BOB Katz "But the Dynaudio’s transients and microdynamics exceed that of the other phase-coherent speakers: Snare drums have the impact of real life, orchestral dynamics are stunning."
Well... I trusted his rave review about Lipinski monitors and I got a pair with sub. I didn't like them because they sound very soft and now he admit it! I don't trust his review anymore. LOL. 😀
camplo, I don't think we need the standardized perfect speakers/rooms designed by mastering engineers at least for three reasons.
Mastering environment has been diverse and personal in reality, while it is not as diverse as the end user's environment. I have had chances working with three different mastering engineers at Sterling Sound. I find their room, their set up, their playback level (loudness) are very different each other, and I don't think they feel that they need to standardize their listening environment. Why? Because they can tell how the end products will sound just listening music through their own personalized mastering system. They know what they are doing. No confusion there. Considering the most commercial releases have been surprisingly consistent (well, arguably), I don't see any issue with current professional mastering environment. I don't think we have a right to insist them to listen to music at a standard monitoring level with standard speakers in a standard room. They are humans, and they have different preferences and aesthetics as we do. Imagine a government standardizes a speaker in that country, and all the recordings are mastered with this particular speaker in a particular way. In that situation, mastering probably should be certified by AI, not by humans. Do we want that?
Regarding consumer side, it seems that not a small numbers of audiophiles are searching "technical correct" speakers, and I do not against them as long as it is their true preference for the accuracy based on their own experiences, but I sometimes smell that this kind of objectivist's claim is from one who is trying to justify their lack of confidence about his ears, and/or whose current room or equipments are simply very unsatisfying, and/or who has never experienced very accurate speakers in a good room. They are just confused. Giving them a perfect speaker may solve their mental issues, but that's it. Actually, we already have nearly perfect speakers certified by mastering professionals, such as B&W and Dynaudio, but everyone wants them? No, those nearly perfect speakers are just one of the many choices. Strangely, it seems that more perfect speakers on the market, more boost the value of many imperfect speakers like Tannoy, Altec, WE. I wonder how can we explain this.
Room. It can't be perfect anyway. Since rooms are all different, perfect speakers can't be the same practically. For more than 10 years, I have two audio sets in two different rooms, one is dead, and one is live. Which I like, or which is the correct environment to listen to music? Difficult question... My preference is depends on what and how I want to listen to. It's all about media theory, not about audio science in my opinion.
Mastering environment has been diverse and personal in reality, while it is not as diverse as the end user's environment. I have had chances working with three different mastering engineers at Sterling Sound. I find their room, their set up, their playback level (loudness) are very different each other, and I don't think they feel that they need to standardize their listening environment. Why? Because they can tell how the end products will sound just listening music through their own personalized mastering system. They know what they are doing. No confusion there. Considering the most commercial releases have been surprisingly consistent (well, arguably), I don't see any issue with current professional mastering environment. I don't think we have a right to insist them to listen to music at a standard monitoring level with standard speakers in a standard room. They are humans, and they have different preferences and aesthetics as we do. Imagine a government standardizes a speaker in that country, and all the recordings are mastered with this particular speaker in a particular way. In that situation, mastering probably should be certified by AI, not by humans. Do we want that?
Regarding consumer side, it seems that not a small numbers of audiophiles are searching "technical correct" speakers, and I do not against them as long as it is their true preference for the accuracy based on their own experiences, but I sometimes smell that this kind of objectivist's claim is from one who is trying to justify their lack of confidence about his ears, and/or whose current room or equipments are simply very unsatisfying, and/or who has never experienced very accurate speakers in a good room. They are just confused. Giving them a perfect speaker may solve their mental issues, but that's it. Actually, we already have nearly perfect speakers certified by mastering professionals, such as B&W and Dynaudio, but everyone wants them? No, those nearly perfect speakers are just one of the many choices. Strangely, it seems that more perfect speakers on the market, more boost the value of many imperfect speakers like Tannoy, Altec, WE. I wonder how can we explain this.
Room. It can't be perfect anyway. Since rooms are all different, perfect speakers can't be the same practically. For more than 10 years, I have two audio sets in two different rooms, one is dead, and one is live. Which I like, or which is the correct environment to listen to music? Difficult question... My preference is depends on what and how I want to listen to. It's all about media theory, not about audio science in my opinion.
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I think plasnu's post above is spot on, the brilliance of the best mix and mastering engineers is their ability to make great sound, a familiarity with the system they are using is what helps them get there. There is no requirement for them to have perfect equipment, great work can be done without it and has been for a long time.
