I didn't really suggest that they should be bought at Fry's. 🙂 I was trying to suggest that you take them to the corner store to get them repaired, like a local Fry's.
I may or may not agree with some of your views, but this is one area where I agree 100%. It's stunning to see how weak are some excellent, fairly expensive products from the robustness and reliability point of view. And the more "boutique" or "elite" the brand is, the more likely it is to have poor engineering in order to cater to audiophile fads. One of the things which gets my goat is a power amp without any output short circuit protection, all in the interests of "cleaner sound", apparently. Ditto, no HF filter in the amp input, allowing RF to go straight into the amp. No overvoltage clamping circuit in the input... the list goes on.
And most of the examples of bad engg which I've seen are in the power amp circuits. Signal level electronics seem to get away with just poorer sound quality, without impacting reliability that much.
What are your suggestions about amps, then? I continue to believe it's not worth it switching from something like a Hegel H80 to a Marantz PM14 + DAC and pay twice the price just for better repair options. Am sorry that you may disagree.
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Hi tcpip,
I'm not suggesting that she should buy the Marantz. I am saying that she should definitely audition them. Should she hear something in the Marantz she feels is worthwhile, then she should buy them - with your blessing. The same holds true if she hears and likes a Parasound or any other top brand. McIntosh also comes to mind.
Price is a very relative thing. Let's look at it a different way. The better engineered products, on average, do not fail nearly as often as products where money was spared in the design. Marantz equipment rarely fails, same for Parasound and McIntosh. Those figures are impressive when you consider how many pieces these companies sell per year. However, if you take your broken product to the wrong place, you may as well replace it right off. Now, if service information isn't forthcoming because the company isn't around anymore and didn't have a good service network, you have an orphan. Some of the best techs I know will only look at these when they are up for a challenge. I know I'm probably going to lose money fixing an orphan (got to stop doing that!). The other techs also agree. Our best advice is to avoid products that do not have good distribution and service networks, unless they give you at least a schematic when you buy the equipment. There was a time when this practice was common. Marantz did this for years.
I'm only trying to look out for your friend. All you can do is play the averages when committing money towards anything. Wishful thinking is very nice, but I make my living off of people who bought that way. I'd rather service the good 30 + year old equipment that I'm doing now as a staple.
Interesting fact. Revox tested each and every piece sold in Canada on a service bench, and a real good technician. We still saw a couple break down a year, and I'm in the Toronto area. Lot's sold in that area. So some will break no matter what you do to prevent it. Just make sure you have access to technical information and service people when that happens. If you don't, no matter how new it might be, just buy another one. Hopefully something made better the next time around.
Depending on what is purchased, spending 2X that amount can be the less expensive route.
Best, Chris
I'm not suggesting that she should buy the Marantz. I am saying that she should definitely audition them. Should she hear something in the Marantz she feels is worthwhile, then she should buy them - with your blessing. The same holds true if she hears and likes a Parasound or any other top brand. McIntosh also comes to mind.
Price is a very relative thing. Let's look at it a different way. The better engineered products, on average, do not fail nearly as often as products where money was spared in the design. Marantz equipment rarely fails, same for Parasound and McIntosh. Those figures are impressive when you consider how many pieces these companies sell per year. However, if you take your broken product to the wrong place, you may as well replace it right off. Now, if service information isn't forthcoming because the company isn't around anymore and didn't have a good service network, you have an orphan. Some of the best techs I know will only look at these when they are up for a challenge. I know I'm probably going to lose money fixing an orphan (got to stop doing that!). The other techs also agree. Our best advice is to avoid products that do not have good distribution and service networks, unless they give you at least a schematic when you buy the equipment. There was a time when this practice was common. Marantz did this for years.
I'm only trying to look out for your friend. All you can do is play the averages when committing money towards anything. Wishful thinking is very nice, but I make my living off of people who bought that way. I'd rather service the good 30 + year old equipment that I'm doing now as a staple.
Interesting fact. Revox tested each and every piece sold in Canada on a service bench, and a real good technician. We still saw a couple break down a year, and I'm in the Toronto area. Lot's sold in that area. So some will break no matter what you do to prevent it. Just make sure you have access to technical information and service people when that happens. If you don't, no matter how new it might be, just buy another one. Hopefully something made better the next time around.
