I'm joking a bit there on the previous post 
I truly hope he gets the improvement sooner than later, everyone deserves good sound!
And what do I know, I listen in mono! Griesinger stuff, the proximity, can be heard in mono as well I think. At least I've found out experimenting with crossovers there can be quite a difference although the "spinorama" data along with Olive preference rating is stays good. Sound can be boring or exciting, for the lack for proper words. I'm investigating if this is related to the stuff Griesinger talks about as proximity, how the sound gets attention from the brain, and it seems although I haven't tested it mucho and looking for ways to experiment with it. Might be error in my DSP settings as well so, studying it slowly. I believe amplifiers can also affect imaging, but I think most of it is after the amplifier as long as the amplifier is not particularly poor design or broken and the speaker and acoustics should be in order first.
I truly hope he gets the improvement sooner than later, everyone deserves good sound! And what do I know, I listen in mono! Griesinger stuff, the proximity, can be heard in mono as well I think. At least I've found out experimenting with crossovers there can be quite a difference although the "spinorama" data along with Olive preference rating is stays good. Sound can be boring or exciting, for the lack for proper words. I'm investigating if this is related to the stuff Griesinger talks about as proximity, how the sound gets attention from the brain, and it seems although I haven't tested it mucho and looking for ways to experiment with it. Might be error in my DSP settings as well so, studying it slowly. I believe amplifiers can also affect imaging, but I think most of it is after the amplifier as long as the amplifier is not particularly poor design or broken and the speaker and acoustics should be in order first.
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In case the OP is still around, I've found the following test tracks to be very useful in determining speaker placement for soundstage:
LEDR Speaker Placement
It's free and definitely worth trying before splashing out on new bits of kit. If you cannot get the sound 'outside' the footprint of the speakers with these tests, there's something very wrong with either the speakers or the accoustics
LEDR Speaker Placement
It's free and definitely worth trying before splashing out on new bits of kit. If you cannot get the sound 'outside' the footprint of the speakers with these tests, there's something very wrong with either the speakers or the accoustics
A larger and maybe less 'dead' room would make a huge difference, but I understand that that may not be possible. Besides the thick carpeting, what other highly absorbent surfaces are there?: Plush sofa, draperies, etc.? Your second best option is new speakers with broader dispersion at the mid and upper frequencies. This will help to compensate for excessive room deadness. Another problem with small dead rooms is the limited ability to develop a diffuse ambient sound field, thus limiting the sense of "spaciousness".
So, I would say that your first two orders of business are to appropirately liven up your room and to get speakers with broader dispersion at mid and upper frequencies. And, with any luck, get a bigger room. A new amp is way down the list.
I can think of a few ways the amp could be interpreted as altering a sound stage...
Output resistance. Commonly believed that the higher the damping factor the better, even though that's oversimplified and depending on parameters could be just plain wrong. By experimentation, I found that something as seemingly unrelated as room modes could be plainly altered, counter-intuitively reducing their amplitude and Q just by adding series resistance between the amplifier and speaker load. I think there's a lot of untapped potential for speaker builders to really "tune" their systems, and understand that "de-tuning" cone Q could improve in-room Q.
Another way of explaining what I'm talking about is to think of the loudspeaker as an active "bass trap". As the original source of the sound in the room, it is perfectly positioned to be able to re-absorb various echoes, and prevent resonances from forming in the first place, but often fails to do so. (Misguided?) design efforts often prioritise accuracy of "cone position", making it impervious to overhang, as a side effect the cone becomes a 'node' (a region of minimum velocity and maximum pressure, like one end of a taut string where the other end is a wall or corner), forming uncontrolled resonances in the room.
If I had to give blind advice on what to do for the above, I'd say: start by playing around with a few resistances like 4.7 ohm or 10 ohm, and hear what happens. Try to pinpoint the subjectively most dominant 2-3 bass resonances to fix (I generated bass tones with a music keyboard for this purpose) and correct them either manually with parametric EQ or with the help of something like REW, and compare the before-and-after. Once you've nailed down the in-room performance, then the crossover might want some re-tuning as well as it may affect the overall balance a little bit.
Hi classicalfan. my 2c.
If you are looking for a soundstage that is at least as wide as the speakers are separated, and possibly wider, the dominant factor is the ratio of reflected sound to direct sound. So i would look for speakers that provide more off-axis energy. Something maybe with a dipole tweeter-mid, open-baffle, or with extra side firing tweeters, for examples.