Putting any group up on a pedestal is a bad idea as there can be wide ranging abilities within that group.
If Mastering Engineers were the right people to design loudspeakers they already would be. If they feel their work could be improved by designing their own speakers why are they not already doing it?
Probably for the same reason that professionals use other professionals, they recognize when they are the right person to do the job.
Some of the recent comments from Earl Geddes and Floyd Toole in books and forums have shown that their thoughts are not really so far from each other and that much of the differences made between them could be put down to internet misunderstanding and repetition.
Earl Geddes has been clear that he prefers studio productions and is interested in imaging placement. He gets this to his liking from reducing early reflections with narrower directivity.
Toole seems to have a greater interest in orchestral and classical himself and this type of music is much more tolerant of a greater level of reflected energy. He has also introduced curtains in his own room to damp down side reflections when he deems it beneficial.
There is far more in common in their writings than discord. I think common ground is the stuff that people should really pay attention to. When a bunch of smart, well educated and experienced people agree on something it's time to listen.
Putting any group up on a pedestal is a bad idea as there can be wide ranging abilities within that group.
If Mastering Engineers were the right people to design loudspeakers they already would be. If they feel their work could be improved by designing their own speakers why are they not already doing it?
Probably for the same reason that professionals use other professionals, they recognize when they are the right person to do the job.
Some of the recent comments from Earl Geddes and Floyd Toole in books and forums have shown that their thoughts are not really so far from each other and that much of the differences made between them could be put down to internet misunderstanding and repetition.
Earl Geddes has been clear that he prefers studio productions and is interested in imaging placement. He gets this to his liking from reducing early reflections with narrower directivity.
Toole seems to have a greater interest in orchestral and classical himself and this type of music is much more tolerant of a greater level of reflected energy. He has also introduced curtains in his own room to damp down side reflections when he deems it beneficial.
There is far more in common in their writings than discord. I think common ground is the stuff that people should really pay attention to. When a bunch of smart, well educated and experienced people agree on something it's time to listen.
i often think music in films sounds superior to music on albums, i can only think that there is more quality control in movie making then it is in music making
i think it would be good if the music industry introduced rules and standards for playback
i think it would be good if the music industry introduced rules and standards for playback
Bob Katz is one of many people (ie you guys) who its nice to converse with on this topic. I
..just picked his name to make a point, I am not exactly stalking Bob Katz and know all of his things...I do know that I like some of what I hear from him...the loudspeaker designer side of me, whatever thats worth. He has very good application technique in the use of his loudspeaker system. I can't wait to find more Engineers to speculate, if you have any suggestions, I'm all ears. Better yet, invite them to the conversation.
..just picked his name to make a point, I am not exactly stalking Bob Katz and know all of his things...I do know that I like some of what I hear from him...the loudspeaker designer side of me, whatever thats worth. He has very good application technique in the use of his loudspeaker system. I can't wait to find more Engineers to speculate, if you have any suggestions, I'm all ears. Better yet, invite them to the conversation.
- Facts....a standard has been set, in so many ways, but the uniqueness of each person gear/room/ideas/goals varies.
- Proof that Mastering Engineers know a lot about rooms and loudspeakers and human hearing....
- Very Interesting. I have said before that I don't need perfect loudspeakers to master, but this is only because of my skill and knowledge of what I am hearing or seeing among other techniques used to hedge the bets in our favor in the lack of "the perfect mastering studio experience"....you learn how to manipulate the signal in order to cause it to expose itself in the lack of being able to trust your ears other wise.....that says something. I haven't been there...but I feel the in some the best mastering studios, the time it takes to finish work is of greater efficacy than one lacking in SQ.....So now we have to consider that something can be done on imperfect means...but it takes longer. So you haven't really proved a point to some kind of irrelevance in advancement. I'm a future forward thinker. If the consumer base is becoming a better critical listener and their choice of equipment moves to reflect, it will only move to reveal the quality of the production. As technique and implications advance (3d sound, new ideas) they become increasingly involving to tender, putting an ever increasing reliance on products that reduce work time. The better the speaker the easier and faster the work. How does this play into the trend you describe above...it doesn't...B&W and Dynaudio are very popular last time I checked...the B&W's are go to's...they come across as almost a standard or "the bar". I think what you describe deserves more investigation. The Dutch and Dutch and Kii Audio seem to be getting attention...I seen someone selling his ATC's with the holy grail dome mid range for one of them...he claimed the ATC's made him work longer because it was too revealing...thats an interesting concept. That could mean a lot of things. Subjectivity, don't got time for it. So lets re-access
- Speakers that fix room issues, isn't that what the Dutch and Dutch tries to do? I definitely don't have all the answers. It kinda sounds like bending rules vs not? You never had a drink at work before? Guilty pleasures bro...work is work...the extremes of analytical can be boring? Just throwing out ideas.