Depending on what is purchased, spending 2X that amount can be the less expensive route.
Best, Chris
Also, I have heard that Hagel amp through a set of Bryston Model T's. Sounded very good, very rich and weighty sound. More musical than analytical although it could have been the speakers. I did notice the amp was pushed pretty hard at a moderate volume but this was in a big room, also those Bryston speakers are not real efficient...
A store local to me near Seattle carried Hagel but they went out of business about 6 months ago. I am sure thee are more dealers in the US than just one, although they may not be authorized dealers. Nice amps for sure.
Also, a lot of the rotel amps are class d...I have nothing against class d (except the fact that a tripath amp once destroyed a focal woofer of mine) but it's good to know what you are buying.
A store local to me near Seattle carried Hagel but they went out of business about 6 months ago. I am sure thee are more dealers in the US than just one, although they may not be authorized dealers. Nice amps for sure.
Also, a lot of the rotel amps are class d...I have nothing against class d (except the fact that a tripath amp once destroyed a focal woofer of mine) but it's good to know what you are buying.
No one really said there's only one dealer in the US 🙂
http://www.hegel.com/dealers/usa
There's no dealer in Oregon, that's all.
http://www.hegel.com/dealers/usa
There's no dealer in Oregon, that's all.
If it was mine, I'd seriously look at something like a QSC RMX1850HD.
Something like that will have vanishingly low distortion, headroom forever, and won't care what impedance it sees. It will just drive it. No need for subjective terms or trying to make sure you get an amp that'll drive below 3ohm or whatever, it'll just work.
Combine with a good pre-amp that has all the features needed, job done.
I'd seriously consider some kind of EQ, too. I know it's not the "purist" approach, but rooms do terrible things at low-frequencies. I have a narrow-band spike at 70Hz (floor-to-ceiling, half-wave resonance) and some other problems here that can be smoothed out. Much much better when that's done. I expect there's someone local that can go around and set up something like that.
Chris
Something like that will have vanishingly low distortion, headroom forever, and won't care what impedance it sees. It will just drive it. No need for subjective terms or trying to make sure you get an amp that'll drive below 3ohm or whatever, it'll just work.
Combine with a good pre-amp that has all the features needed, job done.
I'd seriously consider some kind of EQ, too. I know it's not the "purist" approach, but rooms do terrible things at low-frequencies. I have a narrow-band spike at 70Hz (floor-to-ceiling, half-wave resonance) and some other problems here that can be smoothed out. Much much better when that's done. I expect there's someone local that can go around and set up something like that.
Chris
Had a look at the Rasptouch TC , certainly seems to offer what's required and specs ( on paper at least ) look good .
However this type of ' new fangled ' front end is not an area that i know much about so i wouldn't feel comfortable recommending anything i have no experience or knowledge of , I'm sure there are others more able to offer advice on this part of the system than me .
I still say Hegel for the amp though, although i do see Anatechs point and i have heard B &W 's driven by McIntosh amp's that sounded very good , no idea what model though unfortunately.
However this type of ' new fangled ' front end is not an area that i know much about so i wouldn't feel comfortable recommending anything i have no experience or knowledge of , I'm sure there are others more able to offer advice on this part of the system than me .
I still say Hegel for the amp though, although i do see Anatechs point and i have heard B &W 's driven by McIntosh amp's that sounded very good , no idea what model though unfortunately.
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Chris661, don't know about the QSC amp, but I agree that some room correction would be a huge leap in quality. Any suggestions for a room correction appliance which (i) has digital audio ins and outs, and (ii) has everything needed, including calibration mic, to do room correction for a newbie user?
I thought it might be a bit steep. For bought HiFis I usually go by my rule of thumb of spending the budget: 50% on speakers, 50% on everything else.
On the other end of cost spectrum would be Emotiva with the PT100 (pre, dac, tuner in one) and the A300 power amp (150Wrms 8Ω) which would come to $700.
Not sure there is anything in between Emotiva and Benchmark prices which would be a significant upgrade. Problem is Emotiva is mail order only as far as I know.
https://emotiva.com/
I use a Behringer DEQ2496. You can buy the mic separately. Digital in and out, easy to use interface, tons of settings. The auto EQ is OK, better if you know how to use it. Used right, it can be a huge improvement.
