Thanks Garry, It helps.
I will try a hugly metal box I have just to listen to if there is a difference with wood in my RF environment. If not I will stay with wood: easier for my project (SB+SUBBU inside... of course with RJ45).
About the safety: I think metal box is correct here in Europe because all the low current cunsumption devices have just two pins plug... but inside if metal box : you need plastics plugs to connect the 115/230 V both on the transformer board and on the box plug to respect normes. Ancient cd player from the 80s' do not have those but a more recent cd player have those plastic plugs inside (saw on a sony and a philips).
But a SOTA picture like we saw above from a fellow is good enough
Two pin devices are double insulated and are not DIY designs, so you need to use an earthed socket and a 3 wire connection to ANY design that has mains going into it. I do believe that double insulated designs are not allowed on DIYAudio.
Thank you Marce,
I didn't know a law exist for domestic device maid by enthusiast but just normatives rules CE for industrials.
Here before the 90s' in home dry rooms, plugs are 2 pins. House & buildings builded after has earth everywhere, even in toilett roms, transformers for electrical razor are now forbiden !
Hé Marce, I know your time is precious and you deal with 50 layers Sonar design but if you have just a little time to share when you want : we are going to a goodwilled collaborativ minds around a little utopie: making a TDA1541 core board with I2S input to fight against the expensive crap kit on EBAY.
VANOFONK & ST3UP fellows share their design and maybe oneday we will need the help of a RF specialist to check the board to avoid the worst issues. It's a little rock and roll because dreamers are fighted by non-dreamers but after all it's fanatic DIY around audio, no ?
Here I send you an indirect invitation with a symbolic goodwilled offer. If you want to give us a "coucou I follow you" you are welcome ! http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digi...any-good-tda1541a-dac-kit-86.html#post3898539
I didn't know a law exist for domestic device maid by enthusiast but just normatives rules CE for industrials.
Here before the 90s' in home dry rooms, plugs are 2 pins. House & buildings builded after has earth everywhere, even in toilett roms, transformers for electrical razor are now forbiden !
Hé Marce, I know your time is precious and you deal with 50 layers Sonar design but if you have just a little time to share when you want : we are going to a goodwilled collaborativ minds around a little utopie: making a TDA1541 core board with I2S input to fight against the expensive crap kit on EBAY.
VANOFONK & ST3UP fellows share their design and maybe oneday we will need the help of a RF specialist to check the board to avoid the worst issues. It's a little rock and roll because dreamers are fighted by non-dreamers but after all it's fanatic DIY around audio, no ?
Here I send you an indirect invitation with a symbolic goodwilled offer. If you want to give us a "coucou I follow you" you are welcome ! http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digi...any-good-tda1541a-dac-kit-86.html#post3898539
The rules on voltages and safety apply to everyone, its just that often DIYers don realise this, the problem is any fire or accident caused by equipment you have designed or made makes you liable...But Safety first should always be the rule.🙂
I am always free to help time permitting, currently I am on site doing PCBs for ANR headphones electronics (military, and not Bose) so been busy with travelling etc, but yep anything I can do just send a PM, I do occasionally pick them up when I remember.....
I am always free to help time permitting, currently I am on site doing PCBs for ANR headphones electronics (military, and not Bose) so been busy with travelling etc, but yep anything I can do just send a PM, I do occasionally pick them up when I remember.....
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An "inbetween" but safe solution is to connect the metal box to PE and leave audio GND floating. I do this the most. It is something many british DIYers complain about (in the UK literally everything is connected to PE) but it is safe and allowed in mainland Europe. Audio GND connected to PE often means trouble.
I believed it was the Rule for audio !
Just the amp with PE and only audio gnd shared via connectors to avoid a big ground loop ! Unfornatuly (for security I mean) my SS 250 W Chord amp is on a two pins plug on the wall... It's not on the wishes list to plug it on the kitchen or in the bathroom !
I surmise still a lot of two pins plug everywhere in Europe... Most of europeeans are not living in XXI century buildings !
