $50.
Anyone purchasing it will clearly see the values used and the network typology used to correct the problems if they are interested to know for some reason.
Since most have no idea what any of the network really does it really has no value for most anyway.
If some one wished to purchase the network from us I would sell it to them. It is not any different from the values used in the network available at Speaker City. It is not a better, or premium design.
We just do not use or have the lower cost budget type components, and I will not try to offer a lower cost alternative.
If you want to upgrade with minimal expense purchase it from Speaker City.
From us, the foil inductors, Mills resistors, and Sonicaps needed for this network is over $200. I just priced it down to $199. as a packaged deal for those that want to add a higher quality network.
More importantly than what values are used is what it accomplished. The before and after can clearly be seen in the measurements on our web site. Speaker City will also be adding a link to our web page showing the before and after effects of the new network.
Any more questions? 🙂
Measurements do not lie, but they do not tell the whole story.
For instance a speaker may have a smooth on axis response measurement, but it will not show you a big dip in the response just off axis that will cause the overall in room response to be uneven.
This is why I always take measurements on and off axis, horizontally, and vertically, and post them as well.
A flat response does indicate a certain level of accuracy. It will not tell you the complete story. There could still be phase problems or polar tilt issues, etc.
But there is no argument for striving for a not flat response as being desirable, and there is no excuse for a 10db dip in response.
I for one would never want an equalizer in my signal path. Adjustments to the output in one place or another will still not fix time arrival problems or polar tilt issue that plagued this speaker.
MCM, surely you are not stating that you would take a speaker with a relatively flat response, and free from other problems, and using an equalizer, you take hold of the level control at 3kHz and pull it all the way down. Then state to all that it sounds good to you?
This is exactly what you would have to do to replicate the response of this speaker.
What your ears are hearing involves a pretty big suck out, and you are missing a lot of what is in the actual recording that you are listening to.
If this is fine with you, then that is great. I fell no need to convince you otherwise. I can't tell you what you like or dislike.
I can tell you that it can be even better by a good margin, and it doesn't cost much to upgrade for yourself and find out.
For some reason you seem to think I may have shared with you something that is a matter of opinion.
The upgrade being now offered is not a matter of opinion. The upgrade corrected problems that were clearly measured, not just by myself but by others as well.
The upgrade corrected problems period.
The result of the upgrade has caused others, who have heard the before and after, to form an opinion that it has improved in many ways.
Most look forward to inexpensive upgrade that make their music listening experiences better. That is why this upgrade came about.
Oh, I did not simply change it to my liking. It still does not reach my standards.
What I did was correct the problems of a design that will give those who build it a much better sounding pair of speakers in the end.
In fact my new network will now be the standard network design that comes with the kit for those that purchase the kit from Speaker City.
I thought your cabinet design looked very creative, imaginative, and good looking.
I am not in the business of educating those that try to compete with my own company. We never post our schematics.
If anyone would like to try the new design that has the old one they can contact Speaker City and purchase the new network. I am guessing the parts cost to be around $50.
Anyone purchasing it will clearly see the values used and the network typology used to correct the problems if they are interested to know for some reason.
Since most have no idea what any of the network really does it really has no value for most anyway.
If some one wished to purchase the network from us I would sell it to them. It is not any different from the values used in the network available at Speaker City. It is not a better, or premium design.
We just do not use or have the lower cost budget type components, and I will not try to offer a lower cost alternative.
If you want to upgrade with minimal expense purchase it from Speaker City.
From us, the foil inductors, Mills resistors, and Sonicaps needed for this network is over $200. I just priced it down to $199. as a packaged deal for those that want to add a higher quality network.
More importantly than what values are used is what it accomplished. The before and after can clearly be seen in the measurements on our web site. Speaker City will also be adding a link to our web page showing the before and after effects of the new network.
Any more questions? 🙂
Speaker upgrades
Everyone has access to Speaker City. Their service is good and their prices are very good too. No duty to be paid on orders from them either.
My products were not solicited here, or even mentioned. Our products include a complete line of high end kits that could even be considered a competed line, and they were never mentioned.
The design was given to Speaker City at no charge, and I make nothing from them selling it.
One reason it was given to Speaker City is because they are the only company that I know of that sells the complete kit.
I did say I would sell anyone the high end parts that we carry if someone were to want them, but the recommendation is to purchase the parts for this budget design from Speaker City because they can offer the budget priced parts.
Like I said before I never post schematics or wiring diagrams of our designs. We share a ton of information with our customers for their own use, but much of our own knowledge we consider intellectual property.
If one were to call me on the phone and ask for such information with the premiss that it was not in anyway for commercial use, but for their own private use, and that said information would not be posted or publicized then I would be willing to share that information pretty freely.
How's that spirit?
Everyone has access to Speaker City. Their service is good and their prices are very good too. No duty to be paid on orders from them either.
My products were not solicited here, or even mentioned. Our products include a complete line of high end kits that could even be considered a competed line, and they were never mentioned.
The design was given to Speaker City at no charge, and I make nothing from them selling it.
One reason it was given to Speaker City is because they are the only company that I know of that sells the complete kit.
