"Jez, no put down or insult intended here at all. Were you acting as an engineer for Musical Fidelity? If so, I imagine you were taking instruction from someone. It does sound as if you are the type of person who would have commented on the short comings, so I was wondering how a situation like this develops. If you can't talk about this without identifying those responsible, or are uncomfortable, don't respond to those questions. From being in a similar position in an entirely different industry (twice actually), I can understand how high the stress can be when the company takes a direction that you strongly disagree with. That much stress can make a person ill."
No offense taken..... I ran the service department at MF before becoming chief engineer with Alchemist Products (formed from ex MF staff). I was complaining to management on a daily basis about the outlined problems (and I haven't told you about the worst excesses....) and eventually resigned and walked out of the factory there and then.
Go on, go on, go on... tell us about Sonic Frontiers
No offense taken..... I ran the service department at MF before becoming chief engineer with Alchemist Products (formed from ex MF staff). I was complaining to management on a daily basis about the outlined problems (and I haven't told you about the worst excesses....) and eventually resigned and walked out of the factory there and then.
Go on, go on, go on... tell us about Sonic Frontiers
You solved a problem I couldn’t understand for years!
I have 2 MF B200 and in fact there are 4 resistors (4 or 5 watt each) that I imagined being bleeding resistors… but it didn’t make sense. Now I understand why they are there!!!
Those resistors are for nothing (I took them off) and they used to get so hot that the pcb is black around them and the nearby regulators for the opamp power supply .
And I was impressed too by the fact that the capacitors are for 63 Volts and the rail was +-68V
But of course I can be wrong and if so, I still would like to understand what are those resistors for.
Thanks for letting us know.
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Boy, this thread really opened up my eyes! The only MF piece I've ever had and still having is A324 DAC. I don't see a vacuum tube in it, so wouldn't worry about the wire-to-heater-only thing. There was no evidence of any big resistors for the soul purpose of heating up the unit found either. However, there are two HUGE and HEAVY pieces of inductors, each about the size of one's fist, sitting inside right behind the face plate, giving the unit a balanced, hefty, massive feel, and give one the thought it might worth the price on the tag. Should I begin to worry about these two inductors are just for weight, or for a stable footing on the floor/rack? They could have put in some concrete blocks or some scrap bridge metal in the case work for the very purpose, if it was true, and lowered the price significantly couldn't they? I spent about $500 a few years ago for it, now I'm bother by the thought that half of that money went into the two pieces of weight. Someone please enlighten me.
It could be that the resistors are pre-loading the transformer keeping the rails regulation within some margin. So removing them might of been making it worse not considering the internal temp rise which is the real killer of caps. A better idea would be designing the output stage with higher idling bias and getting most of this heat out of the case. But that would take some real engineering skills.
Probably a too narrow mains line voltage spec is the real culprit I suppose. If MF specs it at all?
FWIW The price jump of 63V vs 80-100 V bulk caps is huge.
Not to mention purchasing lead time.
When I was using contract manufacturers, I was frequently called to discuss component substitution/downgrading
I have 250V mains and a high ambient, which is too good at finding these poor designs
I wouldn't stress over this if i was you
They actually do make decent choke regulated supplies, they aren't there simply to add mass but to improve the PSU itself
Heck, i really opened a can of worms when i started this thread didn't i
This sort of fact based discussion of incompetence should be more wide-spread. It might help some potential customers avoid bad companies and products, and might also encourage the manufacturers to take responsibility.
I was just lurking / digging over at head-fi and came across a thread with some details of con-man manufacturing... a very cheap Oppo disc player re-housed and sold as a $3000 Lexicon, and the $1,990 Bel Canto Ref1000 amplifier having the same internals as the $975 D-Sonic Magnum 500M!
Companies like that deserve no customers.
I was just lurking / digging over at head-fi and came across a thread with some details of con-man manufacturing... a very cheap Oppo disc player re-housed and sold as a $3000 Lexicon, and the $1,990 Bel Canto Ref1000 amplifier having the same internals as the $975 D-Sonic Magnum 500M!
Companies like that deserve no customers.