Which distance is advised for the box between the little Muratta Power transformer and the coreboard with the DAC chip : 90° position and 10 cm wires or the closest (phoenix to phoenix connector) possible with the transformer at the opposite of the DAC chip ?
Just the amp with PE and only audio gnd shared via connectors to avoid a big ground loop ! Unfornatuly (for security I mean) my SS 250 W Chord amp is on a two pins plug on the wall... It's not on the wishes list to plug it on the kitchen or in the bathroom !
I surmise still a lot of two pins plug everywhere in Europe... Most of europeeans are not living in XXI century buildings !
Which distance is advised for the box between the little Muratta Power transformer and the coreboard with the DAC chip : 90° position and 10 cm wires or the closest (phoenix to phoenix connector) possible with the transformer at the opposite of the DAC chip ?
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I would remove the often, and replace it with always🙂
PE is there to provide a safe low impedance path in the case of a problem, in a lot of houses with RCDs it provides the detection current for the RCD to switch, hence its name protective earth.
The rules are getting more stringent and actually apply to all countries these days, the cost of upgrading the infra structure and modding all the houses is obviously a factor.
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And most of the commercial devices still have 2 pins plugs... it means than you are not protected in this case from the metal box because the 1 or 2 meters wire avoid to do that I suppose.... But if the baby or the Grandma put their fingers in the wall plugs...with PE, protection switch works by seiing the difference of potential if my understanding is good ?
For living rooms of old flats & houses, plastic case or wood box are in theory safier if a wire with a bad soldering break an touch the sides inside the box !
Leave you... grandma is walking to the plug..
For living rooms of old flats & houses, plastic case or wood box are in theory safier if a wire with a bad soldering break an touch the sides inside the box !
Leave you... grandma is walking to the plug..
here are the classifications:
Appliance classes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
having a plastic case or wood box is a double insulated design which most DIYers do not have the test equipment or quite often the required expertise to do and test. Having a two pin lead generally means the equipment has been manufactured and tested to class II.
I am only pointing out the relevant rules and regulations IEC 61140 being the relevant spec here (though some of the Low Voltage Directive rules also apply). These rules are not only for shock protection but also there to prevent fire hazards as well. Designing and building anything with mains in I would recommend you brush up on the rules and regulations relevant in your country and follow them, and familiarising yourself with IEC 60950 and the Low Voltage Directive is seriously recommended:
Electrical Safety: Low Voltage Directive (LVD) - Electrical engineering - Enterprise and Industry
Creepage and clearance calculator for spacing's on a PCB, can be confusing, I use it all the time so if you have any questions regarding these ask and I'll answer if I can:
WWW.CREEPAGE.COM Welcome!
If for no other reason to provide a bit of background education on the issues involved. if nothing happens with your gear there is no problem, issues arise if there ever was an accident of fire caused by equipment you have made, then you become liable. But as said it is worth doing the research as you are working with dangerous (deadly) voltages than can be a risk to yourself and to others...
Sorry for the off topic discussion but Safety First should be the first rule of any DIY designer/builder.
🙂
Appliance classes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
having a plastic case or wood box is a double insulated design which most DIYers do not have the test equipment or quite often the required expertise to do and test. Having a two pin lead generally means the equipment has been manufactured and tested to class II.
I am only pointing out the relevant rules and regulations IEC 61140 being the relevant spec here (though some of the Low Voltage Directive rules also apply). These rules are not only for shock protection but also there to prevent fire hazards as well. Designing and building anything with mains in I would recommend you brush up on the rules and regulations relevant in your country and follow them, and familiarising yourself with IEC 60950 and the Low Voltage Directive is seriously recommended:
Electrical Safety: Low Voltage Directive (LVD) - Electrical engineering - Enterprise and Industry
Creepage and clearance calculator for spacing's on a PCB, can be confusing, I use it all the time so if you have any questions regarding these ask and I'll answer if I can:
WWW.CREEPAGE.COM Welcome!