Since it's harder to get past the critical distance in a small room (the distance where direct sound equals indirect sound), to add ambiance and apparent soundstage size, about the only effective solution to to increase reflected energy from the speaker ime.
Also, imho, for the goal of increasing soundstage size, acoustic treatments that deaden the room, or take away reflections, are the wrong way to go. As are speakers like constant directivity with narrower patterns.
From the thread title, it seems the OP strongly believes that the fault lies with either the speakers or the amplifiers.
Mark100 - I agree with that reverberation is "bigness", but purposely increasing it could get the small room overloaded very quickly. And then there's the issue of hearing fatigue due to the increased reverberation.
However, if that's a solution, then some suitable room effect (hall, concert etc.) could easily be added from the CD player/processor itself. Dolby ProLogic is also a good idea (mentioned before I think), but very few people prefer modification of the source material.
Mark100 - I agree with that reverberation is "bigness", but purposely increasing it could get the small room overloaded very quickly. And then there's the issue of hearing fatigue due to the increased reverberation.
However, if that's a solution, then some suitable room effect (hall, concert etc.) could easily be added from the CD player/processor itself. Dolby ProLogic is also a good idea (mentioned before I think), but very few people prefer modification of the source material.
I think that after all those years professionally in the business and as a hobby enthusiast I really don't seem to know what people mean by soundstage.
Just for fun, I just tried some 50-year-old Philips loudspeakers on four different power amplifiers I have lying around in the closet. The Philips are the only passive loudspeakers I have lying around, not very good but hey, it's just for fun.
One is an old NAD 2200pe, second an Hiraga Classe A, third an Audiosector LM3886 amp, and finally an ICEpower 1200AS2.
Well, what can I say, the difference in sound staging is huge, and I mean really huge. The NAD is totally flat, there is almost no depth at all and it is small with no height at all, and the sound sticks on the speakers, it's just left-right with a big hole in the middle. The second was the audio sector amp, better but still pretty flat and unengaging but at least that hole in the middle was gone. Then came the Hiraga, holy crap. I never heard these Philips speakers on a decent amp but this is some pretty good soundstage, much better than I ever would have expected from these old speakers. It is wide, deep and it has height. The whole experience of these loudspeakers on this amp was transformational in every aspect, soundstage, detail, dynamics, the flow of the music all much better The fourth was the ICEpower. well, that was funny. while it has better control over the loudspeaker and sounds more balanced the soundstage, while very good, was not as good as with the Hiraga. Unfortunately, one of the input tubes of my 300B SET amps is broken otherwise I would have liked them in the test as well. After this test, all I can say is that either I really don't know what 'soundstage' means to other people, or the people who are saying it can't make a difference have never tried it or are simply stating nonsense, it puzzles me, that's for sure.
Just for fun, I just tried some 50-year-old Philips loudspeakers on four different power amplifiers I have lying around in the closet. The Philips are the only passive loudspeakers I have lying around, not very good but hey, it's just for fun.
One is an old NAD 2200pe, second an Hiraga Classe A, third an Audiosector LM3886 amp, and finally an ICEpower 1200AS2.
Well, what can I say, the difference in sound staging is huge, and I mean really huge. The NAD is totally flat, there is almost no depth at all and it is small with no height at all, and the sound sticks on the speakers, it's just left-right with a big hole in the middle. The second was the audio sector amp, better but still pretty flat and unengaging but at least that hole in the middle was gone. Then came the Hiraga, holy crap. I never heard these Philips speakers on a decent amp but this is some pretty good soundstage, much better than I ever would have expected from these old speakers. It is wide, deep and it has height. The whole experience of these loudspeakers on this amp was transformational in every aspect, soundstage, detail, dynamics, the flow of the music all much better The fourth was the ICEpower. well, that was funny. while it has better control over the loudspeaker and sounds more balanced the soundstage, while very good, was not as good as with the Hiraga. Unfortunately, one of the input tubes of my 300B SET amps is broken otherwise I would have liked them in the test as well. After this test, all I can say is that either I really don't know what 'soundstage' means to other people, or the people who are saying it can't make a difference have never tried it or are simply stating nonsense, it puzzles me, that's for sure.
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to the op,
Listening operas and concerts with such a micro loudspeaker is like to go on the moon with a BMX, it's an understanding about what is a tool in relation to the task. Can not be good for that without a sub to mimic the low end of the venue and the mixing of the sound engineers : those events are mostly made of reflective sounds due to the size of the venue being a little chapelle or a big concert hall , so you need it all. While all the soundstage envelopment are in higher frequencies (500 hz to 5k hz mainly ?)
