need honest opinion the sound of this speaker?

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#41
This is the response you can expect with FF125wk in LePetit Onken. REALLY ugly. And the big boost well below Fs could destroy the driver as well.

Acurate, defined, controlled bass? I’d guess more like 1-note bass. But if you don’t listen to anything that goes as low as that peak it is more like an infinite baffle.

FF125wk-in-LePetiteOnkenSim.png


FF103A (pictured in the video still above) will be eben worse — usually, depends on where they settle.

This guy seems a waste of time to me.

dave
 
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#43
Just to be sure we are talking about the same thing Dave, the design in question was proposed by Jean Hiraga in the 80s (?) and it was using the fe103sigma in an oversized bassreflex cabinet. Like this (not sigma in PIC)
02-LES-SUPPORTS-POUR-LE-PETIT-RENDER-1.jpg


Here is a page that lists "I am Mad"'s build guide with sound samples. I'm really curious to hear what you make of this design Dave.

https://boeses-vinyl.de/mehr-zur-lepetit-nach-jean-hiraga/
 
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#48
What is ugly? School us! My limited understanding is that its tuned for extension which makes the midbass somewhat lean, supposing that gets evened out through room gain.

I would very much like to see a similar chart for the FE103Sigma and the FE103NV - AND your opinion dave how they compare in this box.

I'm attaching the full issue from the L'audiophile. Petit starts at page 60.
 

Attachments

#50
planet10 said:
To which driver are the parameters the same?



I did. No way am i searching thru hours of video to find one small piece of info.

View attachment 1117320

If the above is the box you propose, it will work pretty much as an infinite baffle, it is WAY to big for a reflex — the optimal miniOnken for the FF125wk is 9 litres, this box is 161 litres. And as drawn woefully underbraced.

dave
Click to expand...
This drawing is actually for 12" woofer (cutout diameter 280mm) It is a subwoofer for Small Onken! "Ultra-Basse"
 
#51
I used OCR&google translate, reads surprisingly well! Ah the wonders of tech😀

--P1--

In our n • 29 of September, we spoke to you in the section “We speak about it” of the small
Fostex FE-103 loudspeaker, a real darling for more than twenty years with amateurs
Japanese. We also gave you a boss reflex charging diagram for this speaker.
Many readers, curious to know more, asked us many questions about this
topic. Since then, we have tackled the question, made various tests and taken the necessary step back
to tell you more about it. Originally, we did not think to devote an article properly
said to this 10 cm which "cash" barely ten watts! Yet the regulars we
have so many reductions that we were unable to enjoy this pleasure.

Characteristics

As we mentioned
in No. 29, the Fostex FE-103
exists in two versions: FE-103
and FE-103 Sigma. References
extremely close, these two
speakers turn out all of
even very different. The mem-
brane of a common texture
to both models is, to none
to doubt, one of the strengths, of
these speakers, She is not
without recalling the membrane in
beige brystol from the famous Low-
ther. More muscular, the version
103 Sigma has an engine
much more powerful, the weight
total is affected since it is
960 @ in the Sigma version for
630g in the basic version
(specifically the engines
respectively have masses of
386g and 193g).

Both 100 mm in dia-
meter, their resolution frequencies
nance is 80 Hz for the 103 and
70 Hz for the Sigma. That
is explained by a light mass-
ment higher for the second
version, i.e. 2.9 g against 2.7 g.

The precision given by the
manufacturer on these frequencies
resonance is + 15 Hz,
it is a tolerance that can
appear wide, however the reader
you should know that it is a
very common value for
loudspeakers manufactured in large series.

The Qo is respectively
0.35 and 0.32 for normal and
Sigma, returns 89 dB/
W/m and 90dB/W/m.

Cutoff frequencies
high are in both cases
18,000 Hz. The power allowed
output is 15 W in music mode.
cal according to the manufacturer,
at the moment we don't have any
not roasted yet!

We give you in figure
1 the manufacturer curves of the
two models, as well as the
impedance gaps.

Load

The type of load we
have


--P2--

retained is of course
ment a bass reflex chord
taking care to have a
surface vent/top surface
high speaker. In our
we took a value of
0.7, i.e. a diameter of 70 mm
for the vent, its depth is
set at 139mm. We sleep you
let's see again the diagram of
enclosure in figure 2, It is identi-
tick to that which appeared in n° 29.

Realize in an agglomerate
extremely inert special
walls have a thickness of
25 mm, assembly must be
carried out in such a way as to guarantee
maximum rigidity. Thereby,
for our prototype, as
as shown in the photos, the wall
rear is embedded in the
side walls machined from sheet
lure. The seal must be natural
ment to be perfect.

The panel receiving the vent
comes to rest against the enclosure
itself, it is screwed and
glue. It helps to strengthen
still the rigidity of the whole.

The loudspeaker is fixed
on the enclosure from the front
with, of course, a
seal.

Fig. 2: Drawing of the enclosure. Felt pads all the interior walls of the enclosure. Use to
production of a very high density material, as inert as possible.


