You mean amatuers like Walt Jung, Richard Marsh, Ben Duncan, Dr Malcolm Hawkesford? I'm sure they would all benefit from your vast experience.Joel said:
Because even if every audiophile manufacturer used 715P's it would still only account for a tiny fraction of Sprague's business which is largely selling to industrial and military suppliers, and I doubt they are interested in pursuing that particular market.
JH, that's exactly my point. For a DIYer it is easy to make a change in an amp say between different brands of resistor or capacitors, and for a small cost. With little outlay, except for time and less than the cost of a pizza, it is possible for people to experiment and discover for themselves whether the changes are audible and / or significant. Whatever the finding, the experimenter has gained something from the experience that is all the more valuable for having done it.jh6you said:
Whilst I've mentioned resitors and caps above, it equally applies (wrt experimental process) for different topologies. After DIYing for a while many people have lots in their parts bins that allow for easy experimentation. I could probably make 50 different line stages, and half that many poweramps (all at once) with what I have laying around , ie zero cost but some time. New amps are built and tested at chez Brett periodically just to see what they're like.
If HF is so much of a bible to you, why do you use an amp that has very poor performance by all objective measurements? Wouldn't you be better off with a Sansui AU505? After all it measures better, so it must sound better to you, right?Joel said:
Is something burning, or is that just the smell of flaming hypocrisy?
The Jung / Marsh article on caps was published in Audio (hardly a subjectivist magazine) in 1980. It has been replicated and expanded upon a number of times in the interim.
Put a spec-an across the mains and have a look at all the crap that comes into a house (or is generated by components inside) due to the proliferation if digital consumer electronics of all varieties, light dimmers, commercial switchers etc which all generate in combination a level of broadband hash that was unheard of in the 60's, even if you lived in an industrial area. Many consumer audio items have marginal PSUs and little or no filtering (built to a price), so in some instances, filtering and / or regeneration may be beneficial. There are ways for a DIYer to do it quite cheaply too.
OK, reading this thread got me to register here...which is kind of depressing.
A couple of observations -
- Russian PIO output caps in my 6sn7 foreplay sound immensely different than the Solens they replaced.
- Looking at their data sheets, a 6sn7 and a 12au7 should share many basic sonic attributes, but they don't - if my experiences are of any relevance.
- If you don't like even-order harmonics, cut off your ears and burn every acoustic instrument you come across.
- My lowly line stage beats up on my Spectral DMC10 in a big way - even though the Spectral was designed by someone with more knowledge and insight than 99% of the designers alive today(exaggerating about the 99%, not the fact that my foreplay is musically superior).
- Some people are just plain bitter.
- My legs are grey. My ears are gnarled. My eyes are old and bent.
A couple of observations -
- Russian PIO output caps in my 6sn7 foreplay sound immensely different than the Solens they replaced.
- Looking at their data sheets, a 6sn7 and a 12au7 should share many basic sonic attributes, but they don't - if my experiences are of any relevance.
- If you don't like even-order harmonics, cut off your ears and burn every acoustic instrument you come across.
- My lowly line stage beats up on my Spectral DMC10 in a big way - even though the Spectral was designed by someone with more knowledge and insight than 99% of the designers alive today(exaggerating about the 99%, not the fact that my foreplay is musically superior).
- Some people are just plain bitter.
- My legs are grey. My ears are gnarled. My eyes are old and bent.
Nah. I was babysitting my sick nephew, and I wanted to be quiet so I did some typing as I didn't have a book with me. Otherwise I wouldn't have bothered. Took me about an hour.Joel said:
I am impressed by your on point responses.
On a more serious note, I just want to add that although Brett thinks I've never picked up a soldering iron - nothing could be further from the truth. Everything I've said is based on my own experience, not theory - just as what you all believe is based on your's. End result = no one is going to convince either side.
I've used oil caps, expensive wire, carbon comps, and NOS tubes... end result, for me, was I realized I was making the suppliers rich.
And while people are calling me bitter, argumentative, close-minded, etc - they better go back and read the posts of all the other people in this thread. Some pretty insulting stuff.
I've used oil caps, expensive wire, carbon comps, and NOS tubes... end result, for me, was I realized I was making the suppliers rich.
And while people are calling me bitter, argumentative, close-minded, etc - they better go back and read the posts of all the other people in this thread. Some pretty insulting stuff.
QUOTE]And while people are calling me bitter, argumentative, close-minded, etc - they better go back and read the posts of all the other people in this thread. Some pretty insulting stuff.[/QUOTE]
On that point I agree 100%.
But when presented with facts... it is as I said to my son last night while helping him with math. I helped him figure out the answer and told him how it was arrived at. He then said "but...", to which I promptly replied "there are no "buts" in math. The answer is 30. Period. No buts." The evidence was there but he had an argument.
