Totally agree !! boys some of you are spoiled like a small child ....I think you guys got it all wrong!
There's nothing wrong with the early Katana!!! I think that's been claryfied
more then once.
You better be grateful that you can get a replacement (enhancement!) and a goody on top.
That's more than fair!
And I think it's also more than fair that you return your fully working unit at your own cost.
You still make a nice profit!
If you don't like that just keep your device.
Bottom line. You guys better cut the crap!
I think you guys got it wrong!
There's nothing wrong with the early Katana!!! I think that's been claryfied
more then once.
Be grateful that you get a replacement (enhancement!) and a goody on top.
That's more than fair!
And I think it's also more than fair if you return your fully working unit at your own cost.
If you don't like it just keep your device.
You guys better cut the crap!
I said that allo will just issue this isolator 2 to those who haven't received yet the Katana 1.1. This is my sentiment.
And your claim that nothing is wrong with Katana; can you explain the voluntary recall drive of Allo? I think Allo fired the gun easily with the product proposition "Katana will ace out DACs priced sub $1000". With the statement: " The Katana is a complex DAC that offers multiple filtering and powering options....A new version, the 1.2, is in the works and will only have a few components changed resulting in a subtle, yet necessary SQ improvement.... Do you think katana 1.1 will yield the same credibility as a DAC to subdue DACs that are under $1000. I bought in at this marketing proposition. How do I position my Katana 1.1? DAC that will beat $800, $900, $999.99? I paid because I trusted that it will beat $1000 DACs
This is merely betrayal of customer expectation.
Earlier on soundcheck maybe your voice were heard along with the respected reviewers of Allo. Im not sure wether your one of the first 20 folks who received Katana for review. Its time for Allo to hear the plight of "ordinary" loyal customer.
Where on earth can you find a hardware that within weeks of its release a new version comes out. And as you receive your package Allo had just issue a manufacturing halt of the product. This is not a software soundcheck. Paying your hard earned $250+ deserve better than this. I invested trust on Allo for its Digione and Usbridge.
It is a voluntary recall of Allo. They never changed the mantra that katana will beat $1000 DAC. I would have accepted the fact if they say Katana to beat DAC under $1500 with Katana 1.2.
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Marudo, as I said a few times you will get the isolator and Katana 1.2. Customer support was not clear on it , so again I will repeat. Anyone that ordered a Katana will receive a Katana 1.2 and free isolator.
Marudo , Katana is a good dac as far as machine testing show. Jitter is lower than any dac in the market , THD+N is beat by only 4 DACs (all of them more expensive that 2000$) and intermodulation distortion is also excellent.
Still we felt (and with some feedback from reviewers) that we could improve sound quality further. So we halted production and did many audio tests in order to achieve just that.
Further I announced that everyone that has a Katana will received a Katana 1.2 and a free isolator as an apology that our SQ was not tested properly (and dont forget that SQ is very subjective)
So please , wait for the new Katana and your isolator .
We have a reputation in the industry for producing quality products with good prices and for taking care of our customers.
Yes we made a mistake on the SQ (trusting machines too much) and we are apologizing with a better Katana and free isolator.
Thanks CDSGames. MAybe Allo as a Company should have a proper communication channel and manage product voluntary recall properly. It was not clear whether the customer should shoulder the cost of sending the Katana 1.1 back to India. In my case, I have to travel 100 km under a 52 deg C environment just to send it to a "reliable" courier. Im not charging Allo for that inconvenience. Maybe its fair enough for customers who doesn't have to leave their premise and have a door to door service. I reacted from that declaration of customer service. Also, you have to understand that it will leave a stigma to many customers like me. Say for example, I visit Allo website 5x a day on an average day dreaming of the next product I will order; revision within one week of Katana made me to reflect "If I purchase Volt amp now, maybe tomorrow it will have a new version...
I purchased some products and addins; I invested a trust to Allo's quality. This should be a way pf patting the back of loyal customers.
I spoke to CS and we understand the situation. Do not ship back the Katana , keep it (makes no sense to send it back)
I understand your frustration but understand also that I have been clear on those forums and using multiple channels will only add to the confusion .
