DSP is a complex subject that engineering degree graduates have friendly arguments about. There are many ways of implementing filters which can have an effect on imaging.. Here is someone talking about that effect with the DCX-2496 for example.
http://freerider.dyndns.org/anlage/LeCleach.htm
http://freerider.dyndns.org/anlage/LeCleach.htm
I came across this spreadsheet and tried what it said some time ago. And yes there was something very different about it.
Didn't really like the result so I didn't spend much time playing with it.
Didn't really like the result so I didn't spend much time playing with it.
Why not? You're passing through a complex ADC/DSP/DAC processing flow. It would not be unexpected for that signal process to alter the result audibly......even though you don't have crossover/EQ's/etc/etc programmed.
Only in a perfect world would the result be absolutely transparent under all circumstances.
Dave.
Thank Davey
That's exactly what I'm saying, inserting the minidsp into the signal path is having an effect. In my case negative!
Sent from my SM-T800 using Tapatalk
Yes, you've made that point numerous times now.
As I suggested earlier, since this unit does not have acceptable performance for you, it's time to move on and try some other brand.
Dave.
The miniDSP DACS is not a weak link. They are strong links.
The speaker elements in the system are the weakest link that can be controlled by the user. Then maybe the poweramp. The probably weakest link in the whole chain is the compression of the source material.
The poor guy used the same DAC/pre, poweramp + passive crossover in both tests. The change to his system was the miniDSP acting as ADC/DAC chain. This change, caused the soundstage to collapse in his judgement.
Logically, if it were either the passive crossover or poweramp at fault, the soundstage would be the same in both setups.
Yes, you would think so.
But that assumes he didn't have the miniDSP routing matrix improperly configured providing some sort of summed mono or single channel result (or some other configuration setting that prevented the most straightforward ADC/DSP/DAC routing.) A configuration like that would be consistent with his subjective evaluation that the "soundstage dramatically shrunk."
These type of observations by users are difficult to drill down on because of all the vague descriptions and lack of concise answers to questions regarding their system setup.
Dave.
OK, here is the config I've been using. (or versions off...)
Couldn't attach the config as it said it was invalid format, how do I upload?
I'm pretty sure its not summed mono but I've been wrong before!
Would love you to find something wrong!
Cheers
Couldn't attach the config as it said it was invalid format, how do I upload?
I'm pretty sure its not summed mono but I've been wrong before!
Would love you to find something wrong!
Cheers
That would still lead to the very same conclusion - that it was the miniDSP causing the soundstage to collapse, whether it was through DSP or just it's general effect on the signal chain. I'm sure we agree on that.
Someone suggested just before I posted that it could have been the power amp.. and previously someone kept pointing out it could be the passive crossover causing the soundstage collapse. These aspects didn't change in the check so if were either of them, the soundstage would be collapsed with or without the miniDSP in the chain.
In other words, they had jumped into the thread without knowing the OP's situation or were confusing the OP's situation with other people's discussions about their setup. Hence I feel for nzlowie trying to get his point across.
Possible screenshot? Me too - love there to be something wrong in the settings. Not used my miniDSP yet but would be disapointing to feel I'll have to upgrade at some later date.
Yes, because of possible improper configuration of the routing matrix. I thought I was clear with my explanation on that.
Maybe try your unit out first and get some experience before second-guessing my possible explanations????? 🙂
Dave.
Ok, to make clear for the sake of argument, then the answer to your post above is:
No it doesn't assume that at all.
If you read my post in full, then you will see that all it assumes is that the circumstances are exactly as the OP describes (how can one assume differently?), that the insertion of the miniDSP causes the change no matter what the underlying cause of that change is (whether the miniDSP's setup or that it's the miniDSP's colouration).
Which then makes your next post irrelevent and out of place.
Sorry to push this point Davey but your writing style comes across as confrontational in this thread despite the mis-understanding seemingly coming from you not absorbing the entirety of my (very short) post. And no, adding a smiley doesn't change the confrontational wording 🙂 .
If it were the case that it was the ADC/DAC of the miniDSP (i.e. there was true pass-through, hyperthetically if need be to save anyone suggesting this is possible) would two miniDSP's working as mono crossover's solve a soundstage problem?
In other words, is relative soundstage collapse only a factor of summing/channel crosstalk etc or a matter of lack of resolution meaning that soundstage cues are missing causing the brain not to interpret the sound as coming from a wider image?
In other words, is relative soundstage collapse only a factor of summing/channel crosstalk etc or a matter of lack of resolution meaning that soundstage cues are missing causing the brain not to interpret the sound as coming from a wider image?
Oh for crying out loud. My goodness.
I've had enough. I'm fairly convinced this guy's a troll anyway since he's cross-threaded to the other forum and hasn't provided any meaningful feedback to explain the situation there either.
Out.
Dave.
I've had enough. I'm fairly convinced this guy's a troll anyway since he's cross-threaded to the other forum and hasn't provided any meaningful feedback to explain the situation there either.
Out.
Dave.
Forget it, I'm out as well.
Who are you to call me a troll? Is there a rule that you can only post to one forum on the net, get real!