Hi infinia,
Hi Jen,
In the world of CD players, there are more complete rip-offs than I could name.
-Chris
That's exactly what I was thinking. I wondered about these for a while after I saw the first unit, and this is the conclusion I came up with. I still don't know if it's a valid idea or not. However, looking at some Counterpoint "upgrade toroids", I feel the idea has more weight. I found the no load to light load regulation is terrible with most toroids I have looked at. I could be full of do-do as well. I avoid the use of toroid transformers in preference to EI cores. Those you can cool more by interfacing the lamination stack with a heat sink, or any metal surface that will act as a heat sink for it. With a Toroid, there is no access to the core, so no way but conduction for it to lose heat energy. I don't like that idea at all.
Hi Jen,
Oh, we could tell you so many stories! I know of one over $1K CD player that actually was a Sony listing at less than $150 - with some parts .... removed! All the features that were designed in for customer convenience were blocked off by the new face plate. The headphone volume control shaft was snipped short so it would fit.
In the world of CD players, there are more complete rip-offs than I could name.
The one reason this will not ever happen is that the people who know of these things can not come out and identify these situations. This is even more true if the model in question is a current model. One thing you haven't considered is that any technical staff is bound by business ethics and even sometimes an NDA to prevent any discussions. For instance, I depend on my reputation in order to maintain business relationships in the audio industry. I know I've said more than I really should over the years, but I have never revealed enough to be damaging to the companies concerned. The same holds true for anyone else out there. Years ago I would tell customers who asked what they should buy which models performed better (for real, service history and performance). In the case of amplifiers and receivers, I recommended people not buy Yamaha products. Are they bad products? No. Do they sound good? Yes. No, the problem was that they seemed to die easily, and that situation was compounded by the fact that they didn't silk screen the part locations on the PCB, the bottom no longer came off, and the topper ... they blew from output to diff pair often enough. imagine all those unmarked resistors. We died on every warranty job and I had to make the hurting stop somehow. Out of warranty, those customers are facing a service bill far in excess of what it should be to repair the units. Yamaha stopped sending us work for a long while. You see? People who know can not win with this. There is money involved here, and you can bet that the distributors will protect their turf!
Well, you're absolutely right on that. However, it would take laws to guarantee that products are constructed with some minimal level of quality, and also some type of range for "value". Those things will not ever happen, but that is what is required. So what did we get for legislation? Lead free solder (+ other materials banned). Lead free solder does not work as well as the leaded stuff. That's a fact, and anything that is required to be reliable is exempt from the RoHS initiative. The root cause was all the consumer junk hitting the landfill. The real fix is to force products to be durable once more. Doing what they have tries to address the real issue on paper, but the real effect is even more damaging over the long term. When money is involved, never expect a reasonable outcome. Consumers now have less durable products and they are the ones paying. Like always.
-Chris
Hi jez,
I don't expect you would be comfortable with the next question, don't respond to it with an answer if this is the case. Why were these models designed as they were to begin with? As you know, it's possible to design something with good engineering that also runs hot. There is little difference in cost if the design is still on paper. I'm sure it's shortcomings were known before the first prototype was mocked up.
I can only imagine what your response was when you saw these for the first time from production.
Re: Sonic Frontiers. I can't say much about it. Many things were observations of the personalities involved, and they are long gone but the company still exists (I think). Let's just say that many actions of management were irresponsible in many ways - for years. These are reflections of the people and their own personal lives. Normal stuff like shipping product that was known not to work (yes, that is expensive) and the list goes on and on. Designs that were impossible to service (for want of an access panel), but almost everyone did that. BTW, it's the customer and service people that foot that bill. Even down to some of the designs coming from someone who was not hired to design product. His title would never include design work no matter where he worked.
Besides, there are companies that are worse that I've had direct dealings with, and many I didn't. Stupidity is all around us and there seems to be little escape.
-Chris
Good.
Ahhh, I understand.
As I would expect in that situation. You made the right decision there. Was it affecting your health at all?
