salas said:Oh my God! Are they really DIY? How can they be? DIY speakers are for the fireplace! They cant possibly be! No its an illusion...How did I crave after DIY? Me? me?....Now you ring a bell...Oh that Shin something English guy that I was suggesting some curves to his thread...That concussion really messed me up!
I must have royally misread your post - I think I was too caught up in what Limono said to see what you were really saying. My bad - apologies.
And now back to our regularly scheduled thread...
Salas
Splendid, Exactly what I was talking about (auto paint shop probably charged a little bit) Regardless the sound , paint job and general ahem "look" might impress some trendy people .The fact that you're constantly bringing up those digital crossovers makes me think little about sonic value. Sorry folks I didn't know you're so sensitive .
The fact that I didn't hear good DIY speakers should not offend you should it ?
I'm positive that you can't clone the sound of Magico speakers (but of course you can clone the design ) Well, if you think you can , good luck . After all, not you but this poor guy will be spending all the money on drivers and cabinets . And lastly I've always wanted to have Harbeth speakers .They all look like $300 but I'm willing to pay $500 for a true to original clone of their most ambitious project. It should be trivial comparing to Magico -any takers.
Splendid, Exactly what I was talking about (auto paint shop probably charged a little bit) Regardless the sound , paint job and general ahem "look" might impress some trendy people .The fact that you're constantly bringing up those digital crossovers makes me think little about sonic value. Sorry folks I didn't know you're so sensitive .
The fact that I didn't hear good DIY speakers should not offend you should it ?
I'm positive that you can't clone the sound of Magico speakers (but of course you can clone the design ) Well, if you think you can , good luck . After all, not you but this poor guy will be spending all the money on drivers and cabinets . And lastly I've always wanted to have Harbeth speakers .They all look like $300 but I'm willing to pay $500 for a true to original clone of their most ambitious project. It should be trivial comparing to Magico -any takers.
limono said:
Shin painted it in his backyard, he has even posted videos.
Cloning as a popular term in DIY is about nearing a design mainly aesthetically and not exactly replicating. I personally don't like to 'clone' but to create from my own head. Harbeth has proprietary cone material, nice trap. But Magico mini has an available set of drivers.....
What insensitive comments??
Why you can't clone the sound of Magico Mini ? Because:
1) You won't be able to replicate cabinets 100% and don't tell me you will.
2) I doubt that drivers are off the shelf (I'm almost sure they are not )
3) Crossover and wire need to be exactly identical (tricky but doable for an insider )
Now , I may agree that the effect of your collective effort will sound OK! or for the original poster close enough to justify expense (although there is a chance of an expensive turd in a garage ) but it almost certainly won't sound just like original. You can't be that naive.
OT While I love to clone I don't call it DIY but SIY (steal it yourself ) because I'm taking it from rich and giving to poor (meaning myself ;0)
Salas -I'll talk to Alan Shaw and buy those proprietary woofers for you , I think he"ll be amused (with all those BBC thieves along the way ) and willing to cooperate . Still interested in cloning Harbeths ??
Lets guestimate retail price of $20K Magico
The cabinets are pretty elaborate and labor intensive .I estimate $3k for the shop . Drivers probably $2k (??? I don't really know )
Crossover , cables $1k??? so lets say total $6K .because of exclusivity of product and almost on order production 100% manufacturer markup is not out of hand so its $12k .AFAIK retail ads 100% -$20k +price easy . Don't forget all those reviewing ****** who need to be bribed , magazine ads , review samples . No wonder that Magico guy said that he is selling them cheap .
Why you can't clone the sound of Magico Mini ? Because:
1) You won't be able to replicate cabinets 100% and don't tell me you will.
2) I doubt that drivers are off the shelf (I'm almost sure they are not )
3) Crossover and wire need to be exactly identical (tricky but doable for an insider )
Now , I may agree that the effect of your collective effort will sound OK! or for the original poster close enough to justify expense (although there is a chance of an expensive turd in a garage ) but it almost certainly won't sound just like original. You can't be that naive.
OT While I love to clone I don't call it DIY but SIY (steal it yourself ) because I'm taking it from rich and giving to poor (meaning myself ;0)
Salas -I'll talk to Alan Shaw and buy those proprietary woofers for you , I think he"ll be amused (with all those BBC thieves along the way ) and willing to cooperate . Still interested in cloning Harbeths ??
Lets guestimate retail price of $20K Magico
The cabinets are pretty elaborate and labor intensive .I estimate $3k for the shop . Drivers probably $2k (??? I don't really know )
Crossover , cables $1k??? so lets say total $6K .because of exclusivity of product and almost on order production 100% manufacturer markup is not out of hand so its $12k .AFAIK retail ads 100% -$20k +price easy . Don't forget all those reviewing ****** who need to be bribed , magazine ads , review samples . No wonder that Magico guy said that he is selling them cheap .