Katana 1.2
Hi all ,
after extensive audio testing testings I am very happy with the sound quality of Katana 1.2
As a result of mods , thd+n was further increase by about 0.7db (not much)
Boards are being modified and we will start shipping them on Friday 7 (or before) of September
Priority (first batch) will be sent to our customers along with free isolator. All reviewers will receive an isolator and new Katana 1.2
Best filter (to my ears) is " Linear Phase slow roll off"
Hi all ,
after extensive audio testing testings I am very happy with the sound quality of Katana 1.2
As a result of mods , thd+n was further increase by about 0.7db (not much)
Boards are being modified and we will start shipping them on Friday 7 (or before) of September
Priority (first batch) will be sent to our customers along with free isolator. All reviewers will receive an isolator and new Katana 1.2
Best filter (to my ears) is " Linear Phase slow roll off"
Nirvana PSU
0-3.1 A max power
5.2V output at 0.5A
5V output at 3A
We are awaiting new PCBs for Nirvana PSU. Production is still pending on new PCB testing , FCC approval , so its not for right away
I am attaching some readings taken at 1A and 2A.
Please note that those are real readings in real office environment . In controlled environment we get about 15% less noise
In our testings no SMPS on the market has less noise. (even if their marketing says otherwise)
Differential noise at 20Khz is only one thing... still HF noise is important. Also think about common node noise and leakage currents.
Nirvana was made to shine in :
0-20Khz DM noise (and up to 10Mhz)
Common mode noise is very low
Leakage currents (very low to beging with) can be removed by grounding the DC side using a sw (or left floating)
Impendance (right at the output connector , yes Klaus we have the screw in at that point , we added some capacitance and supercap)
Before I forget...one more noise we took care of. Diodes (and mosfet SW) are filtered multiple times so your mains (AC) wont be polluted by RF. We really made a lot of efforts to clean it since lots of people will use Nirvana with sensitive audio equipment . CMC , RC snubbers were used across every switching element along with inductors on ground and +
Since this is not analog , I am confident what machine testing say : Nirvana is an over engineered SMPS that was designed to be the best 5V power supply in every aspect of noise.
0-3.1 A max power
5.2V output at 0.5A
5V output at 3A
We are awaiting new PCBs for Nirvana PSU. Production is still pending on new PCB testing , FCC approval , so its not for right away
I am attaching some readings taken at 1A and 2A.
Please note that those are real readings in real office environment . In controlled environment we get about 15% less noise
In our testings no SMPS on the market has less noise. (even if their marketing says otherwise)
Differential noise at 20Khz is only one thing... still HF noise is important. Also think about common node noise and leakage currents.
Nirvana was made to shine in :
0-20Khz DM noise (and up to 10Mhz)
Common mode noise is very low
Leakage currents (very low to beging with) can be removed by grounding the DC side using a sw (or left floating)
Impendance (right at the output connector , yes Klaus
we have the screw in at that point , we added some capacitance and supercap)Before I forget...one more noise we took care of. Diodes (and mosfet SW) are filtered multiple times so your mains (AC) wont be polluted by RF. We really made a lot of efforts to clean it since lots of people will use Nirvana with sensitive audio equipment . CMC , RC snubbers were used across every switching element along with inductors on ground and +
Since this is not analog , I am confident what machine testing say : Nirvana is an over engineered SMPS that was designed to be the best 5V power supply in every aspect of noise.
Attachments
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Allo number one...!!! But pls make a note on shipping package that it is free of charge. Because, we need pay for government tax one more time. Many thanks !!!
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The better the system the less you can stand any "funny" filter.
* The best filter is no filter! That's rule number one.
All filters impact the sound.
* A filter is always a compromise: masking sound vs. masking flaws
That's why I bypass them on Boss and Piano DACs.
How many filters did they "brew" in the Soekris filter brewing thread???
I hope that Allo's gonna offer one day an "use at your own risk" firmware ( with rollback option
) that allows to bypass the on-dac filters for the more advanced users - as discussed earlier. PS:
I saw the Volumio review has been updated. It's a little better now.
Most of them will be obsolete soon anyhow. All of the reviewers have to
redo the job. Non of the existing reviews will match the actual product out there.
I'm wondering about this as well...
1) Is using the new Isolator board recommended with the Katana 1.2 stack?
2)If so, do we place it just above the RPi, and need to add an additional power supply (e.g., if one were using a 2 PSU method prior to Isolator, one would now need 3 power supplies)?
3) Does it make the acrylic case useless?
4) Will we be receiving an email once the Katana 1.2's are shipped?
Thanks again, cdsgames!
1) Is using the new Isolator board recommended with the Katana 1.2 stack?
2)If so, do we place it just above the RPi, and need to add an additional power supply (e.g., if one were using a 2 PSU method prior to Isolator, one would now need 3 power supplies)?
3) Does it make the acrylic case useless?
4) Will we be receiving an email once the Katana 1.2's are shipped?
Thanks again, cdsgames!