- I am, and we are...I didn't probe on that topic because after interacting with the group long enough I could tell that a good amount of the people where building their own systems. It wasn't everyone...but some of them where, and trying to sell their products as well lol. I found an agreeance that the act of learning loudspeaker design made them a better mastering engineer...I'm trying to get the loudspeaker engineer to see that learning mastering will make him a better loudspeaker designer. That doesn't suggest that one is better than the other...that suggest that these task are connected on a deep level. Stay away from the mix engineers lol. This is my analysis of interacting with different groups in the last 2 yrs, which because of the internet connections and interactions are vast. So its not as scientific as it could be but I have read somewhere between an associates and a bachelors degree worth of psychology books lol, profiling people is kinda my thing.
- Exactly why I hope this thread generates some interaction between these too groups. At least here, If I bring up an issue it is already understood that it has to be held to Mastering standards.
I literally made the comment 11 years ago, "I want that movie, big, sound" or with better English, I want my music quality, on a sound engineering level, to be in comparison to that of which I hear in movies...I obviously agree with your statement, and if a higher standard of consistent practice and better practice is a reflection of this quality then lets expose what it is....Movie money is bigger than music money, its no surprise that the quality reaches higher heights there. Lets expose what this really means.
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plasnu and fluid nailed the issue perfectly!
Good enough understanding of basic principles of technology, avoiding stupid faults in setting up the room and personal preference. It just takes some time to gain knowledge and experience, added with controlled/measured reference give you confidence to be happy with your personla preference. Me too have 2-3 different hifi sets with different sound. None of them is "perfect" and allround best!
When looking at pictures of mastering/control rooms, I've noticed that most of them use nearfield monitoring at single spot, which is obviously good choice for the job.But at home most people want more a more lively room and good sound for several seats/locations.
Good enough understanding of basic principles of technology, avoiding stupid faults in setting up the room and personal preference. It just takes some time to gain knowledge and experience, added with controlled/measured reference give you confidence to be happy with your personla preference. Me too have 2-3 different hifi sets with different sound. None of them is "perfect" and allround best!
When looking at pictures of mastering/control rooms, I've noticed that most of them use nearfield monitoring at single spot, which is obviously good choice for the job.But at home most people want more a more lively room and good sound for several seats/locations.
+1 on this. I often wonder why music in films on Blu Ray sounds so much better than most of my 2ch collection. I can only assume as you say, that movies are mixed to a certain standard and actually still have some dynamics left as compared to most modern CD's/albums!
You certainly have a flair for the provocative, but given the level of arrogance you have attributed to mastering engineers in this thread alone I find it unlikely that many of them would like to be associated with it.
If your aim is to bring highly skilled professionals together and get them to productive discussion this does not seem the best approach.
Mastering engineers? Meh.
A muso friend with (then) 30 years in the industry sent me a pre-release pressing of his latest CD in the 90's. Of 50 copies thus distributed, I was one of only two people to hear that the balance was completely off. He got the mastering engineer to call me, because the guy couldn't hear the problem.
I simply told him to pull out all the bass below 300 Hz, at which time it became bleeding obvious that all the top end was in the right channel. They got back to the pressing plant in Asia and it resulted in their needing to completely realign the CD mastering system.
Now this tape mastering engineer is one of the best known in Melbourne, and has a huge reputation. So I have to ask myself, was he just having a bad day (or actually two, since he initially missed it himself)?
And don't get me started about the clowns who f*cked up a vinyl record master so badly that one channel was clipped beyond belief 10 years earlier. It hurt because I'd paid for the recording, made by a delightful but impecunious female artist whose music I happened to like. Although to be fair, that was probably a quality control issue rather than the result of cloth ears.
A muso friend with (then) 30 years in the industry sent me a pre-release pressing of his latest CD in the 90's. Of 50 copies thus distributed, I was one of only two people to hear that the balance was completely off. He got the mastering engineer to call me, because the guy couldn't hear the problem.
I simply told him to pull out all the bass below 300 Hz, at which time it became bleeding obvious that all the top end was in the right channel. They got back to the pressing plant in Asia and it resulted in their needing to completely realign the CD mastering system.