I did say I would sell anyone the high end parts that we carry if someone were to want them, but the recommendation is to purchase the parts for this budget design from Speaker City because they can offer the budget priced parts.
Like I said before I never post schematics or wiring diagrams of our designs. We share a ton of information with our customers for their own use, but much of our own knowledge we consider intellectual property.
If one were to call me on the phone and ask for such information with the premiss that it was not in anyway for commercial use, but for their own private use, and that said information would not be posted or publicized then I would be willing to share that information pretty freely.
How's that spirit?
Not willing to post the crossover design on the web seems quite illogical to me.
Would you email it upon request?
Info
Not at all illogical.
Why would I want to educate those that are or who think they are in competition with GR Research?
Why would I post information that other companies would benefit from while potentially hurting GR Research?
I have no problems helping a consumer though.
Given the understanding that you are not to post or publicize the design in any way I have no problem e-mailing you a copy of it, but still recommend Speaker City as a source for any needed parts.
info@gr-research.com
To benefit further from this network it would be necessary to flip your speaker over so that the woofer is on top. The new network that was designed for it requires for it to be that way so it will have correct polar response.
The additional baffle step loss compensation of the new network would also help with your design with the new enclosure, as you now have baffle step loss coming in at a higher frequency from minimizing your baffle size.
Another thing that will help your design would be a heavier stand with spiked feet for that carpet it is on. It would give you a more solid bass response.
Just guessing here but I would like to think you maintained approximately the same air space and port length in your new design?
Not at all illogical.
Why would I want to educate those that are or who think they are in competition with GR Research?
Why would I post information that other companies would benefit from while potentially hurting GR Research?
I have no problems helping a consumer though.
Given the understanding that you are not to post or publicize the design in any way I have no problem e-mailing you a copy of it, but still recommend Speaker City as a source for any needed parts.
info@gr-research.com
To benefit further from this network it would be necessary to flip your speaker over so that the woofer is on top. The new network that was designed for it requires for it to be that way so it will have correct polar response.
The additional baffle step loss compensation of the new network would also help with your design with the new enclosure, as you now have baffle step loss coming in at a higher frequency from minimizing your baffle size.
Another thing that will help your design would be a heavier stand with spiked feet for that carpet it is on. It would give you a more solid bass response.
Just guessing here but I would like to think you maintained approximately the same air space and port length in your new design?
I've got to admit I find Danny's arguments against posting the schematic BS. Of course, anyone who hypes so-called "high end" crossover components as somehow "sounding better" than others (and charging the premium price that goes with 'em) doesn't count for much in my book anyway.
Danny, care to do some careful ABX listening comparisons on the crossover components? How about we make it interesting and put up some money on the outcome?
As for those who preferred the "Danny designed" AR-DIYs versus the originals, was the listening done double blind? Even single blind?
I've read posts from people who've heard both and couldn't really tell any difference, much less which was "better". You wouldn't be related to Jon Risch by any chance?
Danny, care to do some careful ABX listening comparisons on the crossover components? How about we make it interesting and put up some money on the outcome?
As for those who preferred the "Danny designed" AR-DIYs versus the originals, was the listening done double blind? Even single blind?
I've read posts from people who've heard both and couldn't really tell any difference, much less which was "better". You wouldn't be related to Jon Risch by any chance?
Re: Speaker upgrades
I think you are suspect. Maybe you don't make profit from speaker city selling the parts, but it is obvious what you are trying to do. You've taken one of your competitor's designs and reworked it, in what seems like an attempt to discredit his efforts. Anyone that orders the ardiy crossover from speaker city now will come away with the impression that the gr-research one is better and that ed frias' design is inferior. This is good advertising for your business and bad for his.
As far as sharing the crossover design, well this is a public board for sharing information on diy audio. If your intention is only to discredit others efforts and not "enlighten" any of us, maybe you should do your advertising elsewhere.
I also think you should lose the holier-than-thou attitude here... it's bad for business. I can tell you you've lost one customer already.
Danny said:
I think you are suspect. Maybe you don't make profit from speaker city selling the parts, but it is obvious what you are trying to do. You've taken one of your competitor's designs and reworked it, in what seems like an attempt to discredit his efforts. Anyone that orders the ardiy crossover from speaker city now will come away with the impression that the gr-research one is better and that ed frias' design is inferior. This is good advertising for your business and bad for his.
As far as sharing the crossover design, well this is a public board for sharing information on diy audio. If your intention is only to discredit others efforts and not "enlighten" any of us, maybe you should do your advertising elsewhere.
I also think you should lose the holier-than-thou attitude here... it's bad for business. I can tell you you've lost one customer already.
You don't do this for a living do you?
We charge good money for our design services.
Why would I freely help other companies? What's so hard to understand about that?
Even the original designer of this speaker has now designed a line of speakers that sells in the same price range as our A/V series kits.
I already sent a copy of the network to MCH via e-mail at his request. Like I said I don't mind helping a consumer.
Oh boy...
One of the guys from the "all components sound alike camp" eh?
I suppose all speaker wire and interconnects sound the same too?
Give me a break. 🙄
I do and have done extensive ABX and A/B comparisons.
Betting or gambling goes against my value system, but I will be glad to assist you in enlightening you on the differences.