"What insensitive comments??"
They've only been pointed out to you three or four times, and I'm not the only person who objected to them - read Post #24.
"Why you can't clone the sound of Magico Mini? Because:
1) You won't be able to replicate cabinets 100% and don't tell me you will." HOW do you know? And don't tell you I will? I really don't know, and neither do you.
"2) I doubt that drivers are off the shelf (I'm almost sure they are not)" Almost sure - maybe you should BE sure.
"3) Crossover and wire need to be exactly identical (tricky but doable for an insider)" Crossover design and component values do need to be identical - I've already said that - if you know these things you can build it.
ANY speaker can be cloned - if you know enough about it. People get the info - it's not impossible. If the drivers are indeed proprietarily modified the finished product may sound different, but not necessarily better.
"You can't be that naive." I'm not, and I'm not that rude or caustic either. The naive person is the one who declares something to be impossible as if it were an established fact - you seem to know a lot more about what can't be done than what can.
They've only been pointed out to you three or four times, and I'm not the only person who objected to them - read Post #24.
"Why you can't clone the sound of Magico Mini? Because:
1) You won't be able to replicate cabinets 100% and don't tell me you will." HOW do you know? And don't tell you I will? I really don't know, and neither do you.
"2) I doubt that drivers are off the shelf (I'm almost sure they are not)" Almost sure - maybe you should BE sure.
"3) Crossover and wire need to be exactly identical (tricky but doable for an insider)" Crossover design and component values do need to be identical - I've already said that - if you know these things you can build it.
ANY speaker can be cloned - if you know enough about it. People get the info - it's not impossible. If the drivers are indeed proprietarily modified the finished product may sound different, but not necessarily better.
"You can't be that naive." I'm not, and I'm not that rude or caustic either. The naive person is the one who declares something to be impossible as if it were an established fact - you seem to know a lot more about what can't be done than what can.
limono said:
methinks you are over-estimating the cab cost !!
Similar cabinets have been built for way less than that using the same high quality birch ply on a one off basis. If done on a larger scale, the cost would be greatly reduced further.
The cabs are NOT labour intensive if you have a CNC or similar, nor are they especially elaborate, and certainly are not innovative !! I know several DIY guys who were doing that type of cabinet many years ago. It is nice to see commercial guys starting to copy us !!!
Jay, you're right.
Saltuk if you're still here - buy the drivers, build the cabinets, then send the whole thing off to someone like Zaph to design the crossovers for you.
I'm serious - this is probably the best way to go. Maybe a "knock-off" rather than a clone, but you'll end up with a darn good speaker.
Saltuk if you're still here - buy the drivers, build the cabinets, then send the whole thing off to someone like Zaph to design the crossovers for you.
I'm serious - this is probably the best way to go. Maybe a "knock-off" rather than a clone, but you'll end up with a darn good speaker.
Yeah Saltuk
Send it to Zaph .If you won't like the result you can send them to San Diego. Don't build cabinets yourself -guys in Australia work for bowl of rice they will build them for you for a six-pack (but you will have to pay shipping thou-bummer ) .Yes I agree .I'm rude and caustic ,I forgot that It is Saltuk who will be spending all the money not me .I relieve all of you and excuse myself from this thread from now .
One more note to Salas and his spectacular speaker and fireplace. My understanding is that 20 prototypes of his monster ended up in fireplace during months of evaluation and this is 21-st incarnation and final products of months of refinement right?? You did not (like almost all if not all DIY speakers ) "hit the nail' on the first take ??
Forget Harbeths, -we both know why Regards, L
Send it to Zaph .If you won't like the result you can send them to San Diego. Don't build cabinets yourself -guys in Australia work for bowl of rice they will build them for you for a six-pack (but you will have to pay shipping thou-bummer ) .Yes I agree .I'm rude and caustic ,I forgot that It is Saltuk who will be spending all the money not me .I relieve all of you and excuse myself from this thread from now .
One more note to Salas and his spectacular speaker and fireplace. My understanding is that 20 prototypes of his monster ended up in fireplace during months of evaluation and this is 21-st incarnation and final products of months of refinement right?? You did not (like almost all if not all DIY speakers ) "hit the nail' on the first take ??
Forget Harbeths, -we both know why
Regards, L
And without a doubt, there are DIY x-o guys who could get very close or even better in the way of cross-overs. The drivers would be the only issue. The tweeter, just use the new SS, and whatever is closest in the way of mid/woofs
I would estimate for around the $2000-3000 mark a selected DIY group working together could get very very close !!
