Look at the sealed sims posted earlier (post #153/#155). You typically want a Q=0.707 (butterworth) if you want to use the 2 sealed poles as your HP filter. For both F3 is about 90 Hz so that is where you would bring subs in at about that. Sims suggest a volume of about 5 litres (w damping) for the A11 and about 8 litre for the A7.
dave
PS: just now getting a 1st listen to the A11 in a tallish Woden MLTL. These are seriously good (what i said about the Jordans earlier).
dave
PS: just now getting a 1st listen to the A11 in a tallish Woden MLTL. These are seriously good (what i said about the Jordans earlier).
Please elaborate Dave & what did you say about the Jordan’s earlier ?
I’m very keen (& I’m sure others are just as keen) to hear your first impressions of this new generation of transducer, please don’t keep us hanging
I haven’t gotten as much time comparing the 3 drivers we had at diyFEST, but i can say (my opinions only, you might need to go to the 15th annual diyFEST thread to tease out other's opinions):
All 3 in Woden ML-TLs. A10.3eN, Alpair 11ms, Eikona2. The battle of apprentisem the master’s followup, and then the apprentises response… unfortunately Ted is no longer with us and able to continue the back-and-forth battle over best well under $1000/pr FR driver.
They are all really good. The EnABLed A10.3 was best capable of throwing a 3D image/soundstage. The A11ms has a silky top end that is hard to believe comes from a 6” driver. It has a very organic sound that i think pushes what has been done with FRs. It does not sound “hifi” but like music. The Eikona is a little rougher in comparison to the other 2 and doesn’t hang together as well. The presentation of the Eikona is closer to the A10.3eN, those 2 are really close (other than the imaging edge with the EnABLed driver)
People will ask about that big dip in the A11ms published response, this driver may have a bit of a haze over female voices, BUT… but that is only based on a guess as to what is coming off the recording. So it may just be presenting these in a way that is more natural but unlike what we have come used to.
I could live with any of them, but imaging is important to me so that would give an edge to the A10.3eN but i can EnABL both the other drivers and that should fix the issue (add $140-160 to the sell price). The big comparo is that A10.3eN are $340 USD (only paper A10 available any more thou), A11ms i estimate should come in at $270-300 USD/pr, the Eikona are $600/pr.
Given my preferance for the A7.3eN over A10.3eN, and that the published response of the A7ms looks better than the A11ms, i am very eager to get to listen to the A7ms as it promises to be very special based on what the larger sibling does.
In my miniOnken enclosures the 4” should reach similar depths to the 6” (but won’t move as much air and the larger driver fits a smaller optimm box for this alignment). Scott’s larger boxes will likely get more bass out of them. Certainly in the Woden ML-TL we demoed them in bass was outstanding (a bit ahead of the other 2, but one has to be cautious given the 3 different ML-TLs), at one point, driven by the bridged ACAs, when the drums came in on Matt Dunkley: Czech Film Orchestra, Rahman: Between Heaven & Earth i felt my chest being pressurized… a physical thump to the body from a 6” driver!!! With Tom's Modulus 686 (2 pair of 3 paralleled LM3886 bridged) the bass was different, not as visceral, seemingly plumbing the deepest depths with very good controlbut, to my mind, perhaps a bit to low an output impedance for the speakers (ie too much control).
Of interest was that the Sunday evening comparo was preempted by our big A12pWeN/A7.3eN MTM which was better than all 3. And plays loud. A couple full Pink FLoyd albums had me pinned to my seat. Promises even better things for an A7ms WAW.
Now Chris thinks the shallowness of the Hawking enclosure is a liability to the Eikona, i don’t know. So you may want to factor that in.
dave
All 3 in Woden ML-TLs. A10.3eN, Alpair 11ms, Eikona2. The battle of apprentisem the master’s followup, and then the apprentises response… unfortunately Ted is no longer with us and able to continue the back-and-forth battle over best well under $1000/pr FR driver.
They are all really good. The EnABLed A10.3 was best capable of throwing a 3D image/soundstage. The A11ms has a silky top end that is hard to believe comes from a 6” driver. It has a very organic sound that i think pushes what has been done with FRs. It does not sound “hifi” but like music. The Eikona is a little rougher in comparison to the other 2 and doesn’t hang together as well. The presentation of the Eikona is closer to the A10.3eN, those 2 are really close (other than the imaging edge with the EnABLed driver)
People will ask about that big dip in the A11ms published response, this driver may have a bit of a haze over female voices, BUT… but that is only based on a guess as to what is coming off the recording. So it may just be presenting these in a way that is more natural but unlike what we have come used to.
