mikessi, agree with you.
I have not been a very big fan of belt drives as my experiences with its speed stability was never great. And when it comes to music, the most important aspect is the speed stability which the idler drive Dual 1229 has been offering consistently.
One of the issue with old Dual 1229 is with the tonearm wires which has been upgraded. With the headshell connections & muting switch cleaned and new tonearm wire, there is no issue with the "headshell connections" whatsoever. The gimbal bearings have no sloppiness. The tonearm can support mid to high compliance cartridges. The motor has been fully serviced and the rubber bushings are quite supple. New platter bearings are installed. Rest its serviced fully. The Dual 1229 has a neat floating chasis which damps all external interference effectively. The idler wheel of Dual 1229 is one of the best. Offcourse, it may not pass the stethoscope test but sounds very clean and great.
Yes, the Dual 1229 may not be the best test platform. Dual 1239 is very difficult to service and customize and hence does not get its true place it deserves. This may be a topic of discussion for a different thread all together
But as suggested, will try to make suitable arrangement shortly. Can guide on specific models if you have in mind? Any recommendation on belt/direct drives? Any particular make/models both vintage and new please.
I have not been a very big fan of belt drives as my experiences with its speed stability was never great. And when it comes to music, the most important aspect is the speed stability which the idler drive Dual 1229 has been offering consistently.
One of the issue with old Dual 1229 is with the tonearm wires which has been upgraded. With the headshell connections & muting switch cleaned and new tonearm wire, there is no issue with the "headshell connections" whatsoever. The gimbal bearings have no sloppiness. The tonearm can support mid to high compliance cartridges. The motor has been fully serviced and the rubber bushings are quite supple. New platter bearings are installed. Rest its serviced fully. The Dual 1229 has a neat floating chasis which damps all external interference effectively. The idler wheel of Dual 1229 is one of the best. Offcourse, it may not pass the stethoscope test but sounds very clean and great.
Yes, the Dual 1229 may not be the best test platform. Dual 1239 is very difficult to service and customize and hence does not get its true place it deserves. This may be a topic of discussion for a different thread all together
But as suggested, will try to make suitable arrangement shortly. Can guide on specific models if you have in mind? Any recommendation on belt/direct drives? Any particular make/models both vintage and new please.
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A more affordable solution could be a good second-hand SL1210.
You have to be lucky though, but my brother found one for €100 in perfect shape.
You have to be lucky though, but my brother found one for €100 in perfect shape.
There is a company called KAB that sells used technics tables and various mods for them. I have no direct experience with them, I just recall that they exist.
And as someone who lacks knowledge of these things, perhaps your entire systems should be on par with your cartridge. I'm not informed enough to evaluate your setup.
But as a devils advocate, you can't market a $2k cartridge and have all your tests and marketing based on a Crosley all in one system from Amazon. I'm sure your system is much better than that, but you get the point.
But as a devils advocate, you can't market a $2k cartridge and have all your tests and marketing based on a Crosley all in one system from Amazon. I'm sure your system is much better than that, but you get the point.
This one and the test tones are recorded on computer via MC Phono Pre.
At the risk of seeming negative, or dismissive, which is certainly not the case, my thoughts on this thread are that you, as an enthusiast, are asking other enthusiasts about an issue which may not ultimately be technical at all, but rather a business matter. If the goal is truly to develope a product for sale on what's now an international market, you really want to talk to a business or marketing person first, not later.
How much will this product cost and how much will it sell for, through at least one inevitable middleman? What other similar products already with brand name recognition exist in your intended markets? What extra sizzle can you provide? ("Don't sell the steak; sell the sizzle".)
This splash of cold water is not what you want to hear while in the throws of creativity, but for ordinary people is necessary. If, instead, you're financially able to front this project yourself, then ignore these negative waves, and Rock On! But there's an old, old saying in show business "Never put your own money into a show."
All good fortune,
Chris
How much will this product cost and how much will it sell for, through at least one inevitable middleman? What other similar products already with brand name recognition exist in your intended markets? What extra sizzle can you provide? ("Don't sell the steak; sell the sizzle".)
This splash of cold water is not what you want to hear while in the throws of creativity, but for ordinary people is necessary. If, instead, you're financially able to front this project yourself, then ignore these negative waves, and Rock On! But there's an old, old saying in show business "Never put your own money into a show."