All I was looking for was some others opinions on the issue I have. There is noticeable degradation, the minidsp is a budget bit of kit so maybe I was nieve to think it would perform as well as some of my other quality components....
So for those that offered constructive advice, thanks. For those with minidsp blinkers, open your eyes.
Good bye.
Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk
Who are you to call me a troll? Is there a rule that you can only post to one forum on the net, get real!
All I was looking for was some others opinions on the issue I have. There is noticeable degradation, the minidsp is a budget bit of kit so maybe I was nieve to think it would perform as well as some of my other quality components....
So for those that offered constructive advice, thanks. For those with minidsp blinkers, open your eyes.
Good bye.
Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk
Hi nzlowie,
i understand your point very well despite i didnt here the mini dps yet.
I made compareable experience using an behringer dcx 2496 DSP,
alto pc DSP and behringer super x pro (Analog circuit)
and different passive crossover since i made speakers.
Every DSP System left in bypass mode (no EQ, Filter...) a sonic signature
to the signal just as every other pice of audio gear in a setup.
Yes, the are other important things in the audio chain like a plain on and
off axis freuqency of the speaker, the interaction with the room and so on
but despite of that one can hear the sonic signature of DSP in every setup despite it doesn't have to be the worst thing in the audio chain (Now i live in a
flat in an attic with OSB Plates on all ceilings, walls, floor.. with a massive bass to low mid absorbing effect where NO speaker in the world could archive an accaptable sound).
Back to the DSP System... the Behringer DSP (or his Outputstage, powersupply) makes the base sounding FLAT. Theres no depth, no blackness?? just an very uninvolving bass sound despite of the base you connect and room you try. I try Beyma 15lx60, Seas Ca18, Voltaudio B2500...
If you use the all analog super x pro from Behringer the sound is good like in the passive crossover.
The alto DSP on the other hand sound no too flat but has to much kick due to the crossover slopes arent perfect 24 db LR with a sharp knee at the crossover frequency.
My point is if you combine a behringer DCX or alto like DSP with a Speaker amp chain of high quality than that is the weakest link despite of what so ever frequency and room response you archived within this system.
nzlowie, if yu want to go active try the hypex active crossovers. They are only iir. If you are experienced with electronics than analog active filter simulated with soundeasy is a cheap and good sounding way to go.
The Eeaster Bunny from germany
i understand your point very well despite i didnt here the mini dps yet.
I made compareable experience using an behringer dcx 2496 DSP,
alto pc DSP and behringer super x pro (Analog circuit)
and different passive crossover since i made speakers.
Every DSP System left in bypass mode (no EQ, Filter...) a sonic signature
to the signal just as every other pice of audio gear in a setup.
Yes, the are other important things in the audio chain like a plain on and
off axis freuqency of the speaker, the interaction with the room and so on
but despite of that one can hear the sonic signature of DSP in every setup despite it doesn't have to be the worst thing in the audio chain (Now i live in a
flat in an attic with OSB Plates on all ceilings, walls, floor.. with a massive bass to low mid absorbing effect where NO speaker in the world could archive an accaptable sound).
Back to the DSP System... the Behringer DSP (or his Outputstage, powersupply) makes the base sounding FLAT. Theres no depth, no blackness?? just an very uninvolving bass sound despite of the base you connect and room you try. I try Beyma 15lx60, Seas Ca18, Voltaudio B2500...
If you use the all analog super x pro from Behringer the sound is good like in the passive crossover.
The alto DSP on the other hand sound no too flat but has to much kick due to the crossover slopes arent perfect 24 db LR with a sharp knee at the crossover frequency.
My point is if you combine a behringer DCX or alto like DSP with a Speaker amp chain of high quality than that is the weakest link despite of what so ever frequency and room response you archived within this system.
nzlowie, if yu want to go active try the hypex active crossovers. They are only iir. If you are experienced with electronics than analog active filter simulated with soundeasy is a cheap and good sounding way to go.
The Eeaster Bunny from germany
I would like to know where you stand now, and if you fixed the problems.
It's most likely the implementation, the DSP chip itself can be well used but it needs good powersupply and a good DAC.
Minidsp uses crap dac's with crap power supply how could it ever sound good.
I'm amazed how the trolls can call other people trolls.
Very annoying to read through the last pages of this thread.
Stupidity is astounding.
However i think the minisharc and nanosharc are great products that when powered and clocked well and put before good dac in a well clocked chain are exemplary.
It's most likely the implementation, the DSP chip itself can be well used but it needs good powersupply and a good DAC.
Minidsp uses crap dac's with crap power supply how could it ever sound good.
I'm amazed how the trolls can call other people trolls.
Very annoying to read through the last pages of this thread.
Stupidity is astounding.
However i think the minisharc and nanosharc are great products that when powered and clocked well and put before good dac in a well clocked chain are exemplary.
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I've just finished my latest attempt at active. This time I've used the analog version of the minidsp, one 2x4 for each channel, four Pass ACA's. Pretty happy now! The trouble I had before was the compressed sound stage with the full digital minidsp, so using one minidsp board per channel the sound stage and imagery is now what I'm after.
As I say pretty happy now.
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