Brad Serhan (Orpheus Loudspeakers, Sydney) and myself have dubbed HDS Nomex drivers as "poor man's Scan-Speak" . For what they are, they are about the best driver for the dollar asked. Somewhere between a minor and a major miracle!
Joe R.
chrisb said:
here is a specific example for you. my subwoofer has 4 inches (p-p) of excursion (most of it linear) and 18" diameter. this is to say it has surface area of 10 illuminators and three times the linear excursion ... it costs about $1000. the illuminator delivers 1/30th of its linear displacement so all the displacement of the illuminator is worth 30 bucks.
now out of all this excursion less than half is the improvement over revelator (because revelator already had 60% of illuminators excursion) so all the improvement in linear excursion of the illuminator is worth 12 dollars.
in other words if increased linear excursion were the only benefit of switching to new motor then the illuminator is worth 12 dollars more than revelator.
this is not intended to start a debate. if you dont understand the argument, so be it.
mbutzkies said:
no, thats not the reason. its one of the reasons. the other reason is that the benefit realized is not proportional to the extra weight.
why dont we see many silver voice coils ? is it because silver is more expensive ? yes silver is more expensive but its not the reason. its one of the reasons. another reason is that for its benefit of better conductance silver has the disadvantage of being heavier than copper.
underhung driver has higher weight and lower power handling than an overhung driver ... its not just about cost
neodymium also costs more yet so many professional speakers use it. professional speakers don't use silver voice coils or underhung motors. why ?
its not all about cost ...
About speaker cost,
Under hung drivers dont have to cost much more than conventional ones.
If a manufacturer can sell a 15" stamped steel frame driver with 60oz magnet for about $100. I dont see why thay cant make underhung 7" driver using the same magnet as the 15" but with thicker front plate, for also about $100-. 😉
In theory, Underhung drivers are superior, But in practice, the difference in sound is not readily audible, And some conventional drivers performs better than underhung ones, 2 to 3 times the price.
Look at Zaph's test for example.click here
Under hung drivers dont have to cost much more than conventional ones.
If a manufacturer can sell a 15" stamped steel frame driver with 60oz magnet for about $100. I dont see why thay cant make underhung 7" driver using the same magnet as the 15" but with thicker front plate, for also about $100-. 😉
In theory, Underhung drivers are superior, But in practice, the difference in sound is not readily audible, And some conventional drivers performs better than underhung ones, 2 to 3 times the price.
Look at Zaph's test for example.click here
marchel said:
100 bucks should be about right for a woofer like illuminator considering you can get a 10" underhung woofer for $150
10" underhung woofer for $150
Lets just say there are human aspects such as greed and snobbery
Another thing is that SS obviously doesnt care much about being cost competitive, fore that they have Peerless/Vifa
We also like to believe we get something very exstraordinary when price is high, which unfortunately not always is the case... but surely I too would want a pair of those wonders, but because I probably cant afford them, I also like to think of them as nothing special
We will see about that, but lets just say that I expect them to be better than any other SS product 😀
Another thing is that SS obviously doesnt care much about being cost competitive, fore that they have Peerless/Vifa
We also like to believe we get something very exstraordinary when price is high, which unfortunately not always is the case... but surely I too would want a pair of those wonders, but because I probably cant afford them, I also like to think of them as nothing special
We will see about that, but lets just say that I expect them to be better than any other SS product 😀
vasyachkin said:
OK, thanks for the specifics, and not to "debate", but a few more questions / observations:
Can you name the 18" subwoofer in your example, and the application?
Not all systems need the massive amounts of excursion capability you describe
Your calculations for "value" are a bit specious, and don't take into account potential differences in sound quality, particularly at levels well below either design's limits - which except for professional PA & club level SPLs, is where I think they'd spend most of their operating life. Of course this latter consideration is still academic until such time as the new drivers actually get some listening time.
I don't think I need a high degree of technical acumen to understand the perceived arrogance of some of your posts better than you imagine.
"100 bucks should be about right for a woofer like illuminator considering you can get a 10" underhung woofer for $150"
That one uses NEO magnet already.🙂
"but because I probably cant afford them, I also like to think of them as nothing special "
Me too, But thanks to Zaph and other driver testers, I discovered that the expensive drivers arent that much special from the affordable ones, And for the price of one expensive driver ,I could buy 2 or 3 good performing affordable drivers like the peerless HDS or the Dayton RS or Ushers, to form MTM, rather than just TM if I bought the expensive ones.
