Hi Gopies,
What Paudio drivers? Are those BM15CX38 coaxials? Those will be ideal for the fullsized Autograph. Please see my other thread :
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=74241&perpage=25&highlight=&pagenumber=1
and surtout Richard's speakers:
http://users.on.net/~richard.norrish/Autograph/
His photos are excellent!
Please note that those are corner speakers; I use them on a 5 meter wide wall (5m x 7m room). I think a 4 meter wall will be OK, too.
Hi Peterbrorsson,
Thanks for your kind words.
Well, the enclosure is unfinished and quick and dirthy is just that, Q&D!
When one makes a couple of these enclosures one gets a certain feelling about them that makes the task easier.
As I said, my first plan was to make a "fridge-like" enclosure for a ANsuper10 but now I just want to see how much can be obtained with a tinny 4.5" driver and a wider mouth, like the "Kleinhorn".
Cheers,
M
What Paudio drivers? Are those BM15CX38 coaxials? Those will be ideal for the fullsized Autograph. Please see my other thread :
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=74241&perpage=25&highlight=&pagenumber=1
and surtout Richard's speakers:
http://users.on.net/~richard.norrish/Autograph/
His photos are excellent!
Please note that those are corner speakers; I use them on a 5 meter wide wall (5m x 7m room). I think a 4 meter wall will be OK, too.
Hi Peterbrorsson,
Thanks for your kind words.
Well, the enclosure is unfinished and quick and dirthy is just that, Q&D!
When one makes a couple of these enclosures one gets a certain feelling about them that makes the task easier.
As I said, my first plan was to make a "fridge-like" enclosure for a ANsuper10 but now I just want to see how much can be obtained with a tinny 4.5" driver and a wider mouth, like the "Kleinhorn".
Cheers,
M
paudio
Hi
I use the BM 15cx38
I currently have them in an OB design, and have just tried 2nd order passive XO at 1250hz. This has certainly improved the bass component, but the top end is irritating still.
My aim is to have the GRF Autographs, but not sure if these speaker would work in that enclosure, and if it would, how much modification of the horn design would be needed. I am not that familiar with horn designs and modifications as yet (hopefully one day soon).
I think, not sure where I saw, but a ribbon tweeter to take over from 10kHz would work with this driver. In some ways, like the super tweeter that Tannoy currently make.
Anyway, interested in your thoughts.
I am aiming for the corner Autograph GRF's.
Your thread is simply inspiring and have read with enjoyment. keep up the great work
best wishes
John:
Hi
I use the BM 15cx38
I currently have them in an OB design, and have just tried 2nd order passive XO at 1250hz. This has certainly improved the bass component, but the top end is irritating still.
My aim is to have the GRF Autographs, but not sure if these speaker would work in that enclosure, and if it would, how much modification of the horn design would be needed. I am not that familiar with horn designs and modifications as yet (hopefully one day soon).
I think, not sure where I saw, but a ribbon tweeter to take over from 10kHz would work with this driver. In some ways, like the super tweeter that Tannoy currently make.
Anyway, interested in your thoughts.
I am aiming for the corner Autograph GRF's.
Your thread is simply inspiring and have read with enjoyment. keep up the great work
best wishes
John:
Hi John,
Some call them "GRF Autograph", some simply "Autograph" (+/-140cm tall) to avoid bringing confusion with the GRF, square or corner. At least that is what I retained...
I think your coaxial will work very well on the Autograph enclosure. In fact, I am tempted to make another pair with them
Look at the frequency response and you will understand. I use a Beyma 15KX (?), wich is also a "pro" coaxial, without trouble...BUT, the problem is that the drivers' sensitivities and the own enclosures' frequency reinforcement make the final frequency response not very predictable. What that this means? IMHO, if you are not very good with passive crossovers you better do what I did and go with active biamping. That way you can achieve flater response. I asume that you have "good corners".
Well, the big Autograph has certainly very good bass (on Richard Norris' site it is very well described) but I can't understand what do you mean by irritating top end...These drivers are very sensitive and can take a good amount of power...would it be the problem elsewhere on the chain?
Or, your OB is so bass shy that you reach high SPL with the tweeter?
My Beyma has -3dB at 17 Khz and i don't feel like I miss something (again, active system)...and I listen a lot of violin...anyway, if you miss top end you can allways make a simple first order passive filter for a super-tweeter, I imagine...
I think your tweeter can handle 1Khz with a good filter, like 18dB/oct, active...
About horn modification: the full-sized Autograph placed at the corners will not need any mod at all!