I first would try to find and choose reccordings known for their recording qualities, however it has no correlation with the performance of the musicians and singers as you know and you will have hard time to find soundstage feeling in some old recordings like Jussi Björling for instance, while you can have surprises ! fastest answer, buy more reccordings and invest with local concert hall issue, live is better ! If the singers are not alive, focus your listening on the performance, forgett the soundstage or invest with more recordings. Some hifi sources can be the culpritt sometimes, i surmise the picolos to be easy to drive.
Then you can invest in a loudspeaker that could be better at that game like a monitor with a closer listening position to play with the rooms reflexions and stereo triangle - better to be in the triangle than outside as too much often seen. Advices given are very good : like getting aways the loudspeakers from the all the walls, finding the sweet spot in relation to the listening distance, etc.
Then you can play with EQ and room DSP with same speaker types and mic + EQ/DRC soft.
My advice and I think it's a good one : open your mind about on shelves speakers buy a all in one Neumann 320 monitors instead of cuting hairs with DIY that is more a hobby about sound reproduction than a goal itself to listen music when it comes to solve a problem in particular (here the soundstage while your diagnoss may be wrong, I never found 3D effect in classic events and big venues.)
You will have a three embeded active amp class AB, analog with some analog eq cursors, you can bypass the analog the day you want to EQ in numeric domain and try to reproduce the inroom curve according to standarts (ask a little inexpensive calibrated mic and free softwares) . Amp + 3 way loudspeaker solved in one purchase. Take a mortgage as the price will be more expensive in few months if you wait too much due to the FED !
Buy you the Toole book about sound reproduction. Oh, the loudspeakers has a dome medium, such a shape are a little better for soundstaging and the treble are also in wave guide that helps too in this regard !
Or try a cheap Behringer 2 way with its wave guide too to test if your room is not the definitive culpritt (too much dead or too much reflective), my hand that it has a better soundstaging than your picolos'.
hope this helps.
Listening operas and concerts with such a micro loudspeaker is like to go on the moon with a BMX, it's an understanding about what is a tool in relation to the task. Can not be good for that without a sub to mimic the low end of the venue and the mixing of the sound engineers : those events are mostly made of reflective sounds due to the size of the venue being a little chapelle or a big concert hall , so you need it all. While all the soundstage envelopment are in higher frequencies (500 hz to 5k hz mainly ?)
I first would try to find and choose reccordings known for their recording qualities, however it has no correlation with the performance of the musicians and singers as you know and you will have hard time to find soundstage feeling in some old recordings like Jussi Björling for instance, while you can have surprises ! fastest answer, buy more reccordings and invest with local concert hall issue, live is better ! If the singers are not alive, focus your listening on the performance, forgett the soundstage or invest with more recordings. Some hifi sources can be the culpritt sometimes, i surmise the picolos to be easy to drive.
Then you can invest in a loudspeaker that could be better at that game like a monitor with a closer listening position to play with the rooms reflexions and stereo triangle - better to be in the triangle than outside as too much often seen. Advices given are very good : like getting aways the loudspeakers from the all the walls, finding the sweet spot in relation to the listening distance, etc.
Then you can play with EQ and room DSP with same speaker types and mic + EQ/DRC soft.
My advice and I think it's a good one : open your mind about on shelves speakers buy a all in one Neumann 320 monitors instead of cuting hairs with DIY that is more a hobby about sound reproduction than a goal itself to listen music when it comes to solve a problem in particular (here the soundstage while your diagnoss may be wrong, I never found 3D effect in classic events and big venues.)
You will have a three embeded active amp class AB, analog with some analog eq cursors, you can bypass the analog the day you want to EQ in numeric domain and try to reproduce the inroom curve according to standarts (ask a little inexpensive calibrated mic and free softwares) . Amp + 3 way loudspeaker solved in one purchase. Take a mortgage as the price will be more expensive in few months if you wait too much due to the FED !
Buy you the Toole book about sound reproduction. Oh, the loudspeakers has a dome medium, such a shape are a little better for soundstaging and the treble are also in wave guide that helps too in this regard !
Or try a cheap Behringer 2 way with its wave guide too to test if your room is not the definitive culpritt (too much dead or too much reflective), my hand that it has a better soundstaging than your picolos'.
hope this helps.
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There has been consideable discussion about that and it is clear that there is a “just right” Rout for each system.
