Re: sorry for late replies
I just though the 180ms MLS window seemd large for measurement in a small room. I happend to come across some TB drivers to test, each had some uniqueness. In a small room it takes some fumbling to get even an 18ms MLS window.
salas said:
I just though the 180ms MLS window seemd large for measurement in a small room. I happend to come across some TB drivers to test, each had some uniqueness. In a small room it takes some fumbling to get even an 18ms MLS window.
windows
I used a long window so to see what happens with real in room energy distribution. I use 6ms in Soundeasy or WinMLS to see about primary on axis sound initially. I also evaluate always with RTA to get the actual LF room gain. Else than a dB or so more energy in 1 to 3k area, small or wide windows dont change results above 300 Hz even in small rooms as my experimental data consistently proves.
I used a long window so to see what happens with real in room energy distribution. I use 6ms in Soundeasy or WinMLS to see about primary on axis sound initially. I also evaluate always with RTA to get the actual LF room gain. Else than a dB or so more energy in 1 to 3k area, small or wide windows dont change results above 300 Hz even in small rooms as my experimental data consistently proves.
Re: windows
Since you've used so many different software, what do you think 'are the pro's and con,s using each when applying them to speaker design and measurements?
salas said:
Since you've used so many different software, what do you think 'are the pro's and con,s using each when applying them to speaker design and measurements?
Software babble
I think that WinMLS is excellent for measurement consistency and further analysation of room acoustics. When looking for speaker - room match, its reverberation charts are invaluable to load in acoustic space simulator packages like Cara, Ease. No wonder Genelec uses WinMLS for installing in studios. Soundeasy has a very good MLS Easylab section that interfaces seamlessly with its many modules. Very dependable. No wonder many excellent DIY speakers are made with SE like Zaph's. As a speaker sim SE cant match the speed of working in LEAP, but then again SE is complete and not a part of a much more expensive suite.
I never stop double checking energy distribution with an RTA. Spectra is my favorite. RTAs are many and most are reliable though. Some even free. Only with an RTA you really see what you hear in the room you are with the power response of the speaker superimposed. I recall reading for many years HFNRR and Stereophile that in the end, the perceived balance was alaways correlating with windowed RTA averages. You will never judge the midbass energy correctly with an MLS.
My conclusion is that MLS suites are best for analysis and RTAs for evaluation. I would suggest to a professional speaker engineer to get Praxis, Leap, and an RTA. To an event designer, to get Ease, SmaartLive and L Acoustics Kudo!
I think that WinMLS is excellent for measurement consistency and further analysation of room acoustics. When looking for speaker - room match, its reverberation charts are invaluable to load in acoustic space simulator packages like Cara, Ease. No wonder Genelec uses WinMLS for installing in studios. Soundeasy has a very good MLS Easylab section that interfaces seamlessly with its many modules. Very dependable. No wonder many excellent DIY speakers are made with SE like Zaph's. As a speaker sim SE cant match the speed of working in LEAP, but then again SE is complete and not a part of a much more expensive suite.
I never stop double checking energy distribution with an RTA. Spectra is my favorite. RTAs are many and most are reliable though. Some even free. Only with an RTA you really see what you hear in the room you are with the power response of the speaker superimposed. I recall reading for many years HFNRR and Stereophile that in the end, the perceived balance was alaways correlating with windowed RTA averages. You will never judge the midbass energy correctly with an MLS.
My conclusion is that MLS suites are best for analysis and RTAs for evaluation. I would suggest to a professional speaker engineer to get Praxis, Leap, and an RTA. To an event designer, to get Ease, SmaartLive and L Acoustics Kudo!
I plan to make a 6 pole switch on each box. So i can toggle between different resistors (metal oxide, 10W. I take the next resistor values:
0R47, 0R56, 0R68, 0R82, 1R and 1R2.
Please tell me if this is not a good plan.
0R47, 0R56, 0R68, 0R82, 1R and 1R2.
Please tell me if this is not a good plan.
It is a good plan. Generally the TB3 as all bipoles is going to base its tonal balance more on your room conditions than normal speakers. I suggest 70cm floor stands, and well off wall positioning. The closer you get to a wall, your resistor you may end up adjusting in less value even down to zero. If you position the TB3 on a desktop for a computer speaker you must cut 200Hz by 5dB since the desk boosts them as much there. All PC music player software have eq option, so no problem. Another equally significant factor is the tone of your system. I would use silver claded speaker cabling if with tubes for TB3. Solid core copper with solid state.
