Several reasons that relate to the design challenges of tube amps vs SS, active device impedances, device biasing, output device (transformer vs not) power supply issues, etc. It's way off topic for this thread. Frankly, you can research this yourself. I'd probably start with the Manley's VTL book. A knowledge of audio electronics will be required.
You obviously have not read my post either. I was saying exactly the same thing about sound staging as you are trying to tell me here. If you did read my post you could have read that I am working in classical concert halls (one of the most famous halls in the world actually) and jazz venues, and pop venues, it's my job. I hear live music on an almost daily basis and I know what it sounds like in every place in the hall. I record music, I mix music, and yes I extensively listen to music. Most people and even quite a lot of 'loudspeaker designers' compare their sound systems to other sound systems. I never do that, I only compare it to what I hear during my work. My comments on low-end extension come from what I hear every day and what I hear so terribly bad reproduced by all these small loudspeakers. It was an advice to experiment with it because the 'size' of the concert hall can only be reproduced with proper low end. A 3" full-range driver, while giving you the illusion of a so-called 'holographic' experience or whatever you might call it, is never ever going to realistically recreate a real orchestra in a real concert hall, they just can't, period. I hear the difference every day.
Again, either my English is pretty damn poor or people don't take the time to actually read any post before commenting.
WoooHOOO! Someone that gets it! Thanks! I know the guy who created those tracks, where and how. Good tests, tough to make work well, but when they do...wow!
Hi, the key to my comment about constant directivity, was to avoid narrow patterns, not constant directivity itself. Sorry if that wasn't apparent.
I'm all for constant directivity, i was kinda trying to make a case for it at least 180 deg wide, top to bottom
Pardon my ignorance but that test is useful for testing a loudspeaker pairs' imaging character ... not to test their ability to produce a realistic sound stage. Sound stage is the width, depth, height created illusion that contains the performers ... not their particular location (imaging).
The first 20 second organ pedal note of Also Sprach Zarathustra is 16Hz. And we haven't even brough up Saint-Saëns.
Just sayin....
The two are the same, inseparable. You get one, you get the other. Try it.
The exception is the huge and abigouous "soundstage" you get from omnis. But they don't image worth crap, so it's a fake soundstage.
They are not the same. This is why this thread has got so confusing for the OP'er. Too much incorrect language being used to explain a simple parameter.
"Sound" the result of audio production. The intensity of which being determined by the amount of individual sources or their peak SPL.
"Stage" the venue this audio production takes place in. Could be small, medium or large. These ques may be present in the recording themselves. The combined traits provide the illusion of space and the musicians in it, commonly refered to as the "sound stage".
"Sound" the result of audio production. The intensity of which being determined by the amount of individual sources or their peak SPL.
"Stage" the venue this audio production takes place in. Could be small, medium or large. These ques may be present in the recording themselves. The combined traits provide the illusion of space and the musicians in it, commonly refered to as the "sound stage".
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Yes, they are. You can't get anything to image outside of the speaker angle without controlling reflections. And when you do, things can image low, high, close, far, anywhere in the space. The entire reproduced sound field becomes huge. Ambience goes where it should. And so on.
If you define "soundstage" some other way...
Two big speakers with closed box woofers that give nice response from 25Hz up with low GD (in-room) give such live-like music hall sound that most people can't even dream of. A single subwoofer is ok for movie effects or pop music only. Or if one hasn't heard of better..
My suggestion was omni/dipole speakers with two subs with dsp-control - Linkwitz LX-Mini plus. Reasons given by many posters here. Then, set them on the long walll of the room and enjoy! AVR that has pre-outs that follow main level are needed, or a new pre-amp.
If classicalfan wants to keep Piccolos, using minidsp 2x4HD to control stereo subwoofers crossed around 100Hz might help a lot. The problem is to find right acoustic highpass slopes and delay for main speakers, measurements are needed.
Changing just the AVR to any other amp is waste of money, unethical advice IMO.
My suggestion was omni/dipole speakers with two subs with dsp-control - Linkwitz LX-Mini plus. Reasons given by many posters here. Then, set them on the long walll of the room and enjoy! AVR that has pre-outs that follow main level are needed, or a new pre-amp.
If classicalfan wants to keep Piccolos, using minidsp 2x4HD to control stereo subwoofers crossed around 100Hz might help a lot. The problem is to find right acoustic highpass slopes and delay for main speakers, measurements are needed.