Higher damping (lower Rout) is only better (and everythign above 20 is much the same) when the impedance of the loudspeaker is ugly, which is unfortunatly most speakers with XOs which are by far the most common.
dave
Constant directivity loudspeakers are also an attempt to control the directivity, unlike other loudspeakers that are designed without regard for this. Loudspeakers without directivity control have varying radiation patterns above where the driver is omnidirectional; in fact, many of them have frequencies where their radiation is much more narrow than 90° (typical controlled directivity -6dB point) so I can’t see how this is helpful advise.
Perhaps you ar eamong the approximtely 10% of people that are incapable of generating the illusion of a soundstage/image?
You really only need to hear a system do this once to know it was real (a real illlusion).
dave
It seems that it is easy to cheerfully say: "it's nonsense", "it doesn't make sense", etc.
Well, then I say that it seems silly to me to say that you can achieve a GREAT soundstage in a SMALL space and with SMALL speakers, I did not say that it is impossible to change things A LITTLE in the case of the OP. Only a little. Everything can help, changing the amplifier, the speakers, the treatment of the room, etc. But it won't be worth the effort vs. results based on my experience, because I have had many different sound systems and in different environments.
I think you have not understood the part where I mention "for worse the OP likes classical music". The OP does not want to achieve the feeling of being live listening to a jazz trio! No, you want to achieve that aural sensation - the soundstage - as if you were listening to classical music in a concert hall!
And by the way it will be easier with a recording of chamber music (few instruments in a moderately sized environment) than with a recording of a symphony orchestra in a big theater. (many instruments in a huge space)
That said, what is meant by soundstage?
Have you been to a concert on a big stage? In what location? As you approach the orchestra, the soundstage will be chaotic - as if you were inside the orchestra, that's what a violin player, or oboe player, or clarinet player, etc. hears. - and if you are in the last row, it will be a "everything", but you will perceive it as something distant, with little individualization of the different instruments.
A location equidistant from the limits of the room - central - would be ideal, that's why people who are used to concerts try to get tickets in those locations that they consider privileged. As any person with common sense does in a cinematograph.
Here, in Argentina, we have an exception, all the regular attendees at the Teatro Colón assure that it is not necessary to pay for expensive seats, because in the upper box the sound is sublime. They call it "the chicken coop", located in a sector called El Paraiso. I was able to check it! There you identify each instrument visually and listen to the sound that radiates as if it were in front of you! , but at the same time is immersed in the general sound of the orchestra. But, there is no free lunch, you have to stand, although it is worth the effort. At least if you are young.
I don't think that those who built the Teatro Colón would have foreseen/calculated such an acoustic result.
I did not find links in English, sorry.
https://www.tripadvisor.com.ar/Show...on-Buenos_Aires_Capital_Federal_District.html
https://teatrocolon.org.ar/es/colondigital/lecturas/ocurrio-en-el-paraiso
https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historia_del_Teatro_Colón
With al due respect but I am really puzzled what I must have written that makes you think I'm saying anything like "it does not exist"
Maybe my English is really that bad or people really don't read but I think I am constantly referring to exactly the opposite
The Meniscusaudio piccolo was reviewed at -3 db to 60 hz, which as a classical fan, I would find adequate. My pair SP2(2004) are +- 3 db 54 hz to 17 khz. I feel no need for a sub although the end tone of Also Sprach Zarathrusta is down 10 db from concert level.
Certain classical records are recorded with 2 microphones out in the audience to pick up both direct and hall ambient sound. I find these to be the best at reproducing the orchestral/band/solo piano or organ experience. Comments about space in other musical genres are inappropriate, because the recording engineer make the space, not the band + building.
I vote for the deadening of the room. My room is 11 m w x 3.5 m tall x 4 m long, with a 10 m space chamber at the back through a 2.3 m opening. With carpet, many book & record shelves, acoustic tile ceiling, urethane stuffed furniture, 2 organs, I find it dead enough to hear the orchestra. My speaker spray highs above 2000 db -6 db over a 90 deg wide area. I had a previous pair, stolen, that were - 3db 500 hz to 16 khz over 45 degrees around the center.