Want to have some comparisons and post the differences hear or not heard for all to see?
Caps are a great place to start don't you think?
The problems associated with that design have been clearly documented by others besides myself. My upgrade corrected the problems, and the result can be clearly heard by anyone wishing to try it.
Oh yea, where are they?
No I am not related to Jon, but I do consider him to be a highly respected individual in this industry.
Oh contra.
We have upgraded commercial speakers for individuals all the time and from some of the biggest names in audio.
We have never posted or offered those upgrades for any of the speakers we have worked on.
This speaker however is not being sold by the designer. He offered the design and through it out there for free. Offering an upgrade for a "free design" is not discrediting anyone. Though I must admit it did not instill confidence to me in his work.
Well if Speaker City did not agree I am sure they would not offer it. I am sure Speaker City feels better about offering the speaker now as a finished kit too.
Much information has been freely shared. I have even sent a copy of it upon request to one of you already.
Looks like you have seen something that was not at all intended.
Is anyone that offers information about something that would improve a product or make a product better holier-than-thou?
Hey guys, leave Danny alone will 'ya😉
I think this quote from a post by Aksa in the Commercial postings thread in EE is a good summary of the facts regarding the DIY world.
Remember, it's all down to the consumer, no matter what you say about manufacturers, you have the ultimate choice, if you don't want to buy a product, don't
I think this quote from a post by Aksa in the Commercial postings thread in EE is a good summary of the facts regarding the DIY world.
Remember, it's all down to the consumer, no matter what you say about manufacturers, you have the ultimate choice, if you don't want to buy a product, don't
Danny,
Are you referring to the fact the design was published for free, or the fact that you had to upgrade the XO when you say you did not have confidence in his work?
From what I've read from the designer, both the issuing for free and the particular XO design were intentional.
I am glad you have designed another XO for someone that has enhanced their listening pleasure. This however, takes nothing away from the listening pleasure others receive from the original design.
Dave.
While not wanting to prolong argument that is starting to get rather unpleasant, I have to side with small manufacturers such as Danny and Hugh Dean (AKSA) in general. Although its great to feel that as a DIYer you can do everything the professionals do for half the price or less, it really is unreasonable to expect people that are trying to make a living out of designing audio equipment to hand over IP for nothing, except in the name of furthering their own profits. You wouldn't expect any large profitable commercial firm to hand over circuit diagrams etc, so you should feel embarassed asking for a small company that is probably marginal in profitability to do such a thing.
Accusations that consumers are being "ripped off" by companies because DIYers can buid it so much cheaper ring very hollow when you consider all the costs that make up the end product. With marketing, business costs, equipment costs etc as well as the 100% margin that the retailer often gets, manufacturers usually make stuff amazingly cheaply. As Pinkmouse says, its up to you whether to buy stuff or not. If people are prepared to give stuff away great, just don't expect them to.
Hope I'm not going to prolong this thread too much longer...
Mick
Accusations that consumers are being "ripped off" by companies because DIYers can buid it so much cheaper ring very hollow when you consider all the costs that make up the end product. With marketing, business costs, equipment costs etc as well as the 100% margin that the retailer often gets, manufacturers usually make stuff amazingly cheaply. As Pinkmouse says, its up to you whether to buy stuff or not. If people are prepared to give stuff away great, just don't expect them to.
Hope I'm not going to prolong this thread too much longer...
Mick
Apparently my original reply to Danny's latest was "moderated" out - I guess I was too hard on Danny.
As it is, I won't argue with you Danny on the "sound" of caps, wires, etc. You and I both know there are no controlled double blind tests that demonstrate an audible difference between components with similar electrical characteristics (e.g. a $50 "high end" cap vs. a $5 Solen cap).
Double Blind ABX listening tests are the only known method for eliminating listener bias (which everyone suffers from) in evaluating the "sound" of electrical components (and even loudspeakers when compared one to another).
While I am well aware of the measured "dip" in the midrange of the AR-DIY (anywhere from 3 or 4 db to 9 db depending on how and who is doing the measurements), I am not convinced that striving for a measured flat response will improve the "sound" quality of this, or any other, loudspeaker. I have heard many comments about "flat" (and expensive) loudspeakers sounding "lifeless" and, well, flat. I have read reports that at a DIY conference the AR-DIY was initially very well received based on its sound quality until the measurements showed this "dip". Obviously, in this case, personal bias set it and all of the sudden perceptions changed. This is a case of the horse following the cart.
The AR-DIY was originally designed with this dip because, according to the designer, it sounded more natural based on listening tests he conducted. Even prior to Danny's not so magnamous re-engineering and offering for sale of the crossover, Ed Frias had posted modifications for those who wanted a flatter response. On the AudioReview Tweaks forum, Ed has even made the following offer:
I would like to comment that I do believe that taking a design that was offered freely to the generaly public by intent and then building upon that design and offering it back for sale is not within the spirit of DIY. Nor, do I believe, is it particularly ethical (not to mention there is no evidence that Danny's crossover is worth, in sound quality improvement, four times the original, or Ed's redesigned crossover.