All good fortune,
Chris
Thanks Chris for your encouraging comments and advise on business aspect. I will certainly consider all your inputs.
mahurkars:
This is a fascinating thread and I appreciate your efforts to launch a new product in a competitive, upscale market. What you're doing takes a lot of courage. I'm curious about scalability: assuming you find a credible path to marketing your cartridge, and further assuming demand exists for that cartridge, will you be able to scale up production to meet that demand? It's no small thing to manufacture a prototype -- kudos to you! However, scaling up for mass production is far more work and takes a lot of planning (quality assurance is key and quality criteria is often difficult to meet, especially as the manufacturing process evolves). I don't mean to be discouraging, but if you intrigue the audiophile press and get the moving coil marketplace talking about your cartridge and you can't fill orders with high quality product, interest in your cartridge and your investment will vanish overnight.
I concur with the other members who have urged you to consider finding someone with marketing expertise. I also think you should talk with someone experienced in scaling up manufacturing processes for product launches. Their counsel could be very illuminating for you.
Regards,
Scott
This is a fascinating thread and I appreciate your efforts to launch a new product in a competitive, upscale market. What you're doing takes a lot of courage. I'm curious about scalability: assuming you find a credible path to marketing your cartridge, and further assuming demand exists for that cartridge, will you be able to scale up production to meet that demand? It's no small thing to manufacture a prototype -- kudos to you! However, scaling up for mass production is far more work and takes a lot of planning (quality assurance is key and quality criteria is often difficult to meet, especially as the manufacturing process evolves). I don't mean to be discouraging, but if you intrigue the audiophile press and get the moving coil marketplace talking about your cartridge and you can't fill orders with high quality product, interest in your cartridge and your investment will vanish overnight.
I concur with the other members who have urged you to consider finding someone with marketing expertise. I also think you should talk with someone experienced in scaling up manufacturing processes for product launches. Their counsel could be very illuminating for you.
Regards,
Scott
Thanks Scott.
Some new and very good points brought by you which will need serious consideration.
This endeavour to build a new Moving Coil Cartridge and scale up still has a long way to go. This is just the beginning. Maintaining consistency in quality will have to take the highest priority. There is lot of manul efforts, patience and skills involved in the process. This will mean involving highly passionate and motivated team. I think that scaling up will have to be gradual. Probably will have to do a POC of this whole thing. Marketing is going to be another key aspect which will need expertise.
The ultimate aim is to enhance the joy of every vinyl enthusiast.
Some new and very good points brought by you which will need serious consideration.
This endeavour to build a new Moving Coil Cartridge and scale up still has a long way to go. This is just the beginning. Maintaining consistency in quality will have to take the highest priority. There is lot of manul efforts, patience and skills involved in the process. This will mean involving highly passionate and motivated team. I think that scaling up will have to be gradual. Probably will have to do a POC of this whole thing. Marketing is going to be another key aspect which will need expertise.
The ultimate aim is to enhance the joy of every vinyl enthusiast.
Have set up the Scott Wurcer's tool and it's helping in generating the frequency response. This will help to further fine tune . Thanks Netlist !
Does anyone have recommendations for any particular Test records with Frequency Sweep from 20Hz to 20kHz in one single track itself and with same amplitude?
I found this but I'm not familiar with it:
https://www.discogs.com/fr/release/...TY2u4_ZFtsNj0WcnoAXIDW0vktQdDgkylfTv1IEG0o9SR
A phono cartridge has a large flat frequency response over the middle of the audio range, with resonances on both ends. At the low end, its suspension compliance resonates with the effective (meaning all mass referenced proportionally to the stylus contact point) mass of cartridge, arm, counterweight, etc. So it doesn't really matter to you - you have no control over the arm mass, etc. and only need to describe the cartridge mass and compliance measured at about 10 Hz, maybe Q, to completely describe its low frequency behavior.
At the high end of frequency response, the stylus shape and size determine the geometric losses due to non-zero dimensions in the path of travel, and will be the same for all similarly shaped and sized styli and vary with the change in diameter of the record (and therefore wavelength), so it's only necessary to specify size and shape. Electrical variations due to loading are next to none for MC cartridges, so are also not an issue.