--P3--

Fig 4: Bass response. The steadily descending curve represents
feel the direct emission from the loudspeaker. The other, with a marked emphasis
cated at 40 Hz, is the response of the vent. These measurements were taken near
from each of the emission sources. To get an idea of the overall response,
| should be the summation between these two curves.

The interior of the enclosure is
padded on all sides
with wool felt, thick-
over 10 mm, such as the one used in
the Onken boxes.
Finally, the vent is made in
a PVC tube glued to the face
before.
Performances
We give you in figure
1the response of the speaker in the
mid-high from 200 Hz
in the axis and at 30°, we find,
With a few small differences, the performances given
by the manufacturer. We will note
a slight dip in the response
in the axis between 1000 and
2000 Hz. This one is in no way
critical since by deviating from
the axis the curve attenuates very
gradually from
2000 Hz. It appears at 12 kHz
a small peak which moreover
finds listening and gives a
slight treble accent. That
is not unpleasant, well
contrary, without this accentuation
the restitution will undoubtedly be
a little dull with a print
lack of treble. Finally, the
steadily rising curve
in the axis is a good point.
For the serious, we give you-
no in figure 4 the answer
up to 200 Hz. To see clearly
what happens between the show
of the loudspeaker and that of
the vent, the measurements were made
close to each source
these issue. In the grave,
of course, the vent takes
the relay and delivers its maximum
amplitude at 40 Hz.
note in this connection that on the example
please with which we made
these measures, the frequency of
loudspeaker resonance was
over 90 Hz, also a chord
of vents placed around 50 Hz would have
was preferable. The gap can
seem important compared to
to the manufacturer's data,
we are at the limits of
tolerances of + 1S Hz that it
announcement. However, it should
dra to analyze the evolution of this
parameter over time. It's necessary
know that any loudspeaker
prowls, the peripheral suspension
and the spider soften, this
which has the effect of lowering
the resonant frequency. This is
a very important point as well
Onken boxes equipped with the
416-8, the loudspeaker break-in...


--P4--

(under img)The interior of the enclosure is lined with felt on all walls. It is a 10 mm thick wool-based felt. Her
density is of the order of ! 500 g per m* in this thickness.

...is crucial and changes completely
all reproduction (cf.
The Audiophile No. 2). Sure,
we are dealing here with a small
loudspeaker, the requirements are
naturally less.

We will end this paragraph
phe devoted to measurements in
communicating to you the perfor-
distortion mances in fig. 5 where
are represented the level of
harmonic 2 (highest level)
low at 30 Hz), and the harmonic
3 (highest level at 30 Hz).
The results are quite simple-
superb considering the
means used. The
respective levels of the harmonics
2 and 3 follow each other very
gradually depending on the
frequency without predominance
of harmonic 3. Beyond
S kHz, there is practically no
more than harmonic 2. This is
a point to bring closer-
lies with the absence of any
hardness at the top of the spectrum.
Listening

It's almost embarrassing to speak
listening to this little
pregnant. The obtained results
are so amazing
taking into account the means provided
work and the smallness of the top-
speaker that it is difficult
to be credible on paper. He
have to listen to it.

The overall homogeneity is
excellent. The bass is present,
of course you will never
the energy of a 38 cm, and con-
overall makes a very good
balance, yet it is not
the level of bass that this
small enclosure is capable of res-
title that surprises the most but
rather his extraordinary capa-
quoted resolution and that on everything
spectrum. Whatever the mes-
wise, one perceives a multitude
information, small details.
The absence of any filtering, the
speaker being engaged
directly on the amplifier, is not
certainly no stranger to this
amazing definition,

The overall dynamic
is very good, the deviations of
level are fully respected |
tees without excessive settlement on the
strong modulations.

Of course, the treble is a bit
truncated, it is difficult to everything...


--P5--

Fig. 5: 20 to 20,000 Hz distortion of the speaker. The highest level curve
high at 30 Hz represents harmonic 3, the other harmonic 2. Note
that from 200 Hz, the level of distortion hardly exceeds 1%.

(img1) The engine of the FE-103 Sigma. Originally, it consisted of two super-ferrites
posts. From now on, there is only one and very generously sized.

(img2) Detail of the assembly, the panel
removable rear comes to fit
on the side walls machined in
rabbet. Assembly should be
as precise as possible to ensure
ie excellent sealing.

...have. It is however excellent
quality, soft and fine at the same time.
To conclude, we
we will be sure to use this small
enclosure with amplifiers
of quality because its power to
resolution forgives none
electronic fault. Not
use too many amplifiers
powerful, they would risk
degrade the loudspeaker whose
allowable power remains all-
times limited. With a 20 W or
even an 8 W class A with the -
what we tried this
model the results are super
bes. The performance of the speaker
is of the order of 92 dB/W/m. And
believe us, it is possible to
get out of acoustic levels
very important with quality
worthy of large systems. The image
sound finally, because we
works in broadband, is
beautifully restored
since there is absolutely no
phase problem.

