Magico Mini

Saltuk

Member
2006-01-16 12:11 am
Home
Greetings from Istanbul / Turkey,

I was in the search for a new loudspeaker to replace my beloved Thiel CS 1.6.
And I arranged several demos on various dealers (6 demos in 2 days)
I auditioned ,

1- Wilson sophia-2 with accuphase gear
2- Sonus Faber Stradivari Homage with full Gryphon gear
3- Wilson watt/puppy7 with krell gear
4- B&W 802D with Classe gear
5- Verity Audio speakers with Gamut amp and vincent cdp
6- Magico Mini v1 with 110w Cary monoblocks+preamp and a Cayin CDP

All demos took place in perfectly designed rooms with little acoustic treatments, all the systems were geared with cables known as best of the best.

During those listening sessions I was not drunk and I am not deaf to good sound:clown:

Here are what I heard:
1- W. Sophias was good in treble a little bit weak on mid. and quite dry on bass , the sound stage was only between the speakers and there was no depth in the image , only left right positioning of vocals or instruments.

2- the Sonus Faber had a better imaging than sophias but the bass was not fast and refined so it ruined the whole package.

3- Watt/puppy was stronger in bass but it was overwhelming and imaging wasn't that better than sophias but closer to Sonus Faber.

4- B&W 802D was the worst of all the six , seriously problematic bass , very narrow soundstage and the lack of microdynamics(I was expecting very good sound from 802Ds , it was really sad)

5- Verity was nearly the same as W.A. sophias maybe a little better bass and imaging

6- And finally the Magico Mini V1 , they were shockingly good . Best 3d sound I have ever heard, these speakers simply disappeared. the highs, the mids, the extremely well controlled fast and precise bass. I have heard deeper bass but never heard one that good (quite suprised to hear that level of bass from 7" drivers ) they had the most detailed sound of the weekend and actually best loudspeaker I have ever listened to.

After I came back home I googled the Magico minis and found this thread http://forums.avguide.com/viewtopic.php?t=3156
please take a look at the FR graph !

I can not afford a 20000k plus loudspeaker, what I wonder is :

Ýs a loudspeaker really the sum of its parts?

Or the Magico Mini has some real magic in it :)

In long term I am planning to do a magico mini clone myself;

I know the mini has a sealed enclosure made of laminated birchwood ( I believe can get this done )

it uses R2904/7000-00 Ring Radiator as a tweeter from scan-peak.

And the Mini V1 uses ATD-18W4004 7" Titanium sandwich mid/woofer (in Magico mini V2 it is now replaced by a new Nano-Tec drivers that use carbon nanotubes in their cone construction which is said to get the mini a good 5hz lower bass with the V1 bass qualities )

the crossover unit is built with Mundorf stuff, and I have absolutely no idieas on building crossovers.

Bottom line , I heartly recommend everyone to listen to a Magico Mini
if they can , and I believe it will be a great project to begin for many .

Any suggestions on cabinet building, crossover projects and driver alternatives are very welcome.
If it had been done before please give me the links

For example how will Accuton C12-6 + C92-6 drivers with the crossover from a diy project work?
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cup-a-Soup.html

Here are a couple of photos.(the last one was taken by me in the demo room with a cell phone)




[IMGDEAD]http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/5937/dsc0111ua6.jpg[/IMGDEAD][IMGDEAD]http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/9326/balticbirchtq3.jpg[/IMGDEAD] [IMGDEAD]http://img111.imageshack.us/img111/8602/stripdetail2dn9.jpg[/IMGDEAD][IMGDEAD]http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/2672/capture004144copyap0.jpg[/IMGDEAD][IMGDEAD]http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/1209/magicomini03np8.jpg[/IMGDEAD][IMGDEAD]http://img236.imageshack.us/img236/9404/spa0552ei4.jpg[/IMGDEAD]
 

Salas

diyAudio Chief Moderator
Paid Member
2002-10-08 11:31 am
Athens-Greece
Greetings to you too. :wave:

Don't underestimate the fact that you listened to the Mini through good tube gear, when comparing. Also small have advantages in non adequate spaces for big. Better audition again in different and comparable systems & demo rooms before you dedicate to clone, IMHO.
The Mini is Lynn Olson's reference paradigm of bull in the luxury speaker business by the way.
 