While Danny may not specificially be promoting his products here, he is nevertheless promoting himself as an "expert" to whom others look. This in turn generates business for him. Quite honestly, I still don't buy the arguments presented for not posting a schematic or layout and parts list of the redesigned crossover. Anyone with the ability to test speakers, a computer and crossover design software can come up with a "flat" crossover design for a given set of drivers and box design. The parts themselves, as well as the layout, don't give away how they were derived - which is the real key to the artistry of crossover design. Making money off of someone else's design, again, seems to me outside the spirit of DIY.
As it is, I won't argue with you Danny on the "sound" of caps, wires, etc. You and I both know there are no controlled double blind tests that demonstrate an audible difference between components with similar electrical characteristics (e.g. a $50 "high end" cap vs. a $5 Solen cap).
Double Blind ABX listening tests are the only known method for eliminating listener bias (which everyone suffers from) in evaluating the "sound" of electrical components (and even loudspeakers when compared one to another).
While I am well aware of the measured "dip" in the midrange of the AR-DIY (anywhere from 3 or 4 db to 9 db depending on how and who is doing the measurements), I am not convinced that striving for a measured flat response will improve the "sound" quality of this, or any other, loudspeaker. I have heard many comments about "flat" (and expensive) loudspeakers sounding "lifeless" and, well, flat. I have read reports that at a DIY conference the AR-DIY was initially very well received based on its sound quality until the measurements showed this "dip". Obviously, in this case, personal bias set it and all of the sudden perceptions changed. This is a case of the horse following the cart.
The AR-DIY was originally designed with this dip because, according to the designer, it sounded more natural based on listening tests he conducted. Even prior to Danny's not so magnamous re-engineering and offering for sale of the crossover, Ed Frias had posted modifications for those who wanted a flatter response. On the AudioReview Tweaks forum, Ed has even made the following offer:
Maybe Danny can educate Ed, hmmm?
I would like to comment that I do believe that taking a design that was offered freely to the generaly public by intent and then building upon that design and offering it back for sale is not within the spirit of DIY. Nor, do I believe, is it particularly ethical (not to mention there is no evidence that Danny's crossover is worth, in sound quality improvement, four times the original, or Ed's redesigned crossover.
While Danny may not specificially be promoting his products here, he is nevertheless promoting himself as an "expert" to whom others look. This in turn generates business for him. Quite honestly, I still don't buy the arguments presented for not posting a schematic or layout and parts list of the redesigned crossover. Anyone with the ability to test speakers, a computer and crossover design software can come up with a "flat" crossover design for a given set of drivers and box design. The parts themselves, as well as the layout, don't give away how they were derived - which is the real key to the artistry of crossover design. Making money off of someone else's design, again, seems to me outside the spirit of DIY.
I'm not sure that this accusation has been made on this thread. No one is arguing that small businesses should not make money. I wouldn't expect to get the design of a GR loudspeaker for free (don't want it, either). Now, I do believe, based on the best available research, that "high end" components in crossovers are not worth the money and unnecessaryily inflate the cost of certain designs. Someone wants a specific design for a loudspeaker without actually buying the kit or parts from the designer's business, then, no, he shouldn't get it for free.
But this forum, I thought, was about Do-It-Yourself and helping DIYers. Danny apparently has no problem sharing his design with Speaker City, who will make money off of it, but won't share it with DIYers who won't make money off of it. Further, Ed updated his own design last November or December to take care of the "dip". The link to the design itself doesn't indicate this, but AR is notoriously slow for updating its site. A quick search of the Tweaks forum will find the discussion on this from back in December easily enough, however.
All I'm saying is that if guys don't want to share their designs, and there is no reason they have to, then just be upfront about being in business to make money off of DIYers not simply hanging around a DIY forum to be helpful.
Several issues
Please be patient and I will try to address each of the issues I see here one by one.
First of all me not wanting to post our design work on a public forum is my prerogative.
Besides I have already demonstrated my willingness to give it to the consumer for free and have already sent it to one of you.
Look at this from another set of shoes too.
What if you brought us a commercial speaker that you owned. You liked it but thought it could be better or wanted it to be better.
You bring it to GR Research and ask us to redesign the network using good components, make it better... (and this happens all the time).
We upgrade it. The customer is very happy.....
Do you guys think we provide this service for free?
No, we were paid for that design work.
Now how would that guy feel if we then posted the upgraded information on the Internet for everybody else to have for free after he just paid us to design it for him?
This issue as you can see is not worth the bandwidth or my time so let it die.
Next issue:
I mention the new upgraded network. I release the information as to where the new upgrade can be purchased. I post a link to the information on my site about the upgrade (this is what the new network does...).
I am not trying to start an argument or debate.
There is the information. If it is good news to you, fine. If you can care less, fine. Want to try it, fine. don't want to try in, fine.
Don't shoot the messenger.
And sure if you want to try this new design using the high end components that we sell, I will sell them to you. I don't give those components away for free. It will cost you.
There are other ways to improve this speaker too.
The enclosures I saw may have been 5/8" thick Partial board. It might have been MDF. It had no braces. It was very resonant.
Add a sheet of Blackhole 5 to control the cabinet resonances, and tighten up the bass response. That would be a good improvement too.
Does that recommendation get me shot too?
I do sell Blackhole 5, but so do others.