We can only encourage
ger the reader to undertake this
very economical realization then
that the FE-103 Sigma costs
barely more than 250 F. Do not neglect
manage the quality of materials
employed to make the cash register.
This speaker deserves to be
cared for. There is no doubt
other possible optimizations
for this speaker if however
we get results
even higher, which
wouldn't nothing, we wouldn't miss-
would not laugh at you
ask.
Click to expand...
 
#52
bridger2086 said:
Just to be sure we are talking about the same thing Dave, the design in question was proposed by Jean Hiraga in the 80s (?) and it was using the fe103sigma in an oversized bassreflex cabinet. Like this (not sigma in PIC)
View attachment 1117525

Here is a page that lists "I am Mad"'s build guide with sound samples. I'm really curious to hear what you make of this design Dave.

https://boeses-vinyl.de/mehr-zur-lepetit-nach-jean-hiraga/
Click to expand...
Well here goes noting! I ordered the parts yesterday. I am probably dreaming that I will get this done during Christmas (3 teenagers at home) but I will get started. This is all supposed to be leisure-time fun eh? My favourite saying of my grandad usually came in the middle of a tough job. He would call a break and say ''We shouldn't make a curse of it''.
 
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#54
depending on music choice, volume levels, distance to speakers, it is really up to wik if money/time was worth the pleasure from it.
It may take some time to get used to its strength and weaknesses, then play to them.

Even with my detail freak and midbass obsession, yoy yo ma / 80's rock / 80's hip hop / 3 days grace / puddle of mud / local jazz station.......

Full range drivers (and 6db time/phase aligned speakers) hold a special place in my heart.

I like the box, but I believe a big boxes (sealed bigger than .577) may have less spring force allowing the driver to track front to back due to similar pressure front vs back cone motion. I may be wrong...................

I know I liked my 8" pioneed b20 in its 1' deep x 2' wide x 3' tall (no stuffing) better than same driver in a .707 with sand double walls.
 
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#55
  • The drivers has a Vas of 7 L so a 30 L box will act just sligtly smaller to the driver than a 300 L box.
  • Having a large diameter port is good for a high output woofer but for a 4" driver with a stroke of 1mm or less?
  • Why have the partial double panel on the outside with a thick diffracting edge?
  • I would like to see boxes with the same tuning frequency as the orignal but 7, 15, 30, 60,120 L and see the difference.
 
#56
DrBoar said:
  • The drivers has a Vas of 7 L so a 30 L box will act just sligtly smaller to the driver than a 300 L box.
  • Having a large diameter port is good for a high output woofer but for a 4" driver with a stroke of 1mm or less?
  • Why have the partial double panel on the outside with a thick diffracting edge?
  • I would like to see boxes with the same tuning frequency as the orignal but 7, 15, 30, 60,120 L and see the difference.
Click to expand...
Actually max excursion of the original sigma driver is something like 0.35 mm 😀 (that is where the voicecoil is still within optimal range).

As for square belly, the l'audiophille article states only extra stiffness (i asume for the port as well). The article emphasizes absolute rigidity and solid seal a couple of times. I am mad also reported he lost a good amount of bass output with rubber seals in the back, compared to a good rigid seal.

Yeah, its gaining traction for sure. Its a curious design by a well respected designer, but if you try searching through japanese diy pages, you find this approach quite often and sigma was a bit of a darling among japanese hobbyists it seems.
 
#58
Its basically a box that is too big.
for a driver that is too small
with a pointless second front panel causing diffraction.
with a port that wont do anything.
but cause enough leakage to instantly unload the driver.

For the most part 30 liters is enough space
for countless 6 to 6.5" drivers

which would actually have bass.
cost less, have more power handling
more sensitivity
and be at a fraction of the price.

you could literally buy a dirt cheap already built 2 way like
a Dayton B-652 for 38 dollars
and the sound quality would be 3x greater.

Im all for DIY and things in life
which inspire us.
It is a lovely thing.
But this is not a very good approach
 
#59
If you want bass from FF125wk, look at the Frugel-Horn Mk3.

To support those kinds of volumes with that driver it needs to be a horn or TL. The oversize, tuned low box is the kind of alignment that spawns the 1-note BR theme.

https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/frugel-horn-mk3.172605/

We built this one, an ML-TL with the same alignment as the Pensils. It seems i never quite finished the plan and release it. So this is its premiere.

http://wodendesign.com/downloads/LStylo125-plan-101222.pdf

dave
 
#60
White Dragon & dave, that indeed seems so, doesn't it. On the other hand, its also sort of hard to ignore that this is comming from a group of legendary designers, who had very good ears, tried and tested it and had no pony in the sales race. Other people who heard it also seem to love it.

I'm wondering where/if there's a catch. Perhaps an outdated design by now or maybe just a case of preference? Maybe the group found something that just "clicked"..

Thats why I'd be inclined to build them as close as possible to Hiraga/l'audiophille spec, even trying to hunt down the sigma driver later on.. if nothing else, you end up with a nice piece of history.
 
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