That rule of 50% on speakers, 50% on rest is a good one. Based on that, I'd suggested to my friend to keep aside $5k for speakers. She's now blown a hole in her budget by choosing a pair costing $9000, so she now needs to go very careful on the rest of her blown budget. 🙂
But, all told, we're walking the knife-edge ok right now. She said she can find $2k for the amp, so the Hegel fits in there, and she saves money for a DAC.
What's left is a media player, a rack and passives. I think, with a bit of stretch, my friend will put everything together. Cables will be strictly Blue Jeans Cables; that should help keep the cable budget to sane figures. 😀
Just saw your signature, clicked on it, read about Planet-10, and donated. Thanks for putting the message out, man.
Hi tcpip,
That budget is hers to deal with, or blow through. I'm only saying that she is the only one who can make those decisions. From what I'm reading, I would say she has decided to spend more on the system, and the only way to make those speakers really sing is to use an amplifier and source in the same quality ranking. Besides, she has her ears with a brain between them. Only she can decide what is good enough or not. I would suggest that a Rotel is a non-starter though. The other brands I suggested will trounce them, and there are many more better than a Rotel. One brand she won't be happy with would be a Sony (All class D as well, and poor support on top of that).
Whatever you do, make sure she doesn't undersell herself or she will lose money by having lost performance the speakers are capable of. That would be a crying shame really.
-Chris
That budget is hers to deal with, or blow through. I'm only saying that she is the only one who can make those decisions. From what I'm reading, I would say she has decided to spend more on the system, and the only way to make those speakers really sing is to use an amplifier and source in the same quality ranking. Besides, she has her ears with a brain between them. Only she can decide what is good enough or not. I would suggest that a Rotel is a non-starter though. The other brands I suggested will trounce them, and there are many more better than a Rotel. One brand she won't be happy with would be a Sony (All class D as well, and poor support on top of that).
Whatever you do, make sure she doesn't undersell herself or she will lose money by having lost performance the speakers are capable of. That would be a crying shame really.
-Chris
One more chapter is in the works, in this story. My friend, who would rather buy from a local store than order online, has been vigorously checking out stocks at the local Portland hifi stores. After looking through half a dozen amps which all turned out to be either multi-channel or plain power amps, she finally found this one:
Echo Audio | Parasound Halo Integrated
I was all thrilled and all that -- I mean, a Parasound integrated with a built-in high-end DAC, what's there not to like?
So, as of now, it may be the Hegel H80 or this Parasound. 🙂 I don't know which way the decision will fall, but I'm sure she'll get a sensible amp.
Echo Audio | Parasound Halo Integrated
I was all thrilled and all that -- I mean, a Parasound integrated with a built-in high-end DAC, what's there not to like?
So, as of now, it may be the Hegel H80 or this Parasound. 🙂 I don't know which way the decision will fall, but I'm sure she'll get a sensible amp.
Hi tcpip,
I agree. Now she can choose freely and hopefully, the decision will be based on sound (and weight! 🙂 ). Parasound has John Curl's involvement. I do give John a hard time now and again, but you have to respect that he has a hand in a very reliable product with many years of a proved performance level (a good one).
-Chris
I agree. Now she can choose freely and hopefully, the decision will be based on sound (and weight! 🙂 ). Parasound has John Curl's involvement. I do give John a hard time now and again, but you have to respect that he has a hand in a very reliable product with many years of a proved performance level (a good one).
-Chris
Just a quick driveby to this thread - and apologies for my sloth in not having read all 20 pages for clues to the answer,- but has the lady in question yet had chance to hear any of the suggested gear in whatever bricks and mortar stores might yet still reside within a comfortable drive, or in even better, in a home that resembles her own space?
If aesthetics and/or budget seem to be an impediment, sometimes just settling back, closing your eyes and getting enveloped in the system can surmount those assumed barriers.
Hell, something might be found at well below what is deemed appropriate cost - OK, that's the DIY speaker builder thinking out loud.
If aesthetics and/or budget seem to be an impediment, sometimes just settling back, closing your eyes and getting enveloped in the system can surmount those assumed barriers.
Hell, something might be found at well below what is deemed appropriate cost - OK, that's the DIY speaker builder thinking out loud.
Yes, she's chosen a pair of speakers and an amp. It's not clear whether she's allowed herself to be enveloped by the experience yet. 😀
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