I don't expect you would be comfortable with the next question, don't respond to it with an answer if this is the case. Why were these models designed as they were to begin with? As you know, it's possible to design something with good engineering that also runs hot. There is little difference in cost if the design is still on paper. I'm sure it's shortcomings were known before the first prototype was mocked up.
I can only imagine what your response was when you saw these for the first time from production.
Re: Sonic Frontiers. I can't say much about it. Many things were observations of the personalities involved, and they are long gone but the company still exists (I think). Let's just say that many actions of management were irresponsible in many ways - for years. These are reflections of the people and their own personal lives. Normal stuff like shipping product that was known not to work (yes, that is expensive) and the list goes on and on. Designs that were impossible to service (for want of an access panel), but almost everyone did that. BTW, it's the customer and service people that foot that bill. Even down to some of the designs coming from someone who was not hired to design product. His title would never include design work no matter where he worked.
Besides, there are companies that are worse that I've had direct dealings with, and many I didn't. Stupidity is all around us and there seems to be little escape.
-Chris
Out of curiosity generated by this thread I opened my MF X-A1 with a Made in England label and found it nicely and solidly built. 10,000uF/50V/rail caps -looks like common PS for both ch, Alps vol control, metal film resistors, MPSA92 all around the pre (expected opamp IC), 2xSAP15/ch Sanken Darlingtons, output inductors with a 3W(?) resistor inserted in its core, thick single-sided board, 2x 6.3A/240V (12.6A/120V -why so large???) fuses on secondaries, extruded tube chassis and thick alu front panel -overall cleanly built. So far I have not opened the external transformer box.
For the past 6 years just used its pre-amp out.
For the past 6 years just used its pre-amp out.
Companies like that, IMO, should be prosecuted for fraud.
My only experience of MF gear is reading Mark Hennessy's site about his MF A1. I am just a hobbyist, not an experienced EE, but the whole thing screamed "Poor design" right away. The pictures of how the amp itself was actually built horrified me.
I bought a demo A5.5 in Feb.'10 that was never used.
The A5.5 integrated has a widespread problem with loud transformers but MF will not respond to my questions about my amp emitting a physical buzzing sound.
I will first say that I have been very happy with the music coming out of this amp, it was very different sounding to my other amps but I just keep playing music more and more now with it and that's what it's all about. But don't get me started about the built-in usb dac sounding terrible compared to a decent outboard dac. That's for another thread.
I have an annoying buzzing sound coming out of the amp that comes and goes, at first it was very silent then after about a week of hard playing it began. It's quite loud for me as it's in my bedroom and I'm 11 feet away. When it happens in the evening I have to turn it off and I really hate that.
It doesn't always happen I could go a week or more with complete silent bliss or it happens every night for a week. Other wise it's very quiet.
It is the transformer physically making the noise. There's a couple reasons why it's making sounds. It could be a badly made transformer or the mounting & assembly is sub par and needs to be improved or both.
Either way, I have to try to isolate the existing transformer or replace it. But it does sound very nice except when it's buzzing and when I'm sleeping.
Going through my house chasing the source of the problem triggering the noise could help but MF should have designed and assembled a better amp so it won't be so effected by bad electricity. I have had many good amps in my room that do not do this, not even close.
It's a lot of money to spend on audiophile equipment that makes buzzing noise that MF won't do anything about, opposite you can say of a silent background we all strive for.
The A5.5 integrated has a widespread problem with loud transformers but MF will not respond to my questions about my amp emitting a physical buzzing sound.
I will first say that I have been very happy with the music coming out of this amp, it was very different sounding to my other amps but I just keep playing music more and more now with it and that's what it's all about. But don't get me started about the built-in usb dac sounding terrible compared to a decent outboard dac. That's for another thread.
I have an annoying buzzing sound coming out of the amp that comes and goes, at first it was very silent then after about a week of hard playing it began. It's quite loud for me as it's in my bedroom and I'm 11 feet away. When it happens in the evening I have to turn it off and I really hate that.
It doesn't always happen I could go a week or more with complete silent bliss or it happens every night for a week. Other wise it's very quiet.
It is the transformer physically making the noise. There's a couple reasons why it's making sounds. It could be a badly made transformer or the mounting & assembly is sub par and needs to be improved or both.