Now this tape mastering engineer is one of the best known in Melbourne, and has a huge reputation. So I have to ask myself, was he just having a bad day (or actually two, since he initially missed it himself)?
And don't get me started about the clowns who f*cked up a vinyl record master so badly that one channel was clipped beyond belief 10 years earlier. It hurt because I'd paid for the recording, made by a delightful but impecunious female artist whose music I happened to like. Although to be fair, that was probably a quality control issue rather than the result of cloth ears.
Mastering engineers? Meh.
Or, the guy had already a looooot of work and decided it was time for the assistant to cut his teeth on a somewhat less 'problematic client' with which it could be more simple to deal with in case of issue...
Not that everybody does this kind of things but... i faced that kind of issue with (a famous English) mixer and be asked to do that kind of thing when i was an assistant.
From what you describe the assistant probably forgot he applied an M/S treatment and forgot to insert the invert processing to revert to L/R... then there was a bla bla bla about the next step, 'you know this is the factory in charge of pressing cd....'. Digital being digital once the master 'cd' or more likely DDP is done there is ( almost) no chance an issue happen in factory!
I understand your not happy about that but sh.t happen! Here again when not involved in the loop it is very difficult to know what happened and it is unlikely quality control was missed by mastering engineer as THIS IS what it'is all about ( not to do 'pre master' : audio treatment, this happened to be the most important part of the job since loudness war but it's not the primary concern of M.E. in the 'traditional' way).
To be honest i don't buy digital format anymore as they are to much processed to my taste so i only spend money on vinyl this days... and last purchase was just a joke: i selected a reference, buy it, brought it in house to play it and... surprise! There was a 'blob' of dirt inlaid in one of the face. Got back to the shop, got it exchanged but decided to open it in front of the owner: same thing! One more time...same thing!!! Wtf?! 'Bad series cut!' Got answered...
'Well no, probably well cut but bad pressing, i know i was involved in the industry'.
The pressing plant are Olllllddd and not maintened anymore ( remember this media should had disapear some years ago) you can't find spare and knowledge have been lost....
And with revival most plant are submerged.... which leave small labels which kept the format alive ( for dj and passionate) doesn't have access to pressing plant as Major decided to buy the few existing ones... this is the industry at it's best!
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A mastering engineer is like the designer at JBL who is responsible for voicing choices...a mastering engineer would have claimed to be worthy of a position like Floyde at JBL, representing instead Sony or what have you... theres some prestige that comes with being in that seat, at a pro level. Not my *** in the basement but....you get my drift. Its not arrogance.
All responses valid. We already have some Mastering Engineers here, and if I misrepresent them they can call me on it. I'm trying to generalize things that are hard to do so. Its a process.
We have not veered away from what I suggest, a loudspeaker designer and mastering engineer....yes. Haiqu vs Mastering Engineer, they are worthy of critiquing each others work. This will not change!
All responses valid. We already have some Mastering Engineers here, and if I misrepresent them they can call me on it. I'm trying to generalize things that are hard to do so. Its a process.
We have not veered away from what I suggest, a loudspeaker designer and mastering engineer....yes. Haiqu vs Mastering Engineer, they are worthy of critiquing each others work. This will not change!
Camplo,
The more defects revealed, the more problems to fix…
As you learn more about properties and limitations of different speaker (and microphone) designs, DSP, and room acoustics, that knowledge may help you better understand some of the causes of the problems in recordings you are attempting to “fix” as a mastering engineer, making you a “better” engineer.
A loudspeaker engineer designing for all aspects of accurate reproduction of recorded media at whatever level required should have knowledge of the media, different speaker designs, DSP, and room acoustics. “Learning mastering” won’t affect that design process, unless designing for a specific mastering engineer’s request.
Art
- I have to disagree respectfully. If I am going to build you something....for a task I cannot do myself....makes literally no sense.
If I'm building dirt bikes for Evel Knievel, yeah I get it...I'm not jumping over the grand canyon....but who on gods green earth trust a dirt bike designer who doesn't ride dirt bikes?
humm i wonder if designers at Boeing are all required to have pilot's licenses... but i get it, it would sure would help quality control....
not likely in the real world though...
not likely in the real world though...
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Turk, Cinema, big money cinema, sure seems to have it going on.
I have pics of peoples rooms that I found interesting, I kept them to have a flavor of what some people are doing in 2020....well this was 2019, but you get the picture. A lot of these are obviously home studios.
I have pics of peoples rooms that I found interesting, I kept them to have a flavor of what some people are doing in 2020....well this was 2019, but you get the picture. A lot of these are obviously home studios.