If OP is in North America, it shouldn't cost an enormous amount to change amplifier to class AB, nor to replace the tweeter with something wider. Tweeters do not need an enclosure. I picked up a pair of RX22 equipped horns for $75 used, and after those were stolen, another pair were $170. Old Peavey SP2 or SP5 post 1982 have these CD horns in them, and usually the woofer is blown, not the tweeter. Look around on ebay or craigslist. There were some SP2-XT in Chicagoland for $300 the pair last month, those are the ones that are -3db 500 hz up over 45 degrees. The tweeter can be powered separately with a simple cap to block lows . TThe styling of the SP2 calls for a neon Beer sign at the front of the room, but the sound is IMHO top rate at 1 to 70 watts. SP2(2004) has harmonic distortion 2nd & 3rd charted by Peavey at 20 db down from 5 w level from 54 to 12 khz.
I listen to mezzopiano (loudness) music in my music room at 0.5 vac, or about 1/32 watt on 8 ohm 98 db 1w1m speakers. I don't see even a class AB amp getting out of class A for those waves.
Peaks in classical can go 60 db up or more, which would be 32 vac on my speakers. I have a 70 w/ch Peavey M-2600 amp I'm using now, .1% HD, that I paid $115 for on ebay. There was one in Canada yesterday for $25 + freight. Working ones in US yesterday were $160 up but it varies from day to day. No fan. Any 30 year old product like this will perform better with new rail caps and new bipolar input caps, but this is diyaudio after all.
If you have a couch you can hide the amp behind, a fan cooled PA amp like a PV-4c, CS400, CS600, CS800s or CS800x, QSC CX302 or CX502 or PLX1202 or RMX850, Crown XLS402 or XLS802 usually has HD specified <.05%. I picked up a CS302 for $115 + freight this summer, worked. Probably needs new rail caps for full power.
Experimentation shouldn't cost that much, unless you puchase professional sound deadening panels for the room.
Happy shopping, repairing, experimenting, building, listening.
Certain classical records are recorded with 2 microphones out in the audience to pick up both direct and hall ambient sound. I find these to be the best at reproducing the orchestral/band/solo piano or organ experience. Comments about space in other musical genres are inappropriate, because the recording engineer make the space, not the band + building.
I vote for the deadening of the room. My room is 11 m w x 3.5 m tall x 4 m long, with a 10 m space chamber at the back through a 2.3 m opening. With carpet, many book & record shelves, acoustic tile ceiling, urethane stuffed furniture, 2 organs, I find it dead enough to hear the orchestra. My speaker spray highs above 2000 db -6 db over a 90 deg wide area. I had a previous pair, stolen, that were - 3db 500 hz to 16 khz over 45 degrees around the center.
If OP is in North America, it shouldn't cost an enormous amount to change amplifier to class AB, nor to replace the tweeter with something wider. Tweeters do not need an enclosure. I picked up a pair of RX22 equipped horns for $75 used, and after those were stolen, another pair were $170. Old Peavey SP2 or SP5 post 1982 have these CD horns in them, and usually the woofer is blown, not the tweeter. Look around on ebay or craigslist. There were some SP2-XT in Chicagoland for $300 the pair last month, those are the ones that are -3db 500 hz up over 45 degrees. The tweeter can be powered separately with a simple cap to block lows . TThe styling of the SP2 calls for a neon Beer sign at the front of the room, but the sound is IMHO top rate at 1 to 70 watts. SP2(2004) has harmonic distortion 2nd & 3rd charted by Peavey at 20 db down from 5 w level from 54 to 12 khz.
I listen to mezzopiano (loudness) music in my music room at 0.5 vac, or about 1/32 watt on 8 ohm 98 db 1w1m speakers. I don't see even a class AB amp getting out of class A for those waves.
Peaks in classical can go 60 db up or more, which would be 32 vac on my speakers. I have a 70 w/ch Peavey M-2600 amp I'm using now, .1% HD, that I paid $115 for on ebay. There was one in Canada yesterday for $25 + freight. Working ones in US yesterday were $160 up but it varies from day to day. No fan. Any 30 year old product like this will perform better with new rail caps and new bipolar input caps, but this is diyaudio after all.
If you have a couch you can hide the amp behind, a fan cooled PA amp like a PV-4c, CS400, CS600, CS800s or CS800x, QSC CX302 or CX502 or PLX1202 or RMX850, Crown XLS402 or XLS802 usually has HD specified <.05%. I picked up a CS302 for $115 + freight this summer, worked. Probably needs new rail caps for full power.
Experimentation shouldn't cost that much, unless you puchase professional sound deadening panels for the room.
Happy shopping, repairing, experimenting, building, listening.
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Yes, I'm definitely still around. And fascinated by the various responses because so many of them are in direct contradiction of others. So, they can't all be right.
I'm still trying to sort all of this out before deciding what to do next.
Thanks for many the responses.