Take the information for what it is worth when you get it. You can tell when somebody is being informative and when they are peddling something.
Next issue component quality.
This is a separate issue from the network upgrade.
Big Daddy I would more than welcome a challenge to look into the audible differences of caps. Man, I have been there done that, should have wrote a book.
I had a customer call me last night that just upgraded his Alpha LS's with the Sonicaps. He was so happy with the immediate improvement that he called me right away to tell me how great they were, even his wife noticed an immediate difference... well worth the money.... really pleased.... all was great.
And I get that feedback all the time.
Even other speaker manufactures are claiming the new Sonicaps to be the best sounding caps they have ever heard or used.
Getting feed back like that on a regular basis really covers over all the nay sayers that want to post somewhere that they think (having never tried them) that it won't make a difference.
Do this Big Daddy.
Start a new thread on it.
We can discuss the testing procedure. We can figure out who can be involved. We can figure out what speakers to use, and whatever.
I'll even supply the caps. So long as they are returned in the end or purchased in the end. They are not a donation.
Second, I will participate as long as it is civil and does not involve arguing and claims that this person or that person can or can not hear.
Next issue, which is better, big dip, blah, blah, blah.
In my opinion the dip in the response was the least of the problems I noticed with the pair I had here.
The phase issues and polar tilt problem was a greater issue.
Just try listening to them seated and then stand up. When you stand up you should notice about a 20db suck out. 20db is a lot! If you can't hear a 20db difference then maybe you can't hear, and I am not saying that to say somebody can't hear. I am saying that because it is huge, and anyone can hear it. This is not natural !
Oh yea, a speaker sounds more "natural" with a dip at 3kHz (a big dip) and an elevated top octave?
I hope this doesn't get out to all the other designers or they might start adjusting their speakers too.
Maybe the recording studios can just start recording their music that way?
As much as I hate to say anything that would cause an argumentative response, I must admit that does sound ridiculous.
In Ed's defense maybe he was listening to these in a really bright room that caused reflections in that area to make them overly bright. In other words maybe they were adjusted that way as per room reflection issues.
This is another reason measurements are important. You can't design a speaker as per one given room. The next room will obviously not be the same.
The guy that sent me his speaker to modify tried Ed's modification. He thought it sounded worse. He e-mailed Ed and told him that he liked it better before and Ed never returned his e-mails.
I looked at the proposed upgrade from Ed and did not feel it would address any of the issues I had with the design.
As for Ed's comments...
I have no interest in building a pair of these speakers.
If I wanted to prove anything about my abilities as a designer or about the products we offer I would send a pair of our own speakers out. I already have lots of pairs of speakers on tour all over the country allowing free in home demos. Get in line. You can then demo any of our speakers and compare them to anything.
Anyone can order the new upgraded network for the AR DIY speaker and try them for themselves including Ed.
If you guys want to do a comparison have at it, and have fun.
But use the same parts quality in each. The debate on parts quality is a different issue.
And please don't argue over which is better having not heard anything. You guys can go figure it out for yourselves. This is not going to take rocket science or double blind studies. The differences are pretty obvious. Just listen for yourselves then report back.
Please be patient and I will try to address each of the issues I see here one by one.
First of all me not wanting to post our design work on a public forum is my prerogative.
Besides I have already demonstrated my willingness to give it to the consumer for free and have already sent it to one of you.
Look at this from another set of shoes too.
What if you brought us a commercial speaker that you owned. You liked it but thought it could be better or wanted it to be better.
You bring it to GR Research and ask us to redesign the network using good components, make it better... (and this happens all the time).
We upgrade it. The customer is very happy.....
Do you guys think we provide this service for free?
No, we were paid for that design work.
Now how would that guy feel if we then posted the upgraded information on the Internet for everybody else to have for free after he just paid us to design it for him?
This issue as you can see is not worth the bandwidth or my time so let it die.
Next issue:
I mention the new upgraded network. I release the information as to where the new upgrade can be purchased. I post a link to the information on my site about the upgrade (this is what the new network does...).
I am not trying to start an argument or debate.
There is the information. If it is good news to you, fine. If you can care less, fine. Want to try it, fine. don't want to try in, fine.
Don't shoot the messenger.
And sure if you want to try this new design using the high end components that we sell, I will sell them to you. I don't give those components away for free. It will cost you.
There are other ways to improve this speaker too.
The enclosures I saw may have been 5/8" thick Partial board. It might have been MDF. It had no braces. It was very resonant.
Add a sheet of Blackhole 5 to control the cabinet resonances, and tighten up the bass response. That would be a good improvement too.
Does that recommendation get me shot too?
I do sell Blackhole 5, but so do others.
Take the information for what it is worth when you get it. You can tell when somebody is being informative and when they are peddling something.
Next issue component quality.
This is a separate issue from the network upgrade.
Big Daddy I would more than welcome a challenge to look into the audible differences of caps. Man, I have been there done that, should have wrote a book.
I had a customer call me last night that just upgraded his Alpha LS's with the Sonicaps. He was so happy with the immediate improvement that he called me right away to tell me how great they were, even his wife noticed an immediate difference... well worth the money.... really pleased.... all was great.
And I get that feedback all the time.