Soundcheck,
You do a disservice to those reading this thread without your years of experience and knowledge when you say:
Virtually nothing happens in Audio without filters. Power supply filters, speaker crossover filters, AC line filters to name just a few… and of course, digital playback filters which with most current-production chips includes 1-2 or more filters in the D-to-A conversion process and in most DACs 1-3 or more filters in the output stages.
What Ioan referred to is one of the filters in the ES9038Q2M chip that can be selected, BUT NOT BYPASSED. So AFAIK, you won’t be seeing a filter bypass on the Katana.
What you referred to on the Boss and Piano DACs are likely both the similar filters in the DAC chip (that can be bypassed by upsampling to 384kHz) and the output filters, which in these DACs can be bypassed by removing the filter caps.
AND the equivalent output filters in the Katana CANNOT be bypassed without serious surgery on the output board.
So I believe what you are saying is that you prefer to substitute your upsampling filters for the built-in ones in the Piano and Boss DACs’ DAC chips and bypass the output filters.
Please clarify if I read your comments wrongly.
My own view on filters is they are a necessary part of almost ALL audio components, whether you like it or not. In the case of the Katana, my understanding is you can select one of the filters used in the D-to-A conversion, but not the other… review the datasheet for more details… and if I misunderstood this, please correct me.
And the output filter is a more complex one in the Katana that includes a portion in the output stages’ feedback loops and other portions as passive filtering on the output feeds. IMHO, you bypass these at your own risk UNLESS you know what you’re doing (I know I DON”T know enough about that realm to monkey with them).
I did spend some time comparing the various DAC chip filter selections and found the Minimum Phase Slow Rolloff to sound best to my ears and in my setup. It provided the best separation between instruments and voices and layering of depth. AND I listened to several permutations of the output filters used by Allo and provided them with feedback on which I preferred, again to my ears and in my setup.
I’ve found that getting both the correct filter mix, profiles and rolloffs goes a long way to getting the best sound out of a digital playback system. AND what I heard listening to the options tried by Allo confirmed that, with 1 set of output filters providing significantly better sound in my tests than the others, especially when coupled with the Minimum Slow DAC filter selection.
I won’t go into more details than that, as Allo is doing further development in this area.
Also, Soundcheck you do a disservice to those reading your comments and these threads when you use derisive and derogatory comments in your responses:
AND
Soundcheck, your tutorials on setup and optimizing a playback setup using Squeezlite, Logitech’s LMS Server, and the RPi are THE primer in my opinion. I always refer people to them when they want to know how to setup one of these systems.
I don’t follow or agree with everything you suggest. I can point that out as my opinion without using belittling personal attacks such as “more of this stuff -- please! You've got a talent to get people exhausted. ”
You can to.
Do better.
Greg in Mississippi
You do a disservice to those reading this thread without your years of experience and knowledge when you say:
The better the system the less you can stand any "funny" filter.
* The best filter is no filter! That's rule number one.
All filters impact the sound.
* A filter is always a compromise: masking sound vs. masking flaws
That's why I bypass them on Boss and Piano DACs.
<SNIP>
Virtually nothing happens in Audio without filters. Power supply filters, speaker crossover filters, AC line filters to name just a few… and of course, digital playback filters which with most current-production chips includes 1-2 or more filters in the D-to-A conversion process and in most DACs 1-3 or more filters in the output stages.
What Ioan referred to is one of the filters in the ES9038Q2M chip that can be selected, BUT NOT BYPASSED. So AFAIK, you won’t be seeing a filter bypass on the Katana.
What you referred to on the Boss and Piano DACs are likely both the similar filters in the DAC chip (that can be bypassed by upsampling to 384kHz) and the output filters, which in these DACs can be bypassed by removing the filter caps.
AND the equivalent output filters in the Katana CANNOT be bypassed without serious surgery on the output board.
So I believe what you are saying is that you prefer to substitute your upsampling filters for the built-in ones in the Piano and Boss DACs’ DAC chips and bypass the output filters.
Please clarify if I read your comments wrongly.
My own view on filters is they are a necessary part of almost ALL audio components, whether you like it or not. In the case of the Katana, my understanding is you can select one of the filters used in the D-to-A conversion, but not the other… review the datasheet for more details… and if I misunderstood this, please correct me.
And the output filter is a more complex one in the Katana that includes a portion in the output stages’ feedback loops and other portions as passive filtering on the output feeds. IMHO, you bypass these at your own risk UNLESS you know what you’re doing (I know I DON”T know enough about that realm to monkey with them).