Was I being closed minded, ignorant or full of hype crap? Should I have allowed him the grey area to choose a different answer? Would he have been correct?
http://www.physics.uq.edu.au/people/ficek/ph348/sols/sol8/node3.html
http://www.tdk.co.jp/tebch02/
www.e-insite.net/ednmag/archives/1998/102298/pdfs/19m4022.pdf
http://nina.ecse.rpi.edu/shur/advanced/Notes/Noteshtm/MOSCap8/sld014.htm
I guess most of us are wrong. All capacitors are the same. All transformers are the same. All tubes are the same. (Is the sarcasm thick enough yet?) 😉 😀
Later!
Gabe
On that point I agree 100%.
But when presented with facts... it is as I said to my son last night while helping him with math. I helped him figure out the answer and told him how it was arrived at. He then said "but...", to which I promptly replied "there are no "buts" in math. The answer is 30. Period. No buts." The evidence was there but he had an argument.
Was I being closed minded, ignorant or full of hype crap? Should I have allowed him the grey area to choose a different answer? Would he have been correct?
http://www.physics.uq.edu.au/people/ficek/ph348/sols/sol8/node3.html
http://www.tdk.co.jp/tebch02/
www.e-insite.net/ednmag/archives/1998/102298/pdfs/19m4022.pdf
http://nina.ecse.rpi.edu/shur/advanced/Notes/Noteshtm/MOSCap8/sld014.htm
I guess most of us are wrong. All capacitors are the same. All transformers are the same. All tubes are the same. (Is the sarcasm thick enough yet?) 😉 😀
Later!
Gabe
Gabe,
6x5=30 cannot be argued. But the "sound" of two capacitors, both measuring exactly .1MF can most certainly be argued about.
It just so happens that my opinion is in the minority here - but there are circles where it would be in the majority.
6x5=30 cannot be argued. But the "sound" of two capacitors, both measuring exactly .1MF can most certainly be argued about.
It just so happens that my opinion is in the minority here - but there are circles where it would be in the majority.
No. You made claims that what you were presenting was based on sound engineering principles, and therefore superior to what other people had posted, and I challenged that.Joel said:
You hurl insults all over the place, post "technical" stuff in a condescending manner (which was easily rebutted), are rude and ignorant and <i>then</i> want to play victim?
bwahahahahahahahahaha Stop it, my sides are hurting.
So you'd like to tell me, all I learned about electronics all these years is b**********, and that capacitors are specified SOLELY by their capacitance ?!
Regards
Charles
holy book of halojoy&his friends
Ya getta so much from t'bible - all free, too! 😉
I tink u rite.Brett said:
Ya getta so much from t'bible - all free, too! 😉
Joel,
A 0.1 µF capacitor can be made dozens of different ways. The metal used, the dielectric used, and the way one forms it all have what is known as an electronic equivalent.
In other words, one capacitor made from aluminum foil separated by polypropeline, and made one size, will have an internal inductance, stray capacitance, and resistance very much different from one made with copper foil, paper dielectric and a different overall size and one made with silver foil, mica and an even different physical dimension. All three will measure 0.1µ, but will act as three totally different filter networks, not perfect capacitors, which is what you seem to keep thinking. Theoretically all three caps should be exactly the same in all ways, but in the real world all these stray properties exist and will affect the operation of the circuit involved.
For general purpose design... or for the masses... any capaitor will do the job, to be sure. But higher end equipment will have more "hand picked", accurate components.
I am sure your books have both the theoretical models and real world models. Mine do!
So measured capacitance means less than you think. Doesn't your collection of RDH's have any of that theory? Or do only my four textbooks have those facts?
So... I think that the majority of electronic circles will agree with me totally... because it is right there in all the books!
Or should we burn all the books and write new ones?
Pedroskova,
Thanks for reposting the Steve Bench article, but I don't think he will read it inasmuch as it will prove him wrong.
Facetiously yours,
Gabe
A 0.1 µF capacitor can be made dozens of different ways. The metal used, the dielectric used, and the way one forms it all have what is known as an electronic equivalent.
In other words, one capacitor made from aluminum foil separated by polypropeline, and made one size, will have an internal inductance, stray capacitance, and resistance very much different from one made with copper foil, paper dielectric and a different overall size and one made with silver foil, mica and an even different physical dimension. All three will measure 0.1µ, but will act as three totally different filter networks, not perfect capacitors, which is what you seem to keep thinking. Theoretically all three caps should be exactly the same in all ways, but in the real world all these stray properties exist and will affect the operation of the circuit involved.