But why bother copying something that has been done before ;-))
I would estimate for around the $2000-3000 mark a selected DIY group working together could get very very close !!
But why bother copying something that has been done before ;-))
@ackcheng that is great information , thanks alot.
About the cabinet, I am an architect and work with some of the best wood workers in my country . With all the information given in this thread , I am pretty sure I can get the cabinets done and it will cost me nomoney.
I believe the drivers are not modified (magico changed the woofer after the ATD drivers started to show up in other brands, that is a sign of it)
The key point is the crossover , not the brand they used for the parts but the way they built it. And the baffle will be hard to make from a billet of aluminum .
Salas at first I listened to them in moderetely low (for at least 30min.) level and the microdetails was almost as good as my Stax Omega headphones (they were the best I ever heard on a speaker)
By the way I have found a used Miniv1 at Audiogon , and will be contacting the seller for a deal now.
About the cabinet, I am an architect and work with some of the best wood workers in my country . With all the information given in this thread , I am pretty sure I can get the cabinets done and it will cost me nomoney.
I believe the drivers are not modified (magico changed the woofer after the ATD drivers started to show up in other brands, that is a sign of it)
The key point is the crossover , not the brand they used for the parts but the way they built it. And the baffle will be hard to make from a billet of aluminum .
Salas at first I listened to them in moderetely low (for at least 30min.) level and the microdetails was almost as good as my Stax Omega headphones (they were the best I ever heard on a speaker)
By the way I have found a used Miniv1 at Audiogon , and will be contacting the seller for a deal now.
to be honest, I'm always a little wary of claims of 'modified drivers'.... fo course they would have to say that.
If I look in a catalog and see a scanspeak tweeter for example, see what I could buy it for, and compare with the (often) outrageous prices being asked, no wonder I begin to wonder.
From that perspective it does make sense to claim the driver I could buy is somehow different from the one used, and further to claim that the modifications are HUGE!! meaning I could in no way duplicate the outstanding performance.
Hmmm, just how different can they be??
And if they are significantly different, well, so is the price I pay!
If I look in a catalog and see a scanspeak tweeter for example, see what I could buy it for, and compare with the (often) outrageous prices being asked, no wonder I begin to wonder.
From that perspective it does make sense to claim the driver I could buy is somehow different from the one used, and further to claim that the modifications are HUGE!! meaning I could in no way duplicate the outstanding performance.
Hmmm, just how different can they be??
And if they are significantly different, well, so is the price I pay!
limono said:Yeah Saltuk
One more note to Salas and his spectacular speaker and fireplace. My understanding is that 20 prototypes of his monster ended up in fireplace during months of evaluation and this is 21-st incarnation and final products of months of refinement right?? You did not (like almost all if not all DIY speakers ) "hit the nail' on the first take ??
Forget Harbeths, -we both know why
limono, beyond humor, you are posting whatever. I am not ShinOBIWAN. That speaker is well documented here, and is not made after 20 iterations. Its made on knowledge, not hit or miss. It sports top collaboration from England, Scandinavia, Germany and Serbia. Happy coincidence has it that its cone drivers ARE custom ordered and that is well documented. Magico can't claim the same.
The difficulty and magic of making a model is marketing for the industry, not for this forum. As for Harbeth, its a no bull company that I respect, because it has history, clear design agenda, elaborate woodwork and voicing, and really custom cones. Plus their pricing is logical considering the chain it has to feed. They skimp on crossover parts quality, but this is acceptable since they need very complex circuits, but they tune their losses well and don't target exorbitant price tags. I have personal experience with their products and I have recommended them to some non DIY friends as value purchases, just because I did not have the spare time to make something for them. In other words they compromised.In the following pics you can see a Harbeth Super HL5 pair in my friend's living room (sorry for the low res, its from my old cellphone) and their FR plot that I measured at his listening position with both speakers driven. His comments are: ''Well, it doesn't sound as live as your stuff but at least it has tonal balance near yours, except its treble that is overcooked''. We know what you are talking about here...Do you know what we are talking about? After all, Harbeth's Allan and Dave Wilson didn't make their first stuff after they had a company. They used to DIY. As the most of the rest celebrated designers you consider of ET knowledge standards compared to us cheeky DIY ers.
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limono said:
Recommended retail is normally 3X the export price list for the 'High-End' industry. 'High-End' cable recommended retail is usually 5X the export price list. The costs and mark ups for the manufacturers vary widely. Around 2X is normal. The big lost are the maker and the purchaser, as is the norm in any industry dominated by go betweens.
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