Changing just the AVR to any other amp is waste of money, unethical advice IMO.
"Imaging" is the ability to pick out the individual musicians/sources within the horizontal space between the L/R channels. That is different than the "sound stage" presented.
...........
After this test, all I can say is that either I really don't know what 'soundstage' means to other people, or the people who are saying it can't make a difference have never tried it or are simply stating nonsense, it puzzles me, that's for sure.
Of course I read it, you end up like this, hence my answer.
Just tried it, two of my systems I tested it on passed the test flawlessly. I'm still confused what most people over here call 'soundstage' The confusion lies in the definition. This test says a lot about imaging, my small system, and my big system both perform this test the same but on music playback the 'stage' or the 'size of the venue it creates is different, on the small system, the concert hall shrinks in size. That's my understanding of "sound STAGE" as in the real stage, the real thing, not a mini version of it. But maybe we are talking about the same thing only your definition might be different.
I will make an effort, you know (I think) that it is difficult to describe sounds with words.
JGH created a "dictionary" specifically for that, but I'll go ahead with my own words. Attention that I do not speak English, I use a translator.
You are in front of your speakers and a triangle sounds to the left, the timbre is correct, very real. Then you hear a drum -at the right - beat on the rim of the drum. It sounds dry, the timbre is also correct, and it has a violent attack just like in real life. Those are images.
You also hear other instruments that are simultaneously perceived in the background, between L and R, but far behind. Put all that together and you have the sound stage.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Gordon_Holt
Just to clarify for my purposes in this discussion I use the phrase sound stage to the mean the appearance of the total sound in terms of its width, height, and depth. And its location relative to the speakers themselves. Whether it is in front of the speakers, or behind them.
I do not include imaging in my definition, where imaging refers to the ability to pinpoint the location of specific instruments or voices within the sound stage. Imaging is not important to me at this time.
Others may disagree with these definitions, but they reflect my interests at the moment.
I just want to hear a big, wide, and deep orchestra in my small room. I still don't know if that is even possible, but that's the goal, nevertheless.
And I don't want to give up the outstanding sound quality, at least to me, that I have with my current speakers. That's not a trade-off that I would make just to get a bigger sound stage. So, any suggestions to try different speakers has to include those that are equal to or better than the ones I have now in terms of overall sound quality.
I do not include imaging in my definition, where imaging refers to the ability to pinpoint the location of specific instruments or voices within the sound stage. Imaging is not important to me at this time.
Others may disagree with these definitions, but they reflect my interests at the moment.
I just want to hear a big, wide, and deep orchestra in my small room. I still don't know if that is even possible, but that's the goal, nevertheless.
And I don't want to give up the outstanding sound quality, at least to me, that I have with my current speakers. That's not a trade-off that I would make just to get a bigger sound stage. So, any suggestions to try different speakers has to include those that are equal to or better than the ones I have now in terms of overall sound quality.
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It seems obvious to me that most of the contributors who have posted over the past few pages haven't read or comprehended your circumstances or musical requirements. 18" open baffle FFS?
The take away messages are 1. Professional audio engineers are often forced to work in small spaces like yours and it is possible to achieve great spaciousness and imaging in a room your size. Speaker placement and possibly some acoustic treatments are the key. 2. You are not going to hear spaciousness from an AVR, at least not from 99% IMHO. https://www.diyaudio.com/community/members/sjef.3527/ is absolutely on the money. 3. DSP and post processing of any kind, subwoofers, etc, is putting lipstick on a pig. Nothing within reasonable expense is going to add spaciousness without seriously detracting from the original essence of a decently recorded operatic or symphonic performance. Leave to tricks and toys for pop and rock, etc.
What do I know that I can be critical of other advice given here? I've worked with orchestras and opera companies, musicals, composers and conductors. I've engineered highly acclaimed sound reinforcement systems for modern operas indoors (E.G. Nixon in China, Sweeney Todd) and outdoors (Tosca) and worked with Steve Barbar and David Griesinger to design and install an electronic architecture system for opera and orchestra in a 2000 seat auditorium so that everyone in every seat can hear the spacial image of the on stage performance, even if they are off to one side or under a balcony. I can't get inside your head, so my thoughts are for if it were me listening to opera and orchestra.
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