That's why I suggest you go out and record some live Beethoven piano.
A good portable recorder like a Zoom or Tascam with a pair of RODEs is MUCH cheaper than an IEC Class 1 spl meter. It will also resolve much shorter peaks.
- 'real life' piano doesn't sound loud cos its undistorted
- 'real life' piano is louder than you think it is
- 'real life' piano has peaks much higher than the average level which is what you hear as loudness.
- piano is one of the most sensitive tests for clipping because of these facts. (It's also one of the most sensitive tests for improper dither but that's another story.)
- a good piano recording played at the correct level may require more than 500W/channel with domestic speakers in a domestic environment.
If you have never tried to record Beethoven, this will all sound like BS.
And good performing audio. I've have done some experiments using very, very ordinary recording devices on my systems playing well - I don't have access to good measuring gear at the moment - and the biggest problem is overloading the recording circuits: the AGC and/or mic is overwhelmed, and so get lot of cracking and other nasty sounds. So, have to back off into other rooms, or stick some acoustic attenuator over the mic ...
The term I use is "intense" - correctly rendered sound, as for piano, is very intense, subjectively; which of course most systems don't do, they just sound "loud" trying to recreate the equivalent SPLs, which means incorrect sound.
The levels vary greatly with distance, unless we talk levels with distance, it is BS.
Lots of piano recordings I see are done right inside the piano or beside it. Some recordings are done further away up to 10 meters there is a big difference in what is measured and heard at these distances.
When we considered what is necessary for accurate playback, we also need to understand what spectrum range the loudest transients occur, because we are now talking about peak output, and the limiting factors are multiple.
I make ALL my recordings with the mike where I would like to sit.
MY recorded levels are exactly what I want to reproduce at home. It's MY recordings that need more than 2x500W.
Most commercial classical piano recordings, have compression & limiting .. sometimes very obvious.
In the old days, tape saturation would round off peaks. Today, it is possible to capture these faithfully.
Why don't you record something and see for yourself?
But not everyone is interested in faithful reproduction. 🙁
Today, practically ALL pop has virtually no dynamic range. Just look at the latest hit on your DAW.
(There are 2 other cases encountered in 'real life' music recording that will stress the limits of 16b technology but that would be even more off topic.)
Last edited:
So how far away from the paino are we talking about? What size room? In what locations in a room are you and the piano? What kind of room recording are we talking about. Room acoustics also effect the levels you record. Room acoustics influence the recording as much as the playback.
Different aspects of different instruments are influenced by different nonlinear characteristics in a playback system. I do not believe that pure wattage is the key issue bacause if you listen at lower levels, it should just give you the perception that you are further away.
Different aspects of different instruments are influenced by different nonlinear characteristics in a playback system. I do not believe that pure wattage is the key issue bacause if you listen at lower levels, it should just give you the perception that you are further away.
Last edited:
I have 2 of the performance recordings LPs of James Boyk recorded at Caltech. The sleeve notes suggest no limiting, so I will spin those at the weekend. I may have to get this one as well.. Beethoven's "Pathétique", Bagatelles (LP) - Performance Recordings®
Exactly right - changing the volume should not alter the characteristics of the sound, it's equivalent to physically moving further away from the event. I did an experiment, posted in my blog, where I recorded a piano recording being played back at various volume levels, the latter being changed by remote during the recording. The recording device is very, very basic - and severe breakup and clipping of the sound occurs at higher levels because the recorder can't handle it - yet the sound tonality stays fairly constant.
They are, but that is the only uncompressed Piano recordings I have in my collection. I'll do some dynamic range checks on the digital piano I have over the weekend, but suspect they will be disappointing. Current fave is the Liszt transcriptions of the beethoven symphonies.
And if you like piano I would steer clear of the hyperion website. They have spent the last 10 years recording pieces that no one else has done!
And if you like piano I would steer clear of the hyperion website. They have spent the last 10 years recording pieces that no one else has done!
No.
With a good piano recording, there is only ONE volume level that sounds right. If its too soft, it doesn't sound further away. It sounds the wrong size.[*] Good recording engineers can set this playback level to better than 1dB well after the event.
Many of the comments here tell me that few, if any, of you have actually tried recording a live instrument. Why don't you try it for yourself with simple mike arrangements? Your views of 'realistic' levels and other stuff will certainly change.
Unlike the previous Millenium, you can now do this inexpensively with equal quality to the big companies.
[*]Peter Walker of QUAD said this in the 70's. John Atkinson (HFN&RR and Stereophile) queried this .. but is now a firm believer as he now produces the odd recording himself.
Last edited:
I agree on the size. The person who got me into hifi in the 80s made his own pre-amp. Instead of volume it said 'focus' which I though was rather apt.