ScottG

Member
2003-02-04 12:23 am
US
The Scan Speak tweeter is bettered by the newer (though less costly) 7100 (which can be found in designs by Hansen and Rockport). Its available from several sources including Madisound.

The woofer is pretty much a one-of-a-kind. It can be purchased from e-speakers.com.

Mundorf parts can be purchased though many different suppliers.

As to the cabinet - well its sealed and I'm sure you can estimate the volume. The layered construction is also pretty obvious from the pictures. The baffle itself can be bettered with cement.

Given some time, effort, serious thought/planning (and of course the cash) - nothing terribly difficult to build.
 
"Ýs a loudspeaker really the sum of its parts?

Or the Magico Mini has some real magic in it "

I know your question is somewhat tongue-in-cheek, but yes loudspeakers are the sum of their parts, and no there is no magic, ever - remember - every component was designed and engineered by humans.

The Mini might be a speaker worthy of cloning - it certainly utilizes top notch drivers - but remember to CLONE it rather than imitate it; that means the same cabinet, same drivers, and same crossover - you need a schematic of the crossover to do this, and perhaps someone here has one. You need to use the same component layout and values, etc., but not necessarily the same brands - crossover components are one area you can save money on - this is a hotly debated topic, so this is my opinion, and many people will spend top dollar on crossover components because they've done so on everything else - hard to argue with that if one has the means.

Now, having said this, there are probably many DIY designers out there who would take the same drivers used in the Mini and come up with a different design, usually in the crossover - you will see this often in this community - and the solutions can often be superior to their commercial counterparts.

As for Tony's Cup-a-Soup - build it exactly as he has designed it, especially the crossover - deviating from a proven design, unless done by another expert designer, usually yields poor results.

I would venture that there are many DIY designs out there that rival and even surpass the Mini, certainly in cost but also in performance. You've seen Tony's site - also look at Zaph Audio, Troels Gravesson, and please look at Jay's site: http://www.geocities.com/woove99/Spkrbldg/
I think his designs with the Usher woofers are not only high value but probably some of the best sound possible too.
 

Saltuk

Member
2006-01-16 12:11 am
Home
Hi neighbour:)

Yes the Cary amp is a serious factor to consider in what I heard,
but they were only 110w/ch , it was barely enough for the minis.

I have experienced many good systems and attended to countless musical events , the minis was the closest to the real thing.

By the way I %95 listen to classical and nearly all the music I tested were in that fashion. Just tried some jazz to hear spesific instruments.

I dont think the minis are the best speaker ever but I am afraid it is the best one for my tastes (the version 2 mini is currently about 30k!)

What I wonder is what makes it sound soo good , is it the parts it consists of or some magic in the filters?
 
Hi Atatürk !

Nice speakers,good looking, this is www I,can't hear,but I'll never seen woodwork like that.

Regards zeoN_Rider
 

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Salas

diyAudio Chief Moderator
Paid Member
2002-10-08 11:31 am
Athens-Greece
I think its something you like in its voicing and the specific breakup nature of the composite cone. Don't think that these drivers are something special for real criteria, just different. Special is the cabinet construction. Since you like testing with solo Jazz you are probably gonna lean towards smaller speakers with somewhat toned up mid high and inert construction that image good. If 110W per channel of tube power isn't enough for a 7 inch stand mount, there is something seriously wrong with it. You will have matching problems with amplification if you manage to exactly clone it (find the crossover schematic or abandon cloning IMHO).
 