Thank for your last words. I thought no body carred, since i'm almost the only poster here
Cheers,
M
Some call them "GRF Autograph", some simply "Autograph" (+/-140cm tall) to avoid bringing confusion with the GRF, square or corner. At least that is what I retained...
I think your coaxial will work very well on the Autograph enclosure. In fact, I am tempted to make another pair with them
Look at the frequency response and you will understand. I use a Beyma 15KX (?), wich is also a "pro" coaxial, without trouble...BUT, the problem is that the drivers' sensitivities and the own enclosures' frequency reinforcement make the final frequency response not very predictable. What that this means? IMHO, if you are not very good with passive crossovers you better do what I did and go with active biamping. That way you can achieve flater response. I asume that you have "good corners".
Well, the big Autograph has certainly very good bass (on Richard Norris' site it is very well described) but I can't understand what do you mean by irritating top end...These drivers are very sensitive and can take a good amount of power...would it be the problem elsewhere on the chain?
Or, your OB is so bass shy that you reach high SPL with the tweeter?
My Beyma has -3dB at 17 Khz and i don't feel like I miss something (again, active system)...and I listen a lot of violin...anyway, if you miss top end you can allways make a simple first order passive filter for a super-tweeter, I imagine...
I think your tweeter can handle 1Khz with a good filter, like 18dB/oct, active...
About horn modification: the full-sized Autograph placed at the corners will not need any mod at all!
Thank for your last words. I thought no body carred, since i'm almost the only poster here
Cheers,
M
Re Paudio driver
Maxlorenz
I am interested to read that you would favour using the Paudio 15" driver in the autograph. I have the BM-15CX38, and assume that is the one you are referring to.
With this driver, would it still need a front horn on the autograph?
Would the baffle board/area where the speaker sits in need to be modified at all?
thanx for your comments
best wishes
John
Maxlorenz
I am interested to read that you would favour using the Paudio 15" driver in the autograph. I have the BM-15CX38, and assume that is the one you are referring to.
With this driver, would it still need a front horn on the autograph?
Would the baffle board/area where the speaker sits in need to be modified at all?
thanx for your comments
best wishes
John
Hi Zen Mod
I know you are there. Now I miss Scott (don't get jealous, the rest of you)
Hi John,
Maybe we should talk about the full-sized Autograph in the other thread?
I found your P-Audio very attractive, both from the looks (regrettably the magnets are hidden by the enclosure ) and from the specs.
The Autograph is a front and rear horn loaded design: the sound gets coherent and fullbodied. Believe me, if you will take the trouble to build a Tannoy horn, make the BIG Autograph and you will not regret it (again, if you solve the filter thing (passive v/s active) AND you have the right room).
Please take the time to read the opinions on Richard's site:
Sorry for the long quote but I think they are marvelously written...
Welly, welly, well...I am, at last, chez moi and will mod/complete my last creation soon.
Bye,
M
I know you are there. Now I miss Scott
(don't get jealous, the rest of you)Hi John,
Maybe we should talk about the full-sized Autograph in the other thread?
I found your P-Audio very attractive, both from the looks (regrettably the magnets are hidden by the enclosure
) and from the specs.The Autograph is a front and rear horn loaded design: the sound gets coherent and fullbodied. Believe me, if you will take the trouble to build a Tannoy horn, make the BIG Autograph and you will not regret it (again, if you solve the filter thing (passive v/s active) AND you have the right room).
Please take the time to read the opinions on Richard's site:
Sorry for the long quote but I think they are marvelously written...
Welly, welly, well...I am, at last, chez moi and will mod/complete my last creation soon.
Bye,
M
It seems the southern hemisphere makes reckless/courageous DIYers
I offer my limited experience to help you. When you get to the front horn you surelly will regret taking the plunge...
Cheers
M
PS: wife approuval: what!? do you ask them out there???
(Oh! that's one the bad thing of the Aquarius age)
Anyway, here's what I would do:
1) mark on the floor how little space they will take on the corners. I bet it's less than your present speakers, wich surelly are far away from the rear wall.
2) show her a photo of the Westminster from Tannoy's site and remark how nice is the old fashioned fourniture style. Promise that yours will look comparable
Hi John,
I'm not familiar with every wood designation (not easy translated).
The best wood we can have here for the enclosures is the marine plywood (most expensive also).
Good looking and hard. Good for all the project, specially for the outside.
Here we can get the immediate lower quality plywood, wich has only one good looking surface (the other is rather uggly) but has comparable strength. That way you can save some money on internals.