I could live with any of them, but imaging is important to me so that would give an edge to the A10.3eN but i can EnABL both the other drivers and that should fix the issue (add $140-160 to the sell price). The big comparo is that A10.3eN are $340 USD (only paper A10 available any more thou), A11ms i estimate should come in at $270-300 USD/pr, the Eikona are $600/pr.
Given my preferance for the A7.3eN over A10.3eN, and that the published response of the A7ms looks better than the A11ms, i am very eager to get to listen to the A7ms as it promises to be very special based on what the larger sibling does.
In my miniOnken enclosures the 4” should reach similar depths to the 6” (but won’t move as much air and the larger driver fits a smaller optimm box for this alignment). Scott’s larger boxes will likely get more bass out of them. Certainly in the Woden ML-TL we demoed them in bass was outstanding (a bit ahead of the other 2, but one has to be cautious given the 3 different ML-TLs), at one point, driven by the bridged ACAs, when the drums came in on Matt Dunkley: Czech Film Orchestra, Rahman: Between Heaven & Earth i felt my chest being pressurized… a physical thump to the body from a 6” driver!!! With Tom's Modulus 686 (2 pair of 3 paralleled LM3886 bridged) the bass was different, not as visceral, seemingly plumbing the deepest depths with very good controlbut, to my mind, perhaps a bit to low an output impedance for the speakers (ie too much control).
Of interest was that the Sunday evening comparo was preempted by our big A12pWeN/A7.3eN MTM which was better than all 3. And plays loud. A couple full Pink FLoyd albums had me pinned to my seat. Promises even better things for an A7ms WAW.
Now Chris thinks the shallowness of the Hawking enclosure is a liability to the Eikona, i don’t know. So you may want to factor that in.
dave
Hey Chris, I’m finished juggling these chainsaws, wanna take a turn?
Gee, thanks, Dave.
I’d start with;
-The A10.3s in Pensils have been my daily drivers for several months now, operating in my 7.1 surround system. They are the only set of the group with the majik polka dots, an for those firmly convinced it matters, they have many hundreds or hours of running time on them, in addition to that included as part of the EnABL process.
- The Eikonas are stock, and have been situated in Dave’s system for many weeks now, and must also certainly have passed most folks’ reasonable break-in threshold. I’m not sure how many of the Hawking monolith enclosures there are, but as Dave notes, after several listening sessions with them prior to an including this weekend, I’m of the suspicion that the shallow internal depth is at the very least putting them at a disadvantage in terms of early rear wall reflections clouding the midrange detail - and all that audiotweaker lexicon.
- The A11MS were fresh from the box when populated into their enclosures this past Thursday, and received no more than 4 hrs of moderate level listening, as well as overnight very low level background Calm Radio “the Spa” easylistening signal. All told there couldn’t have been 20hrs of riunning time before the festivities commenced.
As a side note, they were run at home and for most of the event on Tom Christiansen’s new Modulus686 - a very transparent amp whose horsepower torque curve seemed to be completely unaffected by all we threw at it Saturday.
I hate to used that tired cliche, but late Saturday’s session with some old Pink Floyd that I’ve heard hundreds of times on every system configuration of mine since the album came out - “ Wish You Were Here” - and which I consider a minor sacrilege to listen to anything less than in its entirety, but I was hearing nuances of background voices and instruments I’m sure I’d heretofore missed. “Hey You” and kids choir in “ we don’t need no thoht controhl” was also a ton of fun. By then we’d migrated to the all Alpair MTMs -saving the subjective speaker comparison to a more relaxed session Sunday morning. I could certainly live with that combination, and maybe now that I’m retired, may actually have more time for music that over the past 5 or so years.
Back on topic - very close horse race from what I heard here, with perhaps a combination of expectation bias and selling price at play with the new mono-suspension drive train, but I’d be inclined towards the new A11s over the Eikonas. As he still has both in his possession, I’m sure it’s only a matter of time before the Alpairs get treated, and no doubt he’s eager to get his ears and hands on a pair of the A7MS.
