I don't see a contradiction at all.
As to being "elitist", that always seems to be the case when someone doesn't agree with you. If you look up the word you'll see that it actually does not apply at all. We, who are discussing this here, are not "elite" and we are completely willing to let anyone "in" who wants to be.
As to evaluating my speakers by listening I have almost never reported on such an event. I will post relavent reviews by others, but I will seldom post my own subjective comments. If you haven't noticed by now I stick to the strickly objective domain for my discussions. When I say that there aren't differences in the final systems because of component tollerences that is a purely objective assement - they simply don't measure any different. And since I use measurements as my basis for sound quality, if they don't measure different then they aren't different.
What is being claimed as the "subjective" importance of components has been debunked so many times that I don't think it worthwhile to discss it any more. The fact is that this audibility change would have to be proven to me, and it has not, before I am going to acknowledge that such a effect is an issue at all.
If being a "scientist" is being an "elitist" then I guess that I am, and I hope that everyone else would be too.
As to being "elitist", that always seems to be the case when someone doesn't agree with you. If you look up the word you'll see that it actually does not apply at all. We, who are discussing this here, are not "elite" and we are completely willing to let anyone "in" who wants to be.
As to evaluating my speakers by listening I have almost never reported on such an event. I will post relavent reviews by others, but I will seldom post my own subjective comments. If you haven't noticed by now I stick to the strickly objective domain for my discussions. When I say that there aren't differences in the final systems because of component tollerences that is a purely objective assement - they simply don't measure any different. And since I use measurements as my basis for sound quality, if they don't measure different then they aren't different.
What is being claimed as the "subjective" importance of components has been debunked so many times that I don't think it worthwhile to discss it any more. The fact is that this audibility change would have to be proven to me, and it has not, before I am going to acknowledge that such a effect is an issue at all.
If being a "scientist" is being an "elitist" then I guess that I am, and I hope that everyone else would be too.
Sploo
I recommend epoxy too. But the West system is just a brand, go to US Composites http://www.shopmaninc.com/. They have a great epoxy at a very reasonable price. Use a microballon or talc filler and you can make a paste which works very very well.
I recommend epoxy too. But the West system is just a brand, go to US Composites http://www.shopmaninc.com/. They have a great epoxy at a very reasonable price. Use a microballon or talc filler and you can make a paste which works very very well.
The easiest method is with a two channel spectrum analyzer. Just measure the voltage in and the voltage across a know resitor - I use 4 ohms and take the "cross-spectrum" of the two voltage with the input in the denominator. I use white noise and get a very clean transfer function.
There are, I believe, free software packages that will do this. Its worth learning how as its a critical measurement for debugging problems.
The only warning that I will give is to be careful that ground is truely the amps ground on both voltage measurements. I've blown up some amps making this mistake since it grounds the amps output if done wrong.
There are, I believe, free software packages that will do this. Its worth learning how as its a critical measurement for debugging problems.
The only warning that I will give is to be careful that ground is truely the amps ground on both voltage measurements. I've blown up some amps making this mistake since it grounds the amps output if done wrong.
gedlee said:
You can get epoxies which have been mixed for use as structural adhesives which are thixotropic so they'll stay put in gaps or holes, provide strong joints even if the parts don't touch, and cure with good flexibility to tolerate wood movement . I've been using System Three T-88; it's good enough for aerobatic wooden planes and should do fine for speakers which just sit there.
a.wayne said:
Sure, dont do that
Epoxy is plastic, sort of, not good fore sound, one should have as little as ever possible
Use polyurethane glue, the foamy stuff, its real good fore mounting components, and it can be undone again
But you are right, sound does often change when doing such things, and if optimal before, the rarely to the better
Reminds me of how many people have changed xo components in their commercial speakers, only to experience them being worse than ever...now dont you say that psycological too
gedlee said:
I would think so too
Thats why it really made me wonder that whenever I took just one or two turns of an aircoil it was clear that something went wrong...one channel didnt seem like it was really there, and ears at only one side began to hurt, really
I have experienced that over and over again
Whenever my ears hurt, I know something needs to be changed
Cant explain it, but its my reality
I know it sounds completely off, and you will probably say its spycological
But nonetheless it still seems to me at least, that some driver variation is independant of crossover function
Well, thats actually what you said yourself, isnt it
I know I sound waco, dont worry, I am
may I make a request, since I started this thread, that we avoid subjective discussions of parts sound quality. Especially with regard to sounding different but measuring the same, etc. It's not something that I would care to discuss here, and I feel it takes away from the point of this thread, which is to outline my build, as well as get some advice along the way when i run into issues here and there.
Matt
I completely agree.
Your queries about the components tollerances was a good idea though.
As to why I send out the components as opposed to letting the customer buy them is simply because I get a good deal on them. I can get them for a customer at a lot less than they would have to pay for them (usually). I make a little they save a little, what's not to like. Who loses is the supplier, but then they get a sale that they might not otherwise get. So its good for everybody.
But I could offer to send out "premium" grade parts, I have no problem with that if the customer wants to pay for them. It just seems like a waste of money to me since I don't see it making any difference. As I said the biggest difference that I see is that I measure everything that I build to insure that its right. Doing DIY to save a few bucks and then throwing it at expensive components (but not getting the speakers assembled and tested at the factory) does not seem like a good idea to me.