A good way to judge, is to play a big band Jazz production like a Harry James one after you have 36 hours on the TB3. Move the stands in and out off wall and change resistor settings untill you get the brass bite correct.
A good way to judge, is to play a big band Jazz production like a Harry James one after you have 36 hours on the TB3. Move the stands in and out off wall and change resistor settings untill you get the brass bite correct.
Dont forget to experiment with 0 & 0,33 positions too. Did you pick up some tweeters yet? Check out Seas alu 19mm tweeters. They have good dispersion and dome protection which are both very welcome in TB3's case.
Re: Audax tweeter
Hello wim, i just bought today a pair of TWO10L1 for 26 euro a pair by speakerenco (dutch).
They should be just like the F1 but with a metal dome or kind.
I just tried it with a closed box with 1 W3-871s and it actually gives some improvement in the high. (same filter like Salas)
oh first post 🙂
wim said:
Hello wim, i just bought today a pair of TWO10L1 for 26 euro a pair by speakerenco (dutch).
They should be just like the F1 but with a metal dome or kind.
I just tried it with a closed box with 1 W3-871s and it actually gives some improvement in the high. (same filter like Salas)
oh first post 🙂
I will try 0R and 0R33 also. I bought 2 tweeters Monacor DT 25-N.
Is it correct on the filterdrwaing that the tweeter polarity is not the same as the polarity from the woofers?
And do i place the both woofers paralel?
Thanks.
Is it correct on the filterdrwaing that the tweeter polarity is not the same as the polarity from the woofers?
And do i place the both woofers paralel?
Thanks.
I see they declare this little tweeter as 95dB sensitive!!!!!!! (Fishy I doubt it) Why you opted for +5 dB than I suggested and a vestigial horn loaded one instead of a wide dispersion one I cant think of another reason than a 'smart' salesman.
Anyway with such a tweeter use 3,3 or 4,7 or 5.6 Ohm resistors.
I did not choose this one for a special reason. I was in a shop, and this was the cheepest one with any quality. I did not know that the high sensitivety should be any problem.
Anyway, i will play with the higher resistor values as you wrote in your post.
Thanks for you information.
Anyway, i will play with the higher resistor values as you wrote in your post.
Thanks for you information.
Finaly the loudspeakers a la Salas design are ready and i connected them to my Hiraga and played a cd from Dire Streets. Well, these nice, tiny, small loudspeakers sound very , very nice to me.
At the back of each cabinet is a stepped swicht, so i can change the filters resistor in 0R22, 0R33, 0R47, 0R56, 0R and tweeter off.
I must say i do not hear any differance, so i left the switch on 0R.
I used 89 dB tweeters of good quality.
I like these tiny things a lot. Thanks Salas, for your help and your design.
I have 2 (low quality) photo's but they are to big for this forum. I will mail mthem to Salas, so he can see the clones of his design.
All by all a very nice project!
At the back of each cabinet is a stepped swicht, so i can change the filters resistor in 0R22, 0R33, 0R47, 0R56, 0R and tweeter off.
I must say i do not hear any differance, so i left the switch on 0R.
I used 89 dB tweeters of good quality.
I like these tiny things a lot. Thanks Salas, for your help and your design.
I have 2 (low quality) photo's but they are to big for this forum. I will mail mthem to Salas, so he can see the clones of his design.
All by all a very nice project!
Salas, last week my computer crashed so i can not look on my computer for your e-mailadress to send you my photo's. Can you please send me a mail, so i can mail the photo's to you? Thanks.
Thanks for sending me the pics. I am happy that you find TB3 nice, and Hiraga worthy 🙂
I resized the pics and I am posting them here for all to see your speakers. I guess that the better tweeters enhance the clone.
Maybe they are silkier than the cheap ones on the original, and being just a bit less sensitive aswell you dont need to play with resistors as you have found.
After your speakers get more broken in and you have listened to more music, we will be happy to know details about your sonic impressions. Your system is revealing and it will be interesting to know more from your tests.
Cheers
Salas
I resized the pics and I am posting them here for all to see your speakers. I guess that the better tweeters enhance the clone.
Maybe they are silkier than the cheap ones on the original, and being just a bit less sensitive aswell you dont need to play with resistors as you have found.
After your speakers get more broken in and you have listened to more music, we will be happy to know details about your sonic impressions. Your system is revealing and it will be interesting to know more from your tests.
Cheers
Salas
Attachments
salas, looks like you designed some very nice speakers!
can you please tell me what you think the minimal distance to the rear wall should be?
thanks, LC
can you please tell me what you think the minimal distance to the rear wall should be?
thanks, LC
- Status
- Not open for further replies.