Even other speaker manufactures are claiming the new Sonicaps to be the best sounding caps they have ever heard or used.
Getting feed back like that on a regular basis really covers over all the nay sayers that want to post somewhere that they think (having never tried them) that it won't make a difference.
Do this Big Daddy.
Start a new thread on it.
We can discuss the testing procedure. We can figure out who can be involved. We can figure out what speakers to use, and whatever.
I'll even supply the caps. So long as they are returned in the end or purchased in the end. They are not a donation.
Second, I will participate as long as it is civil and does not involve arguing and claims that this person or that person can or can not hear.
Next issue, which is better, big dip, blah, blah, blah.
In my opinion the dip in the response was the least of the problems I noticed with the pair I had here.
The phase issues and polar tilt problem was a greater issue.
Just try listening to them seated and then stand up. When you stand up you should notice about a 20db suck out. 20db is a lot! If you can't hear a 20db difference then maybe you can't hear, and I am not saying that to say somebody can't hear. I am saying that because it is huge, and anyone can hear it. This is not natural !
Oh yea, a speaker sounds more "natural" with a dip at 3kHz (a big dip) and an elevated top octave?
I hope this doesn't get out to all the other designers or they might start adjusting their speakers too.
Maybe the recording studios can just start recording their music that way?
As much as I hate to say anything that would cause an argumentative response, I must admit that does sound ridiculous.
In Ed's defense maybe he was listening to these in a really bright room that caused reflections in that area to make them overly bright. In other words maybe they were adjusted that way as per room reflection issues.
This is another reason measurements are important. You can't design a speaker as per one given room. The next room will obviously not be the same.
The guy that sent me his speaker to modify tried Ed's modification. He thought it sounded worse. He e-mailed Ed and told him that he liked it better before and Ed never returned his e-mails.
I looked at the proposed upgrade from Ed and did not feel it would address any of the issues I had with the design.
As for Ed's comments...
I have no interest in building a pair of these speakers.
If I wanted to prove anything about my abilities as a designer or about the products we offer I would send a pair of our own speakers out. I already have lots of pairs of speakers on tour all over the country allowing free in home demos. Get in line. You can then demo any of our speakers and compare them to anything.
Anyone can order the new upgraded network for the AR DIY speaker and try them for themselves including Ed.
If you guys want to do a comparison have at it, and have fun.
But use the same parts quality in each. The debate on parts quality is a different issue.
And please don't argue over which is better having not heard anything. You guys can go figure it out for yourselves. This is not going to take rocket science or double blind studies. The differences are pretty obvious. Just listen for yourselves then report back.
Danny,
I'm not sure why you keep arguing as though I don't think you have a right to make money on your designs. I may not think they're worth what you ask for them, but that doesn't mean I think you should give your "sweat" away for free.
As for the rest of your comments, most aren't really relevant to what I've been arguing. Also, honestly, it sounds to me like the guy whose speakers you listened to weren't done correctly, but hey.
You also write, however:
As it is, all you offer is merely annecdotal evidence. Look at it this way, if I was inclined to pay $200 or more for a crossover, I would certainly be inclined also to believe it improved the sound tremedously.
I don't buy into people's observations about what they hear in uncontrolled non-double blind listening precisely because human beings are too easily swayed by their pre-conceptions and belief systems. There a numerous sites dealing with this issue on the web, and not just as related to the world of audio. I just read this morning a post from someone who was inclined to believe as you are and then starting examing his belief system. He started doing meticulous double blind tests and realized that the differences he thought he could clearly hear previously weren't there at all.
Double blind, ABX, $1000 bucks says you can't tell which is better Sonicaps or Solen. As for a new thread, what's the point? This issue gets "talked" to death, the proof is in the listening (controlled, double blind, abx that is). 🙂 Seriously, Danny, I appreciate your willingness to engage in this at all and apologize if I come off too strong or argumentative. It is my (one 😉) character flaw!
But my main argument was not even whether your crossover design would sound better or not, just that it didn't (and doesn't) make sense to me to not post it. Again, I'm all in favor of you making money off your designs. I'm a bigtime capitalist! 🙂 But I just can't see how publically posting this particular crossoever design would keep you from making money or help any "competition" since you're willing to give it away anyway. And, since you've made the offer, I would be most appreciative if you would send me the crossover design via email!
Thanks!
I'm not sure why you keep arguing as though I don't think you have a right to make money on your designs. I may not think they're worth what you ask for them, but that doesn't mean I think you should give your "sweat" away for free.
As for the rest of your comments, most aren't really relevant to what I've been arguing. Also, honestly, it sounds to me like the guy whose speakers you listened to weren't done correctly, but hey.
You also write, however:
Then you should have written a book, submitted it to AES or some other peer reviewed journal and let the experts have the benefit of your "research". 😎
As it is, all you offer is merely annecdotal evidence. Look at it this way, if I was inclined to pay $200 or more for a crossover, I would certainly be inclined also to believe it improved the sound tremedously.
I don't buy into people's observations about what they hear in uncontrolled non-double blind listening precisely because human beings are too easily swayed by their pre-conceptions and belief systems. There a numerous sites dealing with this issue on the web, and not just as related to the world of audio. I just read this morning a post from someone who was inclined to believe as you are and then starting examing his belief system. He started doing meticulous double blind tests and realized that the differences he thought he could clearly hear previously weren't there at all.
