Joel said:
But such an argument is pointless. It's so simple to do a listening experiment and resolve the question. And by "experiment," I mean one that is set up to eliminate the possibility of fooling yourself (there's way too little useful experimentation done by audio hobbyists, but that's an argument for a different day). And by "difference in sound," I mean in a certain position in a certain circuit; as soon as I see someone say something like "carbon composition resistors sound warmer than metal films" with no qualification, I know I'm dealing with a moron.
BTW, not to be a turd here, but 6x5=30 can certainly be argued about. Like if I'm using a base 7 system and you're using base 9....
SY said:
Be very careful Sy. As much as I agree with you, that opinion is not tolerated here. I believe a statement similar to that by me is what started the 100 post blasting you see before you.
Sorry Joel, but this time you missed SY's point.
He is saying "post something with substance, and proof, not just opinion". Yet I posted both substance and electronic fact (as well as other smart folks like you have done), and yet you say "You missed the point, Gabe".
So for both your sakes, and for the last time:
I use polypropeline capacitors for interstage coupling in most applications. They... uh.. my amps sound clean and distinct. But when I replaced the interstage coupler of one stage with a copper foil paper in oil capacitor (exact same value), bass got a little deeper and highs got somewhat grainy. Steve bench provides the proof with a Lissajou pattern which displays the nonlinearities that explain what I hear. Replacing all the interstage caps got more deep bass and more grainy highs, but much more detail in the mids. It was nice overall, but I cannot justify paying 16 dollars per cap versus 75 cents.
Cheaper carbon resistors on the other hand should give nothing more than noise. That is also substantiated with experiment and measured fact. One can indeed measure the noise of a carbon resistor versus metal film. Yet, some more fact: noise tends to mask undesirable and objectionable sound (as ANY recording engineer, acoustician, and otolaryngologist will tell you). So of course some will say that they think the noisy carbon resistors sound better, because noise is masking what they don't like to hear.
As for musicians, I was just showing that those ancdotes are all over the place and different for different people and experiences.
Did I miss the point? Purely your opinion for the sake of... "discussion"?
And the statement that you "just like to argue" is not substantiated? How about posting a statement like "If you're into the raw Hammond look. Somebody send the man a spray can!"? It was obviously designed to do just what it did you clever little Vulcan. Provoke me to reply. I will only say this: I haven't gotten any complaints yet!
Gabe
He is saying "post something with substance, and proof, not just opinion". Yet I posted both substance and electronic fact (as well as other smart folks like you have done), and yet you say "You missed the point, Gabe".
So for both your sakes, and for the last time:
I use polypropeline capacitors for interstage coupling in most applications. They... uh.. my amps sound clean and distinct. But when I replaced the interstage coupler of one stage with a copper foil paper in oil capacitor (exact same value), bass got a little deeper and highs got somewhat grainy. Steve bench provides the proof with a Lissajou pattern which displays the nonlinearities that explain what I hear. Replacing all the interstage caps got more deep bass and more grainy highs, but much more detail in the mids. It was nice overall, but I cannot justify paying 16 dollars per cap versus 75 cents.
Cheaper carbon resistors on the other hand should give nothing more than noise. That is also substantiated with experiment and measured fact. One can indeed measure the noise of a carbon resistor versus metal film. Yet, some more fact: noise tends to mask undesirable and objectionable sound (as ANY recording engineer, acoustician, and otolaryngologist will tell you). So of course some will say that they think the noisy carbon resistors sound better, because noise is masking what they don't like to hear.
As for musicians, I was just showing that those ancdotes are all over the place and different for different people and experiences.
Did I miss the point? Purely your opinion for the sake of... "discussion"?
And the statement that you "just like to argue" is not substantiated? How about posting a statement like "If you're into the raw Hammond look. Somebody send the man a spray can!"? It was obviously designed to do just what it did you clever little Vulcan. Provoke me to reply. I will only say this: I haven't gotten any complaints yet!
Gabe
Now I'm a 'Vulcan'?
😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀
Will you look at all the entertainment you people are getting??? And for FREE!!! We should all send Jason $1, just for this thread alone.
anyway, Gabe, I have done the old switcheroo dozens of times also. I did not hear the things you describe.
Now can we let it go?
😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀
Will you look at all the entertainment you people are getting??? And for FREE!!! We should all send Jason $1, just for this thread alone.
anyway, Gabe, I have done the old switcheroo dozens of times also. I did not hear the things you describe.
Now can we let it go?
Gabe, how did you determine that substituting a copper foil paper in oil (nice poetry, that!) caused the sonic effects that you describe? Did you listen, do the substitution, then listen again?
Argument is healthy
Several people have referred to Steve Bench's excellent page on capacitor non-linearities.
No component is perfect if we look deeply enough.
The question seems to me, to be:
Is the difference SIGNIFICANT?
Now that's the argument😉
Perhaps I am not well enough read, but no one has so far shown me the effect of changing a coupling capacitor type - in terms of measured overall response.
I know we're getting into that dark area...... I always measure and listen.
Finally an admission and a little hypocracy:
Although I'm not on the "orange drops bandwagon", I have still chosen the best reasonably priced caps for my current amp.