For general purpose design... or for the masses... any capaitor will do the job, to be sure. But higher end equipment will have more "hand picked", accurate components.
I am sure your books have both the theoretical models and real world models. Mine do!
So measured capacitance means less than you think. Doesn't your collection of RDH's have any of that theory? Or do only my four textbooks have those facts?
So... I think that the majority of electronic circles will agree with me totally... because it is right there in all the books!
Or should we burn all the books and write new ones?
Pedroskova,
Thanks for reposting the Steve Bench article, but I don't think he will read it inasmuch as it will prove him wrong.
Facetiously yours,
Gabe
AES
Brett,
No, Paypal is not hiccuping. I never had any trouble from them. AES is doing it by their own admission.
No other place I purchase from does this, except gas stations and restaurants.
I suspect they are having financial troubles, personally.
Gabe
Brett,
No, Paypal is not hiccuping. I never had any trouble from them. AES is doing it by their own admission.
No other place I purchase from does this, except gas stations and restaurants.
I suspect they are having financial troubles, personally.
Gabe
Gabe, if you're done equating me to Hitler, I'd like to interrupt.
Let me just tell you all a true story, from my own experience BRETT, and then can we can put this topic to bed?
I do a bit of guitar amp tweaking and repair here in new york, mostly for friends. A friend of mine, who is a very intelligent guy (although he religiously reads "Guitar Player"😉), asked me one day to change all of the caps in his Deluxe Reverb reissue to paper-in-oils, and select resistors to carbon comps. I said sure, and gave him a price. The next day I called him and said to come over and listen to the results. Of course I hadn't so much as loosened a bolt on the thing. He played for a minute or so, and was EXSTATIC. It's so much more "responsive" he said, more "fluid and dynamic". He couldn't believe the difference. I finally told him that nothing had changed, and asked if he still wanted me to do the work? Guess what - he said yes!😕 He did not accept the reality of the situation, even when presented with the facts. My trick had not taught him anything, but it taught me a very important lesson - the brain can make the ears and the eyes see and hear things that simply aren't there. I don't think you need an engineering degree to understand that. There are dozens of other stories, especially from the dawn of the stereo age, listening tests, etc, that one could bring up, but as I said, neither side will be convinced so let it go.
Let me just tell you all a true story, from my own experience BRETT, and then can we can put this topic to bed?
I do a bit of guitar amp tweaking and repair here in new york, mostly for friends. A friend of mine, who is a very intelligent guy (although he religiously reads "Guitar Player"😉), asked me one day to change all of the caps in his Deluxe Reverb reissue to paper-in-oils, and select resistors to carbon comps. I said sure, and gave him a price. The next day I called him and said to come over and listen to the results. Of course I hadn't so much as loosened a bolt on the thing. He played for a minute or so, and was EXSTATIC. It's so much more "responsive" he said, more "fluid and dynamic". He couldn't believe the difference. I finally told him that nothing had changed, and asked if he still wanted me to do the work? Guess what - he said yes!😕 He did not accept the reality of the situation, even when presented with the facts. My trick had not taught him anything, but it taught me a very important lesson - the brain can make the ears and the eyes see and hear things that simply aren't there. I don't think you need an engineering degree to understand that. There are dozens of other stories, especially from the dawn of the stereo age, listening tests, etc, that one could bring up, but as I said, neither side will be convinced so let it go.
But WHY??? Its SO much fun, mein fuhrer!
Yes... I also have read and experienced such things. But... musicians are funny creatures.
I have read about two instances. One was the other woman of Fleetwood Mac (not Stevie Nicks) who listened to a remaster of one of her songs in the "super" CD. The article said how she broke down and cried. Do you suppose it was not as a result of the sound but as of the emotion she likely felt when singing the song originally?
Another spoke about a musician friend of his, who he played his amazing sound system for, then to be invited to this musician's home to listen to his particular CD excitedly... on a boom box!
Musicians tend to listen to the peformance, not the sound. It makes me crack up thinking about how Radio Shack used to use Arthur Feidler (Boston Pops Conductor) then his successor, as their sound quality spokesman. Their equipment sucked big time back then. I know, I used to work for them. RCA is a step above.
Gabe
Not surprisingly Gabe, you missed the point.
And I just knew that the "musicians don't hear the same way we do" comments would start rolling in once I posted that story.
And I just knew that the "musicians don't hear the same way we do" comments would start rolling in once I posted that story.
Don't you guys get it yet. He just likes to argue. He'll take any side just to argue about something. Don't play!
Bruce. Apparently you consider any kind of disagreement an "arugument". And, you feel that sticking to your guns on a subject is "liking to argue". Are you a child?
If we followed your ideals this would be a damn boring forum, no?
If we followed your ideals this would be a damn boring forum, no?
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