Gabevee
A test between two tube amplifiers might show more that the test between a SS and a tube amp. Lets compare apples to apples. Lets modify two monoblock amps of the same make. Lets run distortion tests on the two amps under the same conditions and lets audition the amps, one modified,one stock. This in my mind would be a fair test. Anything else is just a waste of time.
It was brought up in a prior post about someone wanting modification of an amp and thinking their amp had been modified remarked on how much sweeter it sounded. Sorry, not meaning any disrespect to anyone here as I surely am not qualified in the tube field. I do expect concrete proof before I will believe there is a difference. I still believe if a difference can be heard it can also be measured. Just my .02
Joe
A test between two tube amplifiers might show more that the test between a SS and a tube amp. Lets compare apples to apples. Lets modify two monoblock amps of the same make. Lets run distortion tests on the two amps under the same conditions and lets audition the amps, one modified,one stock. This in my mind would be a fair test. Anything else is just a waste of time.
It was brought up in a prior post about someone wanting modification of an amp and thinking their amp had been modified remarked on how much sweeter it sounded. Sorry, not meaning any disrespect to anyone here as I surely am not qualified in the tube field. I do expect concrete proof before I will believe there is a difference. I still believe if a difference can be heard it can also be measured. Just my .02
Joe
BACK TO SQUARE ONE?
Hi,
Gavin,
Regarding the question on whether to use carbon film or metal film resistor:
Carbon films haven't been around all that long but I love the way they sound!
I wouldn't go overboard with that but I like them for anode resistors.
Anything in series with the signal path would either be a tantalum or a non-magnetic metalfilm such as the very neutral sounding Vishay bulkfoil.
These are expensive though and I'm a bit surprised at the use of such high value gridstoppers I see in a lot of presented circuits.
I hardly use any unless in very critical circuits.
Subjectively and objectively they add their own noise and kill off dynamic range when oversized.
Often I get excellent results with a 10R to 100R gridstopper,most of the time it only degrades the sound.
Carbon comps,here I agree with Joel in that these are totally obsolete,noisy and unreliable.
I'm very well aware of the fact that no generalization should be made and I know many a died in the wool tube-o-phile that swears by the Allen Bradley Carbons.
They sound good to me and are definitely in a class of their own.
Still,they're not really to my taste,a bit overly romantic in sonic signature.
Ciao,😉
Hi,
Gavin,
Regarding the question on whether to use carbon film or metal film resistor:
Carbon films haven't been around all that long but I love the way they sound!
I wouldn't go overboard with that but I like them for anode resistors.
Anything in series with the signal path would either be a tantalum or a non-magnetic metalfilm such as the very neutral sounding Vishay bulkfoil.
These are expensive though and I'm a bit surprised at the use of such high value gridstoppers I see in a lot of presented circuits.
I hardly use any unless in very critical circuits.
Subjectively and objectively they add their own noise and kill off dynamic range when oversized.
Often I get excellent results with a 10R to 100R gridstopper,most of the time it only degrades the sound.
Carbon comps,here I agree with Joel in that these are totally obsolete,noisy and unreliable.
I'm very well aware of the fact that no generalization should be made and I know many a died in the wool tube-o-phile that swears by the Allen Bradley Carbons.
They sound good to me and are definitely in a class of their own.
Still,they're not really to my taste,a bit overly romantic in sonic signature.
Ciao,😉
Burnedfingers,
I did not do the comparison test between SS and tube amp. I think it was Audio magazine.
Sy,
Are you referring to my tests? If so, it is my usial MO to listen, not just for the moment, but for a time. A few weeks. Then make the change and then listen. I think that one has to get used to the sound for awhile before one can actually hear a difference in a change. Otherwise, one can easily be fooled if one listens to the amp for ten minutes, or even an hour, then to change. One may not hear a thing. But when one is used to a certain audible signature, and it changes slightly, one can then hear a difference. Kind of like the optical "persistence of vision". But now we can get into a whole thing about neurology and psychoacoustics.