If for no other reason to provide a bit of background education on the issues involved. if nothing happens with your gear there is no problem, issues arise if there ever was an accident of fire caused by equipment you have made, then you become liable. But as said it is worth doing the research as you are working with dangerous (deadly) voltages than can be a risk to yourself and to others...
Sorry for the off topic discussion but Safety First should be the first rule of any DIY designer/builder.
🙂
I have a different safety related question to ask. I'm direct driving a pair of MyRef FE amps with the V3. I'm using the volume control on the PC source (JRiver MS) for now so nothing sits between the DAC and the power amp. There are always discussions about which input cap sounds best on FEs, and in many case the caps are compared to DC coupling where only a wire is used to jumper those pads.
Well, I finally got the courage to try DCC this weekend and really like what I am hearing. I measured for DC on the V3 outputs and found them totally clean on my build. However, in the back of my mind is still the threat of a spike or rouge DC current appearing that could damage the speakers.
How high is that probability - and/or is the danger of passing DC essentially eliminated in the Subbu/JP design? Can I rest confident that C29 and C30 will provide adequate protection.
Well, I finally got the courage to try DCC this weekend and really like what I am hearing. I measured for DC on the V3 outputs and found them totally clean on my build. However, in the back of my mind is still the threat of a spike or rouge DC current appearing that could damage the speakers.
How high is that probability - and/or is the danger of passing DC essentially eliminated in the Subbu/JP design? Can I rest confident that C29 and C30 will provide adequate protection.
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Hi Bob, I would never use a DAC directly on a poweramp. Just think of a power cable being loose....making contact again, DC coming back, large offset at the outputs and then a large speaker thump on full volume....bye bye woofers.
Volume control should be between DAC and poweramp. If you can't resist I would at least use capacitive coupling to protect your woofers (a bit). It might sound better without them but you will regret it when you make a small error with nasty consequences.
Volume control should be between DAC and poweramp. If you can't resist I would at least use capacitive coupling to protect your woofers (a bit). It might sound better without them but you will regret it when you make a small error with nasty consequences.
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Understood. The FE is designed to use just a 1 - 1.5 uF cap at the inputs and the compromise is totally acceptable, but I was actually surprised to be able to hear that slight difference/improvement using DCC. I'll heed your advice and limit DCC to short test/comparison sessions. I'm pretty careful with the setup, but as you say "things happen".
Thanks
Thanks
Hi Bob
Did you try an excelent input cap in your amp ? teflon or good paper in oil ? Sometimes I find the result better as they filter some harchness (sometimes) without real lake of transparency !
But a real one, if not a black gate unpolarized : something like this : Humble Homemade Hifi.... after ten hours you will not remenber the difference (your brain) and you keep the safety of devices, cry, fire hazard, etc ! IHMO, two cents.
Did you try an excelent input cap in your amp ? teflon or good paper in oil ? Sometimes I find the result better as they filter some harchness (sometimes) without real lake of transparency !
But a real one, if not a black gate unpolarized : something like this : Humble Homemade Hifi.... after ten hours you will not remenber the difference (your brain) and you keep the safety of devices, cry, fire hazard, etc ! IHMO, two cents.
I'm very close to the top with the Audyn True Copper caps. A review of the TCs in that same HHH link you provided is what established them as the "audiophile" choice about a year ago. The build with those is out in circulation for testing and review. I'm using an earlier (beta) build with Audyn Plus caps in the meantime and that's where I heard the difference. I'll compare DCC with the True Coppers when I get that build back. Hopefully they will be closer to the purity of the bare connection.There is a lot of positive buzz about Mundorf Supremes but I haven't tested those yet.
I just read that subjective test again. It is a nice read. All caps are only tested by ear which is OK but tricky as the human ears and brain have a subjective influence too (especially when the caps have nice colors and gold lettering). The industrial caps all are OK but the audiophile brands are more OK 🙂 Did you read the introduction ?