The new SS woofers may have very long XMAX, I"m not sure though, if having very long xmax contribute to the sound quality in the midrange. other than weakend magnetic field and damping in the midrange, But let's wait till someone test them, for all I know the very expensive 7" audio tech.18H520---- were bettered by less expensive speaker.
Anyway, I'm not holding my breath for these new SS drivers, Since I'm not willing to spend that much money on speakers that I have to build myself. With blood sweat and tears. I'd rather buy me a pair of ready to use and very beautiful B&W N805s cost no more than $3,000-. If I have the money to burn.
For me, The reason for going the DIY way is to save money. These new expensive drivers, If they don't have real special and distinctively positive qualities about them, Are a real waste of money to DIY your speakers with, IMO
That one uses NEO magnet already.🙂
"but because I probably cant afford them, I also like to think of them as nothing special "
Me too, But thanks to Zaph and other driver testers, I discovered that the expensive drivers arent that much special from the affordable ones, And for the price of one expensive driver ,I could buy 2 or 3 good performing affordable drivers like the peerless HDS or the Dayton RS or Ushers, to form MTM, rather than just TM if I bought the expensive ones.
The new SS woofers may have very long XMAX, I"m not sure though, if having very long xmax contribute to the sound quality in the midrange. other than weakend magnetic field and damping in the midrange, But let's wait till someone test them, for all I know the very expensive 7" audio tech.18H520---- were bettered by less expensive speaker.
Anyway, I'm not holding my breath for these new SS drivers, Since I'm not willing to spend that much money on speakers that I have to build myself. With blood sweat and tears. I'd rather buy me a pair of ready to use and very beautiful B&W N805s cost no more than $3,000-. If I have the money to burn.
For me, The reason for going the DIY way is to save money. These new expensive drivers, If they don't have real special and distinctively positive qualities about them, Are a real waste of money to DIY your speakers with, IMO
tinitus said:but because I probably cant afford them, I also like to think of them as nothing special
i didn't say they weren't special. most likely they will be the best midwoofers of that size ever produced.
what im saying instead is that they do not offer any new possibilities for system design. i can build a system without them that will be as good as any system that can be built with them.
chrisb said:
Driver - TC Sounds LMS 5400
Application - 6 cubic foot sealed subwoofer
as far as quality ... the 5400 is more advanced than illuminator so i dont think that is an issue at all
marchel said:
saving money is part of it.
another part is building speakers that are unique.
problem is that while as a driver the illuminator is rather unique it is clearly designed for the most conventional of applications. this makes for a very poor price to fun ratio.
vasyachkin said:
I should have also included in my query regarding application - what type of system are these supporting, and what size room are they operating in?
As I think marchel was trying to say, and not to question this driver or your design - the "quality" of construction, pedigree of specs, etc of any of the more elite drivers don't necessarily guarantee "better" sonic performance in all applications.
marchel said:
not just a neo magnet. a radially magnetized neo magnet ... which makes it twice as advanced as illuminator. the illuminator is nothing more than a cheap imitation of that $150 driver.
vasyachkin said:
But they do offer new possibilities for a loudspeaker system. The option of cone material alone distinguishes it from 99% of drivers. Its giving the high end DIY'er more choice that can fit into their own preferences and all the while based around a seemingly competent motor and basket design. People who pay for high priced drivers like this aren't 100% focused on value in the traditional sense of out and out performance. They're often willing to pay more because the driver parameters(whatever they maybe) can be bent to their own choices. I bought from AT who can change many aspects of their base drivers. You could certainly buy something that measures as well for less but I designed the driver around the box, not the box around the driver. That's a big difference in the way you work. If the Scans are offering even small amounts of what AT is, then its noteworthy in my book.
If your talking about the physics relating to loudspeaker design and the fact that these drivers are still bound by the laws discovered and quantified by Thiele/Small all those years ago then no they don't offer a different way of designing from that perspective but I think that's so obvious as to not bother pointing out in the first place. To ask for such a change would be revolution and this is just evolution - a chance to make small improvements and offer a wider choice.
the problem are that this sub cannot go to 3kHz !!
seas and SS make great and simple work for DIY's ,i.e. two way perfect for europen room
seas and SS make great and simple work for DIY's ,i.e. two way perfect for europen room
vasyachkin said:
That i can agree with. I find most of the Danish offerings boring (conceptually & sonically) & very conservative.
dave
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