I did spend some time comparing the various DAC chip filter selections and found the Minimum Phase Slow Rolloff to sound best to my ears and in my setup. It provided the best separation between instruments and voices and layering of depth. AND I listened to several permutations of the output filters used by Allo and provided them with feedback on which I preferred, again to my ears and in my setup.
I’ve found that getting both the correct filter mix, profiles and rolloffs goes a long way to getting the best sound out of a digital playback system. AND what I heard listening to the options tried by Allo confirmed that, with 1 set of output filters providing significantly better sound in my tests than the others, especially when coupled with the Minimum Slow DAC filter selection.
I won’t go into more details than that, as Allo is doing further development in this area.
Also, Soundcheck you do a disservice to those reading your comments and these threads when you use derisive and derogatory comments in your responses:
<SNIP> any "funny" filter.
<SNIP> How many filters did they "brew" in the Soekris filter brewing thread???
AND
"Quick and dirty linear..." more of this stuff -- please!
<SNIP> And please no BS and no prose!
Soundcheck, your tutorials on setup and optimizing a playback setup using Squeezlite, Logitech’s LMS Server, and the RPi are THE primer in my opinion. I always refer people to them when they want to know how to setup one of these systems.
I don’t follow or agree with everything you suggest. I can point that out as my opinion without using belittling personal attacks such as “more of this stuff -- please!
You've got a talent to get people exhausted. ”You can to.
Do better.
Greg in Mississippi
@Greg
I'm not saying there's no need for filters.
All tech is flawed. You need filters to cover that mess up.
However. (I guess) You recently learned over at Ians' thread that he prefers a pretty filterless power supply (battery and supercaps) - the best he ever had a chance to listen to.
And that's basically what I'm talking about.
Of course you can have your own opinion about the subject.
SW filters:
SW filters always have side effects. Many side effects.
They all add a certain flavor to the sound.
And further. HW based/integrated SW filters usually come with limitations caused by lack of computing power or low Q filters of that HW solution.
Because of this there's a good chance that bypassing these filters with better filters on the PC can be the prefered solution.
It's always about finding the best compromise for your very own system and ears at a certain point in time.
Enjoy.
PS: And Greg - please - no flattery!
I'm not saying there's no need for filters.
All tech is flawed. You need filters to cover that mess up.
However. (I guess) You recently learned over at Ians' thread that he prefers a pretty filterless power supply (battery and supercaps) - the best he ever had a chance to listen to.
And that's basically what I'm talking about.
Of course you can have your own opinion about the subject.
SW filters:
SW filters always have side effects. Many side effects.
They all add a certain flavor to the sound.
And further. HW based/integrated SW filters usually come with limitations caused by lack of computing power or low Q filters of that HW solution.
Because of this there's a good chance that bypassing these filters with better filters on the PC can be the prefered solution.
It's always about finding the best compromise for your very own system and ears at a certain point in time.
Enjoy.
PS: And Greg - please - no flattery!
Not Ioan, but I can answer some of the questions...
I have one of the Isolator 1.2 units here and used it in my trials with the Katana. I found it added a sense of 'quiet' to the background and calmed the overall sound in positive ways that allowed more natural and detailed sound. This is consistent with my experiences of isolator boards with other RPi DAC HATS.
The output (Secondary) side of the board is designed to be powered by the board above. In case of the Katana, that means you HAVE to have installed the jumper on J30 on the DAC board so that it feeds the board below.
The input (Primary) side of the board is designed to share power with the RPi. You can either:
- feed 5V into the RPi and leave the jumper on J26 off
or
- feed 5V into the RPi and install the jumper on J26.
I found it worthwhile and would not use a Katana without it, just as I won't use the RPi as a source for any other DAC (RPi mounted or separate) with an isolator board in place.
Of course this means at a minimum that with the Isolator, to gain any benefit from it, you need to power the stack with at least 2 power supplies. One COULD power the stack from a single high-current (3A+) supply with a Y-connector running to power the Katana stack and the Isolator input/RPi together, but that would defeat the ground isolation and eliminate any benefit of the Isolator.
I'll leave it to Allo to answer the questions on the product case and other Allo-specific questions.
Greg in Mississippi
Do you know mezzanine board from this forum ?
Mezzanine Power board for Raspberry Pi
Does new Iso can replace it? I'm using a mezzanine power supply board for Pi 3. And I also remove DC/DC IC regulator on Pi 3.
Thanks !
Slightly confused - 2 PSUs - one to uController and is the other to the ISO or the RPi? A previous post suggested that it could be either to the ISO or the RPi. Any advantage / disadvantage to either of the two?
Will also be interesting to see a bake off between different PSUs!
Thanks.