The subjective results of this test are meant to give you a basic idea of the sonic differences between capacitors when used in loudspeaker filters. I test all the capacitors in the signal path of tweeter and midrange circuits in loudspeaker crossovers and try them out in both series- and parallel crossovers. The capacitors are tested in different loudspeakers, varying from the ones I happen to be building at the time to the many demo speakers I have. I also use solid-state and tube amplification, analogue and digital source equipment and several different interlinks and speaker-cables during the process of evaluation that takes several months of extensive listening. Testing is done by listening to various good quality recordings on CD and vinyl and everyday high Kbs streaming internet radio. The evaluation consists of listening with just one pair of capacitors (so no switching) over a longer period of time. This is then repeated with a different capacitor. This way I get a good idea of what each capacitor does and doesn't do. Finally I do direct comparsions with previously tested types to determine the rating. Over time I may re-evaluate my previous conclusions as new capacitors enter the contest. I give each participant a rating. This scale is based purely on sound quality; price has been left out of consideration. A higher rating does not automatically mean that one capacitor is better than another. A hi-Fi system is a very complex sum of many variables, a capacitor is only one part of that total, so depending on implementation things may vary a little. On the other hand you can be assured that capacitor A with a 6 point rating won't "beat" capacitor B with a 10 point rating.
The audio business is eh.. just business. There is nothing wrong with using industrial quality caps.
The subjective results of this test are meant to give you a basic idea of the sonic differences between capacitors when used in loudspeaker filters. I test all the capacitors in the signal path of tweeter and midrange circuits in loudspeaker crossovers and try them out in both series- and parallel crossovers. The capacitors are tested in different loudspeakers, varying from the ones I happen to be building at the time to the many demo speakers I have. I also use solid-state and tube amplification, analogue and digital source equipment and several different interlinks and speaker-cables during the process of evaluation that takes several months of extensive listening. Testing is done by listening to various good quality recordings on CD and vinyl and everyday high Kbs streaming internet radio. The evaluation consists of listening with just one pair of capacitors (so no switching) over a longer period of time. This is then repeated with a different capacitor. This way I get a good idea of what each capacitor does and doesn't do. Finally I do direct comparsions with previously tested types to determine the rating. Over time I may re-evaluate my previous conclusions as new capacitors enter the contest. I give each participant a rating. This scale is based purely on sound quality; price has been left out of consideration. A higher rating does not automatically mean that one capacitor is better than another. A hi-Fi system is a very complex sum of many variables, a capacitor is only one part of that total, so depending on implementation things may vary a little. On the other hand you can be assured that capacitor A with a 6 point rating won't "beat" capacitor B with a 10 point rating.
The audio business is eh.. just business. There is nothing wrong with using industrial quality caps.
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Bosch KP with oil.... serious industrial cap !
Give me your Black Gate ! (a simple 1 uF BG standard do a miracle at C35...for my ears, system and own subjectivity !)
Give me your Black Gate ! (a simple 1 uF BG standard do a miracle at C35...for my ears, system and own subjectivity !)
Hunappilly I haven't 1 uF in the N serie neither NX ! I will try 1 uF MKS2 2.5 pitch as the 5 mm give excelent results already ... hope I will hear a difference (2 mm of board...
), but 1 uF Wima is never lost.... BTW if the standard BG give better tones & tonal balance at home , the Wima are nearly free of a harchness in the middle high which drill my ears...(those BG std doesn't tame it enough!)... surmise this is my aluminium drivers...always a trade off !
You don't want to create a super SQ/P speaker ?
the last BG at soniccraft are a little 😀 expensive... ca fait mal même !
Nothing near in the new BG line ?
), but 1 uF Wima is never lost.... BTW if the standard BG give better tones & tonal balance at home , the Wima are nearly free of a harchness in the middle high which drill my ears...(those BG std doesn't tame it enough!)... surmise this is my aluminium drivers...always a trade off !You don't want to create a super SQ/P speaker ?
the last BG at soniccraft are a little 😀 expensive... ca fait mal même !
Nothing near in the new BG line ?
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I Agree, but don't want to pass up performance like the BlackGate if I can afford the cost.
@ Eldam: "Nothing near in the new BG line ?"
I wasn't aware of a new production of BGs. Can someone share any information?