Either way, I have to try to isolate the existing transformer or replace it. But it does sound very nice except when it's buzzing and when I'm sleeping.
Going through my house chasing the source of the problem triggering the noise could help but MF should have designed and assembled a better amp so it won't be so effected by bad electricity. I have had many good amps in my room that do not do this, not even close.
It's a lot of money to spend on audiophile equipment that makes buzzing noise that MF won't do anything about, opposite you can say of a silent background we all strive for.
Hello
It's a bit surprising to read so much problems about Musical Fidelity.
Few years ago I've eard a Musical Fidelity Nu Vista M3 integrate amp and it was sounding very musical and with a wide and deep soundstage and very nice looking case.
Btw, anyone would have the schematic of that amp ? (seeing it would tell me why it was sounding so good)
Bye
Gaetan
It's a bit surprising to read so much problems about Musical Fidelity.
Few years ago I've eard a Musical Fidelity Nu Vista M3 integrate amp and it was sounding very musical and with a wide and deep soundstage and very nice looking case.
Btw, anyone would have the schematic of that amp ? (seeing it would tell me why it was sounding so good)
Bye
Gaetan
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Just to go off topic for one posting...
This is a common problem with a lot equipment, have a read here,
Mains DC and Transformers
it's easy to implement and might just be worth a try...
This is a common problem with a lot equipment, have a read here,
Mains DC and Transformers
it's easy to implement and might just be worth a try...
I too can recount many such tales... I was a bench repair tech, then workshop manager for a large service dept of a large company. We dealt with AV products mostly, all our audio was midi and music centre quality unfortunately...
If it were my own business I couldn't have slept at night knowing the junk that was being sold... all glue and sellotape I used to call it. I used to complain often about it, the bottom line I'm sure was that these products were available for such low cost, and with a consequent high markup, that that was all that counted in the end.
Major manufacturers often had problems too... exploding SMPS etc... all down to major design faults. Eventually a repair kit might be cobbled together by the manufacturer, sometimes consisting of 30 or more parts to replace... it was a joke.
Our company (as it changed owners) also has a "policy" of not wanting you
to repair to component level... order a new PCB instead. We were technicians... and that isn't how we went about things. When £5 could replace a handfull of electroylitics on a PSU and it would be as good as new, they wanted to spend £70 on a new PCB.
The other side of the coin was the odd small company that, although the products weren't top class, they went overboard to help with problems.
Gaetan and all
(I am refering to past MF models. I do not know what is the situation with their current models).
MF amplifiers do sound very good and they do have a very nice case.
But there are things that they should be designed and built differently for reliability reasons.
They wouldn't cost much (or anything at all), they wouldn't affect the measured specs (which are good and honest), nor the sound , nor the chassis look.
It would require just common sense.
It seems that feedback for these problems was there, but was ignored.
Why? were they idiots? Maybe.
May they didn't care? Maybe.
Were they thinking that 3-4 years of trouble free operation of an amp is enough? A new one should be purchased afterwards? And to the customers that they would complain, would they say: "You paid for the sound of a class A amplifier, but these amplifiers don't last for long. You can't expect such an amp to last for 20 years, can you?"?
Reliability is not a legal requirement for such products and will never be.
Therefore lack of build-in reliability can not be considered a fraud.
May be not even a quality issue (It would be, if reliability was addressed and specified in the design requirements).
We are dealing with it (me at least) just because we have looked inside some units and found obvious (and avoidable) flaws that do cause operational problems.
It is also that, technically minded people tend to exagerate technical issues. (It is like the doctors who are rated as the worst patients
)Best Regards
George
My comments on this subject refer to a particular model of pre-amp. The B200 is not effected in this manner so if I were you I would take a good look at what you have done there
Many of MF designs were truly innovative, interesting designs with excellent sonics (several of the best designs were actually by Tim De Paravacini). The problem lies in the cynical cost cutting for production which caused so many "built in" reliability problems which could have been avoided if they had speced better components. The management was well aware of these issues but my colleagues and I were kind of told that it was non of our business and not to rock the boat.....
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