The tricky bit is the high frequency resonance between the stylus' effective (meaning referenced to the contact point) moving mass of stylus, cantilever, generator, etc. and the compliance of the vinyl surface. This tends to fall near the upper end of the audio range, or slightly above, for the best shapes and lightest constructions. So it could be specified by the moving mass and the stylus shape, which determines effective vinyl compliance.
Beyond this first order model of perfectly rigid lossless parts, (which you of course know, included here for completeness), the variations get much harder to measure. The remaining differences between various MC cartridges of similar stylus shape, effective tip mass, compliance at around 10Hz, etc. boil down to differences in cantilever rigidity, generator linearity, and such, which are very hard to measure with a test record. The records themselves tend towards flaws of the same order of magnitude as the device being tested.
On the brighter side there are rumors that an extreme audio guy (whose initials are Dave Slagle) is interested in the issue of test records and may be working on the topic.
All good fortune,
Chris
At the high end of frequency response, the stylus shape and size determine the geometric losses due to non-zero dimensions in the path of travel, and will be the same for all similarly shaped and sized styli and vary with the change in diameter of the record (and therefore wavelength), so it's only necessary to specify size and shape. Electrical variations due to loading are next to none for MC cartridges, so are also not an issue.
The tricky bit is the high frequency resonance between the stylus' effective (meaning referenced to the contact point) moving mass of stylus, cantilever, generator, etc. and the compliance of the vinyl surface. This tends to fall near the upper end of the audio range, or slightly above, for the best shapes and lightest constructions. So it could be specified by the moving mass and the stylus shape, which determines effective vinyl compliance.
Beyond this first order model of perfectly rigid lossless parts, (which you of course know, included here for completeness), the variations get much harder to measure. The remaining differences between various MC cartridges of similar stylus shape, effective tip mass, compliance at around 10Hz, etc. boil down to differences in cantilever rigidity, generator linearity, and such, which are very hard to measure with a test record. The records themselves tend towards flaws of the same order of magnitude as the device being tested.
On the brighter side there are rumors that an extreme audio guy (whose initials are Dave Slagle) is interested in the issue of test records and may be working on the topic.
All good fortune,
Chris
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First and foremost, congratulations on getting started.
Your story brings me back to the mid 90's, when I was a hifi salesman and our store would regularly be visited by enthusiasts who would inquire as to how feasible it would be to start their own hifi brand (predominantly speakers, back then, occasionally an amplifier designer). Usually a conversation and tour around the shop would outline to them how hard it would be not so much to design something that would sound great, but to do several other things:
1) distinguish themselves in a crowded market (i.e. story)
2) scale up from prototyping to real manufacturing and distribution (i.e. operation)
3) be a profitable business (i.e. finance)
Apart from seeking expertise from people in sales, marketing and operations, please talk to some guys who actually done it. Investigate the businesses building and selling cartridges today (you may be surprised about what you learn). Also, please understand that the regulatory environment makes it not easy to properly sell a consumer product in Europe or North America.
Good fortune!
Your story brings me back to the mid 90's, when I was a hifi salesman and our store would regularly be visited by enthusiasts who would inquire as to how feasible it would be to start their own hifi brand (predominantly speakers, back then, occasionally an amplifier designer). Usually a conversation and tour around the shop would outline to them how hard it would be not so much to design something that would sound great, but to do several other things:
1) distinguish themselves in a crowded market (i.e. story)
2) scale up from prototyping to real manufacturing and distribution (i.e. operation)
3) be a profitable business (i.e. finance)
Apart from seeking expertise from people in sales, marketing and operations, please talk to some guys who actually done it. Investigate the businesses building and selling cartridges today (you may be surprised about what you learn). Also, please understand that the regulatory environment makes it not easy to properly sell a consumer product in Europe or North America.
Good fortune!
RoHS and REACH will be most demanding regulations I suspect, as they require documentation from suppliers. Cartridges don't pose many hazards, beryllium cantilevers aside...
Actually thinking about it how is EMC testing applied to phono cartridges and preamps? Presumably you don't have to test every combination of transducer and amp, that's impractical, so do cartridges have individual EM susceptibility testing?
There may be stylus quality standards too, thinking about it.
Actually thinking about it how is EMC testing applied to phono cartridges and preamps? Presumably you don't have to test every combination of transducer and amp, that's impractical, so do cartridges have individual EM susceptibility testing?
There may be stylus quality standards too, thinking about it.