Double blind, ABX, $1000 bucks says you can't tell which is better Sonicaps or Solen. As for a new thread, what's the point? This issue gets "talked" to death, the proof is in the listening (controlled, double blind, abx that is). 🙂 Seriously, Danny, I appreciate your willingness to engage in this at all and apologize if I come off too strong or argumentative. It is my (one 😉) character flaw!
But my main argument was not even whether your crossover design would sound better or not, just that it didn't (and doesn't) make sense to me to not post it. Again, I'm all in favor of you making money off your designs. I'm a bigtime capitalist! 🙂 But I just can't see how publically posting this particular crossoever design would keep you from making money or help any "competition" since you're willing to give it away anyway. And, since you've made the offer, I would be most appreciative if you would send me the crossover design via email!
Thanks!
Caps
Okay Big Daddy,
Want to find out how much difference caps can make? I am all for it.
I offer much more than anecdotal evidence. I offer you the chance to find out for yourself, or have a group of people listen and report, etc. I am willing to send out caps.
As stated before, it is not within my value system to bet or gamble.
And how would that look for a professional in this industry to be out taking bets on this or that? That could hurt worse than anything.
But I can put much more than that at stake.
I buy and sell over a thousands of dollars worth of Sonicaps each month alone.
If a group of people said they could tell no difference it would certainly hurt my business more than just a thousand dollars.
I would be willing to risk that, knowing there is a big difference, and verifications of the differences in those caps, that happen all the time, continue to increase sales of those caps.
And trust me I know all about human perception, expectation, and persuasion. I am also certified as a hypnotist. I have studied all of that.
Throw all of that out the window. It is not that hard to tell the difference.
It would be like me saying, let me punch you in the head with my fist and them let me hit you in the head with this hammer and you tell me which one hurts more.
Well you wouldn't have to get hit in the head to many times to decide that the hammer hurts worse would you?
Same thing with the caps.
Funny thing is that each person that tries them reports back nearly the exact same things, and they were not told ahead of time or had any ideas from others what they would hear or not hear.
I can't believe you or anyone else does not get that.
I bend over backwards sometimes to help the consumers in this hobby, but I don't help other companies unless they have contracted my services, and I have many companies that do use our design services.
Send me an e-mail and I will send you the network diagram as well. You can be the forth.
Okay Big Daddy,
Want to find out how much difference caps can make? I am all for it.
I offer much more than anecdotal evidence. I offer you the chance to find out for yourself, or have a group of people listen and report, etc. I am willing to send out caps.
As stated before, it is not within my value system to bet or gamble.
And how would that look for a professional in this industry to be out taking bets on this or that? That could hurt worse than anything.
But I can put much more than that at stake.
I buy and sell over a thousands of dollars worth of Sonicaps each month alone.
If a group of people said they could tell no difference it would certainly hurt my business more than just a thousand dollars.
I would be willing to risk that, knowing there is a big difference, and verifications of the differences in those caps, that happen all the time, continue to increase sales of those caps.
And trust me I know all about human perception, expectation, and persuasion. I am also certified as a hypnotist. I have studied all of that.
Throw all of that out the window. It is not that hard to tell the difference.
It would be like me saying, let me punch you in the head with my fist and them let me hit you in the head with this hammer and you tell me which one hurts more.
Well you wouldn't have to get hit in the head to many times to decide that the hammer hurts worse would you?
Same thing with the caps.
Funny thing is that each person that tries them reports back nearly the exact same things, and they were not told ahead of time or had any ideas from others what they would hear or not hear.
I can't believe you or anyone else does not get that.
I bend over backwards sometimes to help the consumers in this hobby, but I don't help other companies unless they have contracted my services, and I have many companies that do use our design services.
Send me an e-mail and I will send you the network diagram as well. You can be the forth.
Ok, Danny, one more time into the breach! 😉
First of all, let me thank you for sending the crossover schematic.
Second, let's deal with just a few things.
Okay, one more time:
a) You've already shared the design with a commercial company;
b) the design itself doesn't tell anyone how you came up with it; IOW, it doesn't reveal your "trade secrets". You have yet to even elucidate, much less demonstrate, what your "competitors" would gain from it being made "public".
c) it wasn't your kit to begin with and you can still sell the crossover parts to all who want to build it precisely to your spec.
Danny, you seem like a good guy, and I really think I probably over-reacted to you at first. But I still think making it public won't hurt you and would probably gain you some great "good will", something no small business can have too much of!
Later, dude! 😎
Jon
First of all, let me thank you for sending the crossover schematic.
Second, let's deal with just a few things.
You're offering to send the caps gratis? If I read you right, send away, my man. I'll be more than happy to take you up on it and post my impressions.
But this is the same thing that guys say in reviews about cables, green ink on the edges of CDs and even wire "bridges" (you know, those things that lift your speaker cables off the floor to reduce something or other...sheesh). The differences are always "startling, dramatic, removes a veil, obvious even to the novice." Yet, when double blinds are done, they can't even tell a difference, much less which might be better. Those who know the most are usually fooled the worse.