Sadly my room overloads at around 100dBA peak, (11ft by 12ft) so I have to accept that limitation.
Loony piano of the week Roberto Prosseda Rediscovering the Pedal Piano - Pizzicato : Pizzicato I have the recording of the Gounod (remember I told you to stay away from hyperion).
Sadly my room overloads at around 100dBA peak, (11ft by 12ft) so I have to accept that limitation.
Loony piano of the week Roberto Prosseda Rediscovering the Pedal Piano - Pizzicato : Pizzicato I have the recording of the Gounod (remember I told you to stay away from hyperion).
I agree that there is one level in a recording that sounds right, at other levels, they generally suffer from different deficiencies in the system. But this has no direct relationship with the recording. You have the same situation in photography where the right size presents the right feel. I have done live environment recording with a piano in the background, but when listening to the recording, the piano sounded a lot lowere in level compared against the people around me, and I did switch back and forth at the site of recording to make sure. The recording was done at a hotel.
It is much appreciated if you can tell us here what distance you were recording at, locations in the room, size of room, and the kind of treatment of the room. Surely if you did the recording yourself you know this.
Last edited:
The one which I used most often for DBLTs on speakers was done in Cartwright Hall, Bradford. This is a large stately home now used as a museum. An excellent venue for chamber music. About 7x11x3.5m. Lots of wood panelling and sorta vaulted ceiling
Steinway along a long wall with prototype Soundfield Mk4 about 3-5m away (front row of seats). Sony PCM-F1.
Moonlight Sonata and I'm ashamed to say I don't remember the pianist.
I have another at the same venue with a fortepiano (what Beethoven would have played) but only the first 2 movements. Also some chamber music.
My other piano recordings weren't as good, musically & sonically. Venue is critical for a good recording and, musicians will tell you, for a good performance too.
The listening room for the speaker DBLTs where these clipping levels were observed was 7.5x4.8x2.5m. Reverb time for this room at the top limit (deliberately) of the IEC recommendations for Listening Rooms. Solid brick walls.
I used a 2x200W 8R amp at home in a smaller 6.43x5.1x3m room. More damping in this room. Can't remember T60s for this room though they were measured.
I wish I still had these recordings and the means to play them. It was 30+ yrs ago.
____________________
Can you tell us a bit more about your hotel recording with piano in the background?
Especially the bit about, "listening to the recording, the piano sounded a lot lower in level compared against the people around me"
Last edited:
Would it be possible to compile a lossless compressed audio file of this recording?
or a short excerpt of the recording for "testing" our systems?
And posting it on some download site?
Oh, just read
or a short excerpt of the recording for "testing" our systems?
And posting it on some download site?
Oh, just read
I would expect lots of room gain in that kind of a performance hall. If you have the room filed with audience, then you can expect much lower SPL.
My own test recoding was done using a Sony MD device. The mics were build into a pair of ear buds for recording at the ear using electret condenser mics. This was plugged directly into the MD, and playback was done using a pair of earbuds. Recording took place in the lobby of the Hotal Royal HsinChu.
The lobby had an open cafe where some friends sat and chatted while a piano was playing about 10 meters away. The piano sound was very clear, however, when we listed to the recording right on the spot, the background noise seemed to overwhelm the piano playing, especially lobby echoes which did not seem obvious when sitting there. The amazing part is that imaging was so realistic that when listing to the recording, you could not tell if a person was really behind you or it was just the recording.
I think you will not find the piano so loud if you play it in open space. Even in a larger room.
I also asked for a live recording done in an auditorium, that is one of my references because I know where I sat during the performance, and I know where they placed the mics. Certainly the levels were not high. They also did a recoding further away using a DVR, and the mics did not clip. So what am am saying is that you are mixing room gain levels with the actual instruments when you quote the levels of recording.
Err.rrh!
This was a live concert in a large room with a large audience. Piano & chamber music concerts there sound excellent. That's why I liked recording there. The mike was in the front row. That's where I like to sit.
I had some takes of the rehearsal without audience. These sounded different as expected but in fact the actual performance had higher levels. Musicians respond to an audience.
I also had a recording of piano in the IMAX auditorium at Bradford's National Museum of Film & Photography. The IMAX spec for their auditoriums make them nearly like an anechoic chamber.
It sounds terrible. I had to sauce the final mix with loadsa artificial reverb via a Yamaha DSP100.
.. so I know a bit about room gain having designed the odd purpose built listening room.
I prefer to optimise reproduction of excellent piano recordings. To play these properly I need more than 2x500W with my 90dB/2.83V 1m speakers.
_______________
I still don't understand what you means when you say "listening to the recording, the piano sounded a lot lower in level compared against the people around me"
But I understand your pianist wasn't playing Beethoven 😉