Saltuk

Member
2006-01-16 12:11 am
Home
@zeonrider :)

@salas I believe the mini has lower sensivity value than stated to have deeper bass with more current and the sealed enclosure doesnt help the amp either, it seems that the key point will be the crossover (may be I should try to bribe the dealer to have a sneak peak inside the cabinet! )

@pedroskova great link , thanks alot!

the photo of the crossover is the exact one used by the mini by the way can we figure out some part of the schematic by studying it?
 

Salas

diyAudio Chief Moderator
Paid Member
2002-10-08 11:31 am
Athens-Greece
Yes but the diameter of a voice coil for a 7 inch cone has finite thermal exchange capabilities, remember that. Maybe its gonna be a 3 step power level experience: quiet SPL - almost ok SPL - distorted SPL. Never real & clear. How big is the room you plan to listen in, if you clone it?
 

limono

Member
2007-03-02 8:04 pm
Hi
I would abandon cloning these speakers or any speakers .It is highly unlikely your going to copy the sound of original (I don't think it is possible ) just to many variations.
You're going to end up with expensive turd in your garage. DIY speakers are for guys with lots of spare time, wood and a fireplace ;). Since your budget seems to be in thousands of $$ I'd keep looking for something else .You did not mention what is your amplification and sources ..
 

Salas

diyAudio Chief Moderator
Paid Member
2002-10-08 11:31 am
Athens-Greece
From Mini II link you gave:

''Also, it has become clear to me that part of the lively, brightish treble-range sound of the Mini I wasn't the tweeter per se, but the superaddition of the sound of the original titanium-sandwich mid/woof, whose non-linearities (break-up modes) were much lower in frequency than those of the new Nano-Tech carbon-fiber-sandwich mid/woof (which is linear out to 20kHz!) and which, I'm guessing, was adding a bit of its own non-linear, out-of-passband sound (grain, roughness, and aggressiveness) to the top octaves.''

"If you typically listen to music at 100+dB levels (especially in a largish room), then you probably ought to be considering a different kind of loudspeaker. ''

I have suspected such in my previous posts.
 
limono said:
Hi
I would abandon cloning these speakers or any speakers .It is highly unlikely your going to copy the sound of original (I don't think it is possible ) just to many variations.
You're going to end up with expensive turd in your garage. DIY speakers are for guys with lots of spare time, wood and a fireplace ;). Since your budget seems to be in thousands of $$ I'd keep looking for something else .You did not mention what is your amplification and sources ..

Cloning is rather common, and if you use the same drivers, crossover and cabinet, you can't avoid achieving the same performance. Those are the variables - there are not too many.

Expensive turd - not if it is a faithful clone, and the speaker being cloned is a good one.

DIY is for people with a lot of spare time? I DIY, and I don't have a lot of spare time, and neither do most others here, I suspect. DIY is simply what we do with the spare time we have.
 

Salas

diyAudio Chief Moderator
Paid Member
2002-10-08 11:31 am
Athens-Greece
Saltuk said:
@salas you have some point, but strongly recommend to pay a visit to Audio Temple in Athens when you have time, for the minis.

I will give it a shot given a circumstance. Its nice to evaluate some buzz components from time to time, so to know the state of luxury audio people's tastes. I try to keep an open mind and a friendly ear.
I am terribly disappointed from not a hurried exposure to stuff like Avalon Eidolon Diamond and latest Watt-Puppy, as parts of several hundred thousand Euro systems, I must confess.
My impression of this luxury business fits well with Lynn Olson's if you are familiar with his aired views.
 

Saltuk

Member
2006-01-16 12:11 am
Home
I am some kind of indirect insider in audio business , and almost dislike every major high-end brand and their pricing policies (I am using custom made chinese electronics and cables in my system that costs less than -say a very expensive interconnect, and beats, likes of Krell and Wadia in A/B comparision to my ears and many others that I respect their opinions)
Please consider my point of view and take account of my feelings about the mini.

@zei what a beauty !