Which would say to me they've all been properly indoctrinated. 😉 I can get these type of reports from a Benny Hinn meeting (he's a faith healer for those who don't know) from a dozen people concerning someone "healed", but who then goes to the doctor and finds no difference. The fact that these people report "nearly the exact same thing" in uncontrolled sighted listening simply tells me their biases are common (they read the same stuff) and are at work.
Okay, one more time:
a) You've already shared the design with a commercial company;
b) the design itself doesn't tell anyone how you came up with it; IOW, it doesn't reveal your "trade secrets". You have yet to even elucidate, much less demonstrate, what your "competitors" would gain from it being made "public".
c) it wasn't your kit to begin with and you can still sell the crossover parts to all who want to build it precisely to your spec.
Danny, you seem like a good guy, and I really think I probably over-reacted to you at first. But I still think making it public won't hurt you and would probably gain you some great "good will", something no small business can have too much of!
Later, dude! 😎
Jon
Caps and stuff
Okay Big Daddy,
I'll reconsider posting the network. There are a couple of others whose approval this will require. We will see.
On the cap issue:
Soon you can make up your own mind just like everyone else, and you too can join the club or be the first to claim they hear no difference.
Okay Big Daddy,
I'll reconsider posting the network. There are a couple of others whose approval this will require. We will see.
On the cap issue:
Soon you can make up your own mind just like everyone else, and you too can join the club or be the first to claim they hear no difference.
in retrospect
Danny, man,
IMO the thing that got you in trouble was your relative lack of diplomacy on the first place. If only you would not have started with criticizing so utterly Ed's design, you wouldn't end up hurting many peoples' feelings, who love it and honor the creator.
Again IMO, if you had an initial attitude along the lines of "Ed's design is great, but i figured out a way to make it even better" you'd probably get a better acceptance in these waters.
Alex
Danny, man,
IMO the thing that got you in trouble was your relative lack of diplomacy on the first place. If only you would not have started with criticizing so utterly Ed's design, you wouldn't end up hurting many peoples' feelings, who love it and honor the creator.
Again IMO, if you had an initial attitude along the lines of "Ed's design is great, but i figured out a way to make it even better" you'd probably get a better acceptance in these waters.
Alex
Hello all
Well, I had decided to go ahead and post the schematic of our new network design for you guys after all.
You whiners (just kidding).
But I see that one of you that I shared it with has already taken the liberty of posting it to a public forum.
Thanks Jon (Big Daddy).
Guys I am not happy with how this whole thread ended up, and apologize if anything I said came off the wrong way.
I think to often attitudes come through in these messages that are not really there or intended.
I don't know Ed, have not meet Ed, have no ill will towards Ed, and in no way feel his free design to be a threat to GR Research in any way. If I thought it to be competitive with our own products (even after our upgrade) I certainly wouldn't have made such effort to allow it to be offered.
I upgraded the speaker because it was given to us to upgrade just like many other speakers before it.
I would not have allowed our network to be offered if it was actually one of Ed's products or something he sells. Only because it was a freely offered kit did I decide to allow the company that is currently selling the kit to consider our network with it.
I look at this industry this way. Any company that brings people from other markets (retail) and turns them on to DIY, and makes happy customers to boot, then they are good for the industry and I appreciate them for it. Making the market (hobbyist market) bigger is good for me too.
Ed appears to have done this. So for this I applaud him and thank him.
I am an honest guy, and sometimes maybe brutally honest and as static said I may indeed lack diplomacy on more than one occasion.
So I was not impressed with Eds design, big deal. It doesn't matter. We are not at odds. Offering the network was not an attack on him in any way. At least it was not meant to be.
This is supposed to be fun.
Enjoy the music.
Well, I had decided to go ahead and post the schematic of our new network design for you guys after all.
You whiners (just kidding).
But I see that one of you that I shared it with has already taken the liberty of posting it to a public forum.
Thanks Jon (Big Daddy).
Guys I am not happy with how this whole thread ended up, and apologize if anything I said came off the wrong way.
I think to often attitudes come through in these messages that are not really there or intended.
I don't know Ed, have not meet Ed, have no ill will towards Ed, and in no way feel his free design to be a threat to GR Research in any way. If I thought it to be competitive with our own products (even after our upgrade) I certainly wouldn't have made such effort to allow it to be offered.
I upgraded the speaker because it was given to us to upgrade just like many other speakers before it.
I would not have allowed our network to be offered if it was actually one of Ed's products or something he sells. Only because it was a freely offered kit did I decide to allow the company that is currently selling the kit to consider our network with it.
I look at this industry this way. Any company that brings people from other markets (retail) and turns them on to DIY, and makes happy customers to boot, then they are good for the industry and I appreciate them for it. Making the market (hobbyist market) bigger is good for me too.
Ed appears to have done this. So for this I applaud him and thank him.
I am an honest guy, and sometimes maybe brutally honest and as static said I may indeed lack diplomacy on more than one occasion.
So I was not impressed with Eds design, big deal. It doesn't matter. We are not at odds. Offering the network was not an attack on him in any way. At least it was not meant to be.
This is supposed to be fun.
Enjoy the music.
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