Gee, thanks, Dave.
I’d start with;
-The A10.3s in Pensils have been my daily drivers for several months now, operating in my 7.1 surround system. They are the only set of the group with the majik polka dots, an for those firmly convinced it matters, they have many hundreds or hours of running time on them, in addition to that included as part of the EnABL process.
- The Eikonas are stock, and have been situated in Dave’s system for many weeks now, and must also certainly have passed most folks’ reasonable break-in threshold. I’m not sure how many of the Hawking monolith enclosures there are, but as Dave notes, after several listening sessions with them prior to an including this weekend, I’m of the suspicion that the shallow internal depth is at the very least putting them at a disadvantage in terms of early rear wall reflections clouding the midrange detail - and all that audiotweaker lexicon.
- The A11MS were fresh from the box when populated into their enclosures this past Thursday, and received no more than 4 hrs of moderate level listening, as well as overnight very low level background Calm Radio “the Spa” easylistening signal. All told there couldn’t have been 20hrs of riunning time before the festivities commenced.
As a side note, they were run at home and for most of the event on Tom Christiansen’s new Modulus686 - a very transparent amp whose horsepower torque curve seemed to be completely unaffected by all we threw at it Saturday.
I hate to used that tired cliche, but late Saturday’s session with some old Pink Floyd that I’ve heard hundreds of times on every system configuration of mine since the album came out - “ Wish You Were Here” - and which I consider a minor sacrilege to listen to anything less than in its entirety, but I was hearing nuances of background voices and instruments I’m sure I’d heretofore missed. “Hey You” and kids choir in “ we don’t need no thoht controhl” was also a ton of fun. By then we’d migrated to the all Alpair MTMs -saving the subjective speaker comparison to a more relaxed session Sunday morning. I could certainly live with that combination, and maybe now that I’m retired, may actually have more time for music that over the past 5 or so years.
Back on topic - very close horse race from what I heard here, with perhaps a combination of expectation bias and selling price at play with the new mono-suspension drive train, but I’d be inclined towards the new A11s over the Eikonas. As he still has both in his possession, I’m sure it’s only a matter of time before the Alpairs get treated, and no doubt he’s eager to get his ears and hands on a pair of the A7MS.
How much damping is used behind the driver? IME the area around/behind the driver in shallow cabs [<1.5x driver depth] requires fairly dense packing of fiberglass insulation with cheesecloth or similar loosely draped over the driver to protect it from loose fibers. With this much density, there's no need to put any elsewhere unless damping the vent.
GM
Thanks! Unfortunately, I've very little experience with cotton and zero with Acoustastuff since fiberglass has historically been superior for the kind of wide band damping speakers normally require [dense], so no frame of reference.
GM
Oh, I've no doubt, just IME have been able to ameliorate it with fiberglass stuffing, i.e. make it somewhat aperiodic behind the driver for lack of a better description.
FWIW, it was a speaker like this one that clued me in: Altec Heathkit legato 2-15 inch horn & driver
GM
All very interesting. I receive my 7MS midweek and should have them installed by the weekend so I can give my thoughts then. However, I only have the A6.2M to compare to so I don't know how much use I will be here.
Greg, I may have to pick your brain on how you might suggest blending my alignment with my sealed subs!
To get mine run in properly I am going to have my fiance use them during the day for TV and light music. It stings a little that she will be the first to hear them!
Greg, I may have to pick your brain on how you might suggest blending my alignment with my sealed subs!
To get mine run in properly I am going to have my fiance use them during the day for TV and light music. It stings a little that she will be the first to hear them!
I’d thought my earlier comments were clear enough that I thought the several differences between devices under test - as well as the expectation and confirmation biases from which few of are immune - ensured this short and uncontrolled session would be less than rigorous enough to qualify for anything other than one of those subjective “one (all) of these things are not like the other(s)”?
I certainly enjoyed them all, and several others as well, when I has just listening to the music.
Greg, I may have to pick your brain on how you might suggest blending my alignment with my sealed subs!
Noways use digital to dial in the XO's point/slope/time delay [TD], arguably the greatest audio invention since the point source driver since the room ~totally dominates speaker system performance down low.
Considering a female's overall superior hearing and how 'off' a new 'FR' driver can sound, she may wind up 'stinging' you a bit over this 'opportunity' you magnanimously bestowed upon her.
GM