The internal reinforcements are esential. Actually they were the hardest part of my built. I used solid wood (Laurel/bay tree) but I imagine sand can be used to fill the compartments...or a mixture of glue and sawdust, wich would expensive but fast an easy.
Now, I would strongly suggest that you make first an essay with MDF for the front horn, as it is very difficult to get optimal. That way you could realize how the angles go, on a cheap manner.
Cheers,
M
I'm not familiar with every wood designation (not easy translated).
The best wood we can have here for the enclosures is the marine plywood (most expensive also).
Good looking and hard. Good for all the project, specially for the outside.
Here we can get the immediate lower quality plywood, wich has only one good looking surface (the other is rather uggly) but has comparable strength. That way you can save some money on internals.
The internal reinforcements are esential. Actually they were the hardest part of my built. I used solid wood (Laurel/bay tree) but I imagine sand can be used to fill the compartments...or a mixture of glue and sawdust, wich would expensive but fast an easy.
Now, I would strongly suggest that you make first an essay with MDF for the front horn, as it is very difficult to get optimal. That way you could realize how the angles go, on a cheap manner.
Cheers,
M
a little help needed...plans
Hallo
me not french but living here I am reading the thread and ..it is pure fun. Finally a REAL speaker rebirth that will not be bass shy. Please Dear Max do you have plans and could you mail me something ?? I am crazy to build them. MDF, Plywood or solid wood glued together what will be the best. ??
You have created pieces of art !!
One crazy question , do you still use the Beyma ??
Hallo
me not french but living here I am reading the thread and ..it is pure fun. Finally a REAL speaker rebirth that will not be bass shy. Please Dear Max do you have plans and could you mail me something ?? I am crazy to build them. MDF, Plywood or solid wood glued together what will be the best. ??
You have created pieces of art !!
One crazy question , do you still use the Beyma ??
Modded front and rear horn enclosures "refrigerator": update.
Due to the good sound I am hearing with the front horns in place (even for the tinny, low quality drivers) I will make the following mod to the final expansion of the rear horn:
At mid-way from the rear, I will cut the lateral panel and make a 90º wide mouth, to match the front horn's angle. That way I think it will sound less congested.
Now, anybody can recommend good 4.5" or 5" full-rangers?
Appart that, I have some room for increasing compresion chamber.
I will try to get AutoCAD and make the diagram of them to be better appreciated, to discuss mods and maybe plot response graphs
Bye,
M
PS: anyone who desires discussing the BIG Autograph, please post on the proper thread:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=74241&highlight=
Due to the good sound I am hearing with the front horns in place (even for the tinny, low quality drivers) I will make the following mod to the final expansion of the rear horn:
At mid-way from the rear, I will cut the lateral panel and make a 90º wide mouth, to match the front horn's angle. That way I think it will sound less congested.
Now, anybody can recommend good 4.5" or 5" full-rangers?
Appart that, I have some room for increasing compresion chamber.
I will try to get AutoCAD and make the diagram of them to be better appreciated, to discuss mods and maybe plot response graphs
Bye,
M
PS: anyone who desires discussing the BIG Autograph, please post on the proper thread:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=74241&highlight=
update:
I finally tried the said mod to the final part of the rear horn. Now the firing angles of the front and rear horn are similar: +/-90º
As you can see, I ran out of wood
Anyway, bass is deeper and more relaxed. I'm listening mono. Historic opera recordings
The sad part is that the driver is only about 45cm high. It can be easilly put higher, making a little mod to first part of rear horn.
If you, dear full-ranger, have a beloved 4.5" or 5" driver, you should consider this enclosure. It is not difficult to build.
I got AutoCAD now. I have to learn how to use it
Measures for the rear horn:
(from memory)
Throat : 11cm *12cm.
Lentgh : +/-2.5m
Mouth : 70cm *90cm.
Now I think a 6.5" driver or a 8"driver version could be wonderfull.
I hope you like my prototype
Cheers,
M
I finally tried the said mod to the final part of the rear horn. Now the firing angles of the front and rear horn are similar: +/-90º
As you can see, I ran out of wood
Anyway, bass is deeper and more relaxed. I'm listening mono. Historic opera recordings
The sad part is that the driver is only about 45cm high. It can be easilly put higher, making a little mod to first part of rear horn.
If you, dear full-ranger, have a beloved 4.5" or 5" driver, you should consider this enclosure. It is not difficult to build.