Gabe
I did not do the comparison test between SS and tube amp. I think it was Audio magazine.
Sy,
Are you referring to my tests? If so, it is my usial MO to listen, not just for the moment, but for a time. A few weeks. Then make the change and then listen. I think that one has to get used to the sound for awhile before one can actually hear a difference in a change. Otherwise, one can easily be fooled if one listens to the amp for ten minutes, or even an hour, then to change. One may not hear a thing. But when one is used to a certain audible signature, and it changes slightly, one can then hear a difference. Kind of like the optical "persistence of vision". But now we can get into a whole thing about neurology and psychoacoustics.
Gabe
Oh, I dunno, for me at least, if the difference in two versions of an amp was "bass got a little deeper and highs got somewhat grainy," I'd think I'd be able to hear that pretty quickly. But admittedly, I try to build amps that have no discernable "audible signature" in their intended use.
I've seen reports that tantalums fom Partsconnexion don't sound that well and they are also magnetic.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/show...60&perpage=15&highlight=tantalum&pagenumber=6
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/show...60&perpage=15&highlight=tantalum&pagenumber=6
Re: BACK TO SQUARE ONE?
Despite the fact that this the first time I ever hear anybody recommend tantalum in the signal path I have one question:
In the tube amp is there not a potential (!) for high voltages over a decoupling cap and hence very hard to find tantalum caps for this?
fdegrove said:
Despite the fact that this the first time I ever hear anybody recommend tantalum in the signal path I have one question:
In the tube amp is there not a potential (!) for high voltages over a decoupling cap and hence very hard to find tantalum caps for this?
Re: Re: BACK TO SQUARE ONE?
UrSv,
Oh yes, the golden-ears love tantalum RESISTORS... meanwhile they consider tantalum caps on an even lower plane of hell than ceramics. (As they fire up their Fisher 400, packed full of ceramics)
😉
Interstage coupling capacitors in tube amps need to be rated high, usually in the 400V range, depending on the circuit. I don't know if I've ever seen 400-600 tants before, but then I haven't looked.
UrSv said:
UrSv,
Oh yes, the golden-ears love tantalum RESISTORS... meanwhile they consider tantalum caps on an even lower plane of hell than ceramics. (As they fire up their Fisher 400, packed full of ceramics)
😉
Interstage coupling capacitors in tube amps need to be rated high, usually in the 400V range, depending on the circuit. I don't know if I've ever seen 400-600 tants before, but then I haven't looked.
Oh, bugger. That's what you get when you read to quickly in a topic not really your bag of burgers. Of course it was resistors...which I second as very good choice. I built my Kaneda La Solstice using tantalum resistors only and the famous Shizuki cap.
Sorry...
Sorry...
Re: Re: Re: BACK TO SQUARE ONE?
I have an 800B, also packed full of ceramics, and whilst it's a much more pleasant amp to listen to than almost all SS, it falls way short of the resolving power of more modern designs.
Tants stink, even worse than ceramics. Not too hard to measure the crap performance of either type.Joel said:
Yawn, another strawman.
I have an 800B, also packed full of ceramics, and whilst it's a much more pleasant amp to listen to than almost all SS, it falls way short of the resolving power of more modern designs.
SHIZUKI
Hi,
Ah,ah....I used to have a box full of Shizukis.
A very good cap with high quality film and so tightly wound that when you sawed one in two it looked like a solid metal block.
Anyone ever tried the Taitsu?Eurofarad?
Cheers,😉
Hi,
Ah,ah....I used to have a box full of Shizukis.
A very good cap with high quality film and so tightly wound that when you sawed one in two it looked like a solid metal block.
Anyone ever tried the Taitsu?Eurofarad?
Cheers,😉
Tantalum
This tantalum capacitor thing is a strange one!
There does seem to be almost universal agreement in audio circles that they are NG.
I have used them for years for decoupling in broadcast video equipment where (apart from S/N) the requirements are more stringent.