Why? Because it gives me more confidence, and is another thing I don't have to worry about😉
This is the closest I come to superstition
Several people have referred to Steve Bench's excellent page on capacitor non-linearities.
No component is perfect if we look deeply enough.
The question seems to me, to be:
Is the difference SIGNIFICANT?
Now that's the argument😉
Perhaps I am not well enough read, but no one has so far shown me the effect of changing a coupling capacitor type - in terms of measured overall response.
I know we're getting into that dark area......
I always measure and listen.Finally an admission and a little hypocracy:
Although I'm not on the "orange drops bandwagon", I have still chosen the best reasonably priced caps for my current amp.
Why? Because it gives me more confidence, and is another thing I don't have to worry about😉
This is the closest I come to superstition
healthy weather of sweden today - i like it
who is gonna stop me
if i do both
😀 😀
😀 😀 you can try!! if you want to .... 😀 😀 😀 😀
that is The Waydhaen said:Several people .......... xeye: I always measure and listen.
Finally an admission and a little hypocracy:
Although I'm not on the "orange drops bandwagon", I have still chosen the best reasonably priced caps for my current amp.
Why? Because it gives me more confidence, and is another thing I don't have to worry about😉
This is the closest I come to superstition
who is gonna stop me
if i do both
😀
😀 😀 😀 you can try!! if you want to .... 😀 😀 😀 😀
Another day....another post
Halojoy,
I do believe you are shamelessly posting to reach enlightenment😉
Halojoy,
I do believe you are shamelessly posting to reach enlightenment😉
Enlightment?
Hi,
I feel enlightment should be related to the <B>quality</B> of the posts not to the cheer <B>number.</B>
Just an enlightened thought.😎
Hi,
I feel enlightment should be related to the <B>quality</B> of the posts not to the cheer <B>number.</B>
Just an enlightened thought.😎
Re: both of usa
Won't that be a <B><I>contradictio in terminis?</B></I> (contradiction in terms) 😎
Hi halojoy,halojoy said:
Won't that be a <B><I>contradictio in terminis?</B></I> (contradiction in terms) 😎
elso elso elso - when will you ever learn
when i talk/write
i do not do math
but i speakesth
/halo of gredat . Mas & Quality
when i talk/write
i do not do math
but i speakesth
/halo of gredat . Mas & Quality
Hello SY,
You asked: "Did you listen, do the substitution, then listen again?"
Yes, that is exactly what I did. Like other skeptics, I generally do not subscribe to the "paper caps sound sweet" mentality, but do know that, for electrolytics in particular, there are internal inductances that occur that can cause some frequency response nonlinearities.
I used that to my advantage when making a tone control for a small radio I had in my teens. Most tone controls use something on the order of 0.047 to 0.3 µF for tone control. I used a 47µF electrolytic, because it actually acted as a tone contour, where it attenuated the midrange. This is because it was more like an LC bandpass filter, its internal inductance allowing high frequencies to pass. Of course, a 10K pot was needed and adjusted to get the right effect, otherwise all frequencies would get shunted.
As for the test between the orange drops and the oil caps, I really did not expect to hear anything different. If I didn't, I would have tried to get my money back, or just chalked it up to experience. But I did hear it. But in my opinion not enough to warrant the cost difference. I prefer the highs to be clean, not slightly "fuzzy" or "grainy".
As for measurement tests everyone (except for maybe a couple) here knows that two amps that measure the same may not necessarily sound the same.
Gabe
You asked: "Did you listen, do the substitution, then listen again?"
Yes, that is exactly what I did. Like other skeptics, I generally do not subscribe to the "paper caps sound sweet" mentality, but do know that, for electrolytics in particular, there are internal inductances that occur that can cause some frequency response nonlinearities.
I used that to my advantage when making a tone control for a small radio I had in my teens. Most tone controls use something on the order of 0.047 to 0.3 µF for tone control. I used a 47µF electrolytic, because it actually acted as a tone contour, where it attenuated the midrange. This is because it was more like an LC bandpass filter, its internal inductance allowing high frequencies to pass. Of course, a 10K pot was needed and adjusted to get the right effect, otherwise all frequencies would get shunted.
As for the test between the orange drops and the oil caps, I really did not expect to hear anything different. If I didn't, I would have tried to get my money back, or just chalked it up to experience. But I did hear it. But in my opinion not enough to warrant the cost difference. I prefer the highs to be clean, not slightly "fuzzy" or "grainy".
As for measurement tests everyone (except for maybe a couple) here knows that two amps that measure the same may not necessarily sound the same.
Gabe
Playing devils advocate...
a) We are measuring the wrong parameters,
or
b) We are interpreting the measurements wrongly,
or
c) There are important parameters we are failing to measure.
😕
Doesn't that mean:
a) We are measuring the wrong parameters,
or
b) We are interpreting the measurements wrongly,
or
c) There are important parameters we are failing to measure.
😕
Gabe, thanks. That's pretty much what I expected. Did you do anything to validate your hypothesis?
John, I choose:
d) We're using a pre-Enlightenment definition of listening test, so have no reliable handle on when things do and don't sound different.
d) We're using a pre-Enlightenment definition of listening test, so have no reliable handle on when things do and don't sound different.
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