Just today I discovered that you can screw up mounting the foam plugs if you use too much glue - didn't know that before - do now - but only because I measured the speakers and saw that something was wrong. Then traced down the problem. Every time its something new. I don't think that I have ever seen the same problem twice.
I completely agree.
Your queries about the components tollerances was a good idea though.
As to why I send out the components as opposed to letting the customer buy them is simply because I get a good deal on them. I can get them for a customer at a lot less than they would have to pay for them (usually). I make a little they save a little, what's not to like. Who loses is the supplier, but then they get a sale that they might not otherwise get. So its good for everybody.
But I could offer to send out "premium" grade parts, I have no problem with that if the customer wants to pay for them. It just seems like a waste of money to me since I don't see it making any difference. As I said the biggest difference that I see is that I measure everything that I build to insure that its right. Doing DIY to save a few bucks and then throwing it at expensive components (but not getting the speakers assembled and tested at the factory) does not seem like a good idea to me.
Just today I discovered that you can screw up mounting the foam plugs if you use too much glue - didn't know that before - do now - but only because I measured the speakers and saw that something was wrong. Then traced down the problem. Every time its something new. I don't think that I have ever seen the same problem twice.
I have been arround audio for 40 years and I've never found expensive to be worth it. As anyone who's heard my system will attest I know how to do it right without spending a lot of money. Why waste money when it doesn't matter? This is one of my biggest pet pieves, that good sound is expensive, because its not really. When I tell people to spend 90% of their funds on the speakers, thats just wise. I would be a hypocrite if I endorsed high priced components that don't make any difference.
Have any of you guys consider or tried Unibond 800? It is similar in performance to Urea/Formaldehyde adhesives and really designed for veneer work (as well as Urea).
http://www.veneersystems.com/index.php/action/item/id/220/prevaction/pricelist/
Not a great gap filling glue but used successfully for complicated wood lamination as well as veneer work. It is in a way idiot prove in terms of mixing catalyst.
Very rigid glue joint. I use it for all my veneer work but it also performed great in solid wood to MDF joinery.
http://www.veneersystems.com/index.php/action/item/id/220/prevaction/pricelist/
Not a great gap filling glue but used successfully for complicated wood lamination as well as veneer work. It is in a way idiot prove in terms of mixing catalyst.
Very rigid glue joint. I use it for all my veneer work but it also performed great in solid wood to MDF joinery.
gedlee said:
Good man
But here's something that will make your blood boil:
http://www.noteworthyaudio.co.uk/diy/page17.html
How can those folks at Furutech sleep at night
I don't post much but thought I'd add in a little. I had a pair of the Abbey kits on order as well and I believe most of my Abbey parts arrived about the time Matt's did and had some damage to the front panel corners which sounds very similar.
I added a lot of oak to my cabinets as they seemed overly resonant. The side to side brace was ~3/4" square and was replaced with 2 pieces 2" x 3/4" oak, the same was used for the front/rear brace. The MDF cleats were also replaced with oak and I added a lot of 3/4" square oak stiffeners to the panels. No measurements but they seem much less resonant to a knuckle rap.
I built the crossovers on pegboard and screwed the peg board to the back panels. Two reasons, the primary being I wanted the components to be securely attached and I really didn't want everything just glued down. The peg board made it very easy to zip tie the parts down. The second reason was so I could easily remove them. For now they are unfinished and yes I know they need to be sealed and finished as soon as possible but it's just too cold to be priming/painting in the garage and I'm not using that in my basement. As I'm in Colorado, the humidity is very low and I keep my listening room at a constant temperature so there isn't really much moisture for them to absorb. I will try and get some primer on them soon tho and do a proper finish in the spring.
I just got them up and running this evening and so far all is well. I need to finish up the stands and get them off the floor. Currently the foam plugs are not installed pending more information from Earl. As he mentioned a few posts back there can be problems with the spray adhesive.
Mike
I added a lot of oak to my cabinets as they seemed overly resonant. The side to side brace was ~3/4" square and was replaced with 2 pieces 2" x 3/4" oak, the same was used for the front/rear brace. The MDF cleats were also replaced with oak and I added a lot of 3/4" square oak stiffeners to the panels. No measurements but they seem much less resonant to a knuckle rap.
I built the crossovers on pegboard and screwed the peg board to the back panels. Two reasons, the primary being I wanted the components to be securely attached and I really didn't want everything just glued down. The peg board made it very easy to zip tie the parts down. The second reason was so I could easily remove them. For now they are unfinished and yes I know they need to be sealed and finished as soon as possible but it's just too cold to be priming/painting in the garage and I'm not using that in my basement. As I'm in Colorado, the humidity is very low and I keep my listening room at a constant temperature so there isn't really much moisture for them to absorb. I will try and get some primer on them soon tho and do a proper finish in the spring.
I just got them up and running this evening and so far all is well. I need to finish up the stands and get them off the floor. Currently the foam plugs are not installed pending more information from Earl. As he mentioned a few posts back there can be problems with the spray adhesive.
Mike