I got AutoCAD now. I have to learn how to use it
Measures for the rear horn:
(from memory)
Throat : 11cm *12cm.
Lentgh : +/-2.5m
Mouth : 70cm *90cm.
Now I think a 6.5" driver or a 8"driver version could be wonderfull.
I hope you like my prototype
Cheers,
M
Hi AndrewT,
From your questions I realize that you don't get my "design philosophy"
I want to make the biggest, longest rear horn that is still nice looking and fits my space ( maybe now that I have AutoCAD I could be more scientific). For that pourpose I built this one, with a 4.5incher, to imagine what the behaviour will be with a bigger one...I feel confortable with this prototype, in relation to overall sound and bass output...it has the full-range magic and the front horn gives a wide soundstage.
Regarding bass, remember that I'm listening monoaural, the bass line from track nº1 of "Kind of Blue", for example, is fully hearable, with good armonic content and weight.
Nevertheless, here are the numbers that I calculated (after building it):
Mouth area: 0.63m2.
Equivalent mouth circunference: 2.81m.
Fc (free air): 120Hz.
Fc (one boundary: floor) : 60Hz.
Exponential Flare constant, m : 4.38m-1.
(I could verify this IF i had
logarithmic calculator, as per Marting King's papers:
m= ln (SL/SO)/ L )
I can easilly use the lateral wall for a two boundaries reinforcement-->30Hz?
Regarding delay, this speaker sounds a little slower than his partner "Spock eared" speaker, but it sounds coherent anyway. At best, this supposed delay brings a feeling of expanded ambience, you know, like if the source of the sound is not a point but a large source (wich it is) that resonates on a big room. It sounds natural to me
Regards,
M
From your questions I realize that you don't get my "design philosophy"
I want to make the biggest, longest rear horn that is still nice looking and fits my space ( maybe now that I have AutoCAD I could be more scientific). For that pourpose I built this one, with a 4.5incher, to imagine what the behaviour will be with a bigger one...I feel confortable with this prototype, in relation to overall sound and bass output...it has the full-range magic and the front horn gives a wide soundstage.
Regarding bass, remember that I'm listening monoaural, the bass line from track nº1 of "Kind of Blue", for example, is fully hearable, with good armonic content and weight.
Nevertheless, here are the numbers that I calculated (after building it):
Mouth area: 0.63m2.
Equivalent mouth circunference: 2.81m.
Fc (free air): 120Hz.
Fc (one boundary: floor) : 60Hz.
Exponential Flare constant, m : 4.38m-1.
(I could verify this IF i had
logarithmic calculator, as per Marting King's papers:
m= ln (SL/SO)/ L )
I can easilly use the lateral wall for a two boundaries reinforcement-->30Hz?
Regarding delay, this speaker sounds a little slower than his partner "Spock eared" speaker, but it sounds coherent anyway. At best, this supposed delay brings a feeling of expanded ambience, you know, like if the source of the sound is not a point but a large source (wich it is) that resonates on a big room. It sounds natural to me
Regards,
M
Hi,
I understand your philosophy fully.
I am trying to get a feel for how far one can stretch the boundaries that are not usually explored. Full credit to you for trying and judging by your comments, successfully.
Mouth frequency goes down in proportion to the square root of the increase in area or for the addition of each boundary
Your 120Hz becomes about 85Hz when floor loaded and if shunted back to the wall as well then 60Hz becomes the mouth area cut off.
If you corner load then you're down to about 43Hz. But the horn length is below a half wavelength and I suspect the response will have dropped well off by then and may be becoming very ripply, assuming the flare rate still operates at these lower frequencies.
All this from a 4.5inch driver. I bet you never dreamed of a result like that.
What you are doing must be approaching the equivalent to Pass' Kleinhorn based on a bigger driver.
I understand your philosophy fully.
I am trying to get a feel for how far one can stretch the boundaries that are not usually explored. Full credit to you for trying and judging by your comments, successfully.
Mouth frequency goes down in proportion to the square root of the increase in area or for the addition of each boundary
Your 120Hz becomes about 85Hz when floor loaded and if shunted back to the wall as well then 60Hz becomes the mouth area cut off.
If you corner load then you're down to about 43Hz. But the horn length is below a half wavelength and I suspect the response will have dropped well off by then and may be becoming very ripply, assuming the flare rate still operates at these lower frequencies.
All this from a 4.5inch driver. I bet you never dreamed of a result like that.
What you are doing must be approaching the equivalent to Pass' Kleinhorn based on a bigger driver.
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