Tanatlum resistors:
Why does it matter that they are magnetic?
This tantalum capacitor thing is a strange one!
There does seem to be almost universal agreement in audio circles that they are NG.
I have used them for years for decoupling in broadcast video equipment where (apart from S/N) the requirements are more stringent.
Tanatlum resistors:
Why does it matter that they are magnetic?
Measurements
In a contest between any well designed piece of SS and tube gear, the SS will always win if we test THD & Frequency response.
Therefore I assert that those are not useful parameters to compare.
We need to invent a test signal that describes the full range of dynamics - I know; let's use MUSIC😀
Seriously it might well be the dynamics that have it.
Alternatively:
Consider an imperfect system comprising of an imperfect amplifier and imperfect speakers. Get the imperfections just right - and you could cancel them out.
In a contest between any well designed piece of SS and tube gear, the SS will always win if we test THD & Frequency response.
Therefore I assert that those are not useful parameters to compare.
We need to invent a test signal that describes the full range of dynamics - I know; let's use MUSIC😀
Seriously it might well be the dynamics that have it.
Alternatively:
Consider an imperfect system comprising of an imperfect amplifier and imperfect speakers. Get the imperfections just right - and you could cancel them out.
UNLESS YOU LISTEN TO STEEL PANS.
Hello,
Because the endcaps and leadout wires contain iron based materials such as steel.
Subjectively any magnetic materials in the signal path give a harsh,glary,errr...steely sound.
Usual suspects: resistors,some strain reliefs and collet chucks on RCA plugs,cheap speaker posts and such like.
Cheers,😉
Hello,
Because the endcaps and leadout wires contain iron based materials such as steel.
Subjectively any magnetic materials in the signal path give a harsh,glary,errr...steely sound.
Usual suspects: resistors,some strain reliefs and collet chucks on RCA plugs,cheap speaker posts and such like.
Cheers,😉
Except, presumably, those magnetic materials used inside your favorite tubes?
If a magnetic material sounds harsh and steely in a direct signal path, shouldn't it then sound smooth and mellow in a feedback path?
Where did I put my lithium? The doc says it's time for another dose.
If a magnetic material sounds harsh and steely in a direct signal path, shouldn't it then sound smooth and mellow in a feedback path?
Where did I put my lithium? The doc says it's time for another dose.
Sy,
Soft metals sound the best. That's why I use mercury for all the connections in my amps. It's a damn mess, but boy does it sound GOOD!
Soft metals sound the best. That's why I use mercury for all the connections in my amps. It's a damn mess, but boy does it sound GOOD!
Joel, you should do what I do- I keep my amp chilled below LN2 temperature so the mercury stays nice and solid. As a bonus, this allows me to use superconducting ceramic as my capacitor plates.
One practical joke I've always wanted to do was to make a set of speaker cables out of Wood's Metal. This alloy is solid at room temp, but melts at just a few degrees above that. It's popular for magicians' effects. I give the cables to a headbanger, let him hook them up and crank the tunes. After a few minutes, the cables warm up slightly and melt. Heavy, dude! It will be a story he'll tell to his pierced-nippled buddies for years to come.
One practical joke I've always wanted to do was to make a set of speaker cables out of Wood's Metal. This alloy is solid at room temp, but melts at just a few degrees above that. It's popular for magicians' effects. I give the cables to a headbanger, let him hook them up and crank the tunes. After a few minutes, the cables warm up slightly and melt. Heavy, dude! It will be a story he'll tell to his pierced-nippled buddies for years to come.
SY said:
Sy, that's a really good tip, thanks! Have you tried operating your amps in a vacuum? I had custom acrylic spheres made to fit my Domo Ari Gato 600-B monoblocks, and pumped all the air out. I find that tubes have too much resonance with the nitrogen content in air at high temperatures to really linearly pass the upper end harmonics, especially with voices. The effect is most sublime when you take air out of the equation.
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