Yeah, a typical HT sub system's 80-120 Hz XO is much too low since ~80-300 Hz is historically where most live concert's 'slam' is and with so many rock, country, etc., recordings having only ~5dB of dynamic headroom, even a large 'FR' driver is in distress trying to get some 'slam' going on.
Factor in that most music's high power headroom requirements are in the ~250-500 Hz BW, I consider 250 Hz the minimum XO point with the pioneers of audio's 300-500 Hz being the best overall.
GM
Factor in that most music's high power headroom requirements are in the ~250-500 Hz BW, I consider 250 Hz the minimum XO point with the pioneers of audio's 300-500 Hz being the best overall.
GM
Ideally, I would have gone for a sub + 2 way open baffle system but what about my listening room ?
It have a large opening, a staircase from our dining room(ground floor) and because of this, when I play loud, its almost unbearable there because of the sound (especially bass) gets "sucked" in through the staircase.
Our TV is in the open area just outside the dining room and one have to raise the volume of the TV to very high levels just to hear it.
It have a large opening, a staircase from our dining room(ground floor) and because of this, when I play loud, its almost unbearable there because of the sound (especially bass) gets "sucked" in through the staircase.
Our TV is in the open area just outside the dining room and one have to raise the volume of the TV to very high levels just to hear it.
eljoantonyn,
IIRC xrk971 and others have given a few suggestions on possible solutions? Maybe it will be helpful if you summarize and then evaluate (with the help of the forum
)?
xrk971,
Given the description, looks like OP's room acoustics are challenging. Drivers that "beam" more are likely to make the system sound better (possibly at lower volume levels too), though within a relatively tighter sweet spot? What do you think?
IIRC xrk971 and others have given a few suggestions on possible solutions? Maybe it will be helpful if you summarize and then evaluate (with the help of the forum
)? xrk971,
Given the description, looks like OP's room acoustics are challenging. Drivers that "beam" more are likely to make the system sound better (possibly at lower volume levels too), though within a relatively tighter sweet spot? What do you think?
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yeah, that's where those pesky laws of physics get in the way - and try to get creative with folding etc, and you can find the "box" doesn't necessarily garner more of that elusive WAF
With a large opening, you will have sound escaping - at least with anything other than headphones or an egg chair. It doesn't actually get sucked out, but that's kind of irrelevant.
Your best option then, other than the obvious idea of a door, would be IMHO an OB system. I suggest something like Martin King's system. They have a fig 8 response, and if the baffles are place with the nulls toward the opening, it will help reduce leakage. OB bass is an easy way to get directional bass without going to a giant bass horn, which isn't practical for most people.
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It should be noted that this would be fairly simple: two Eminence Alpha15, a couple 4" full range of your choice, some crossover parts, and two sheets of plywood.
Edit - I should have said Alpha 15 equivalent. maybe this one? That's more like a Beta 15, but could be made to work. That 15" full range is kind of interesting too.
Edit - I should have said Alpha 15 equivalent. maybe this one? That's more like a Beta 15, but could be made to work. That 15" full range is kind of interesting too.
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Goldwood's GW1858 is a popular open baffle woofer and usable to around 32Hz. With regards to qts, I've enjoyed a P-Audio neo 15 coax with qts ~0.36 on a small open baffle - the tautness of bass made up for whatever relative loss vs higher qts woofer.
Visaton's NoBox is another of these type - I'm not sure how much combing occurs from the centered fullrange. http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0606/visation_nobox_bb_loudspeaker.htm
I'm not a rocker - my K18 could deliver 10dB more than a 15" Silver Iris with much less distortion and nearly inperceptable cone movement . A good front horn system could be cool for rock - - the dynamic range databass indicates pretty mediocre dynamic range for a lot of stuff. DJK mentioned a 100Hs bifurcated "Belle" size with 12pe32 - if made smooth enough then would be nice but that's going into a 4-way system territory. oops! - that's two 12pe32 push pull in the PWK Belle size FLH
for a single driver, Fane's 250 double whizzer 12 is cool, lively in the mids and will take 15vrms below fs without mechanical failure - it should be fun on an open baffle
will modulation distortion be low enough to rock with a 4" xover ~300 and 15"? - might be dependent upon the crossover slopes and whether passive or active. The drumkit, bass and guitars should sound "big" if recorded certain ways (I don't know rock well)
Visaton's NoBox is another of these type - I'm not sure how much combing occurs from the centered fullrange. http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0606/visation_nobox_bb_loudspeaker.htm
I'm not a rocker - my K18 could deliver 10dB more than a 15" Silver Iris with much less distortion and nearly inperceptable cone movement . A good front horn system could be cool for rock - - the dynamic range databass indicates pretty mediocre dynamic range for a lot of stuff. DJK mentioned a 100Hs bifurcated "Belle" size with 12pe32 - if made smooth enough then would be nice but that's going into a 4-way system territory. oops! - that's two 12pe32 push pull in the PWK Belle size FLH
for a single driver, Fane's 250 double whizzer 12 is cool, lively in the mids and will take 15vrms below fs without mechanical failure - it should be fun on an open baffle
will modulation distortion be low enough to rock with a 4" xover ~300 and 15"? - might be dependent upon the crossover slopes and whether passive or active. The drumkit, bass and guitars should sound "big" if recorded certain ways (I don't know rock well)
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We should not aim for perfection with Rock/Metal, because the sound quality was not perfect from the beginning. We need something with a nice ring to it, call it distortion that matches the distortion of the guitar driver, and a bass that sounds as natural as a overly compressed kick and bass guitar, if there is such a thing. A great way to mask imperfection is going for low sensitivity speaker (~89dB).
High senstivity speakers make the music very forward, bringing forth the details, if there was any. Popular music uses a lot of digital plugins and 100+ tracks at once of all kinds of noise, which decimates sound signal. I have tried this myself as an amateur bedroom studio technician.
But clean sounds does not always sound good either. I guess that is why modern musicians rely so much on them. Many get overzealous with the plugins.
High senstivity speakers make the music very forward, bringing forth the details, if there was any. Popular music uses a lot of digital plugins and 100+ tracks at once of all kinds of noise, which decimates sound signal. I have tried this myself as an amateur bedroom studio technician.
But clean sounds does not always sound good either. I guess that is why modern musicians rely so much on them. Many get overzealous with the plugins.
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For sure that is correct. We were discussing this early in the thread.
Yeah, compression is your friend - which is what happens with low efficiency speakers, but I have heard cheap and nasty PA speakers sound good with rock too.I suspect it is not high sensitivity so much that is the 'problem', but rather the low distortion that goes along with it.
Anyhow, I find that a happy medium between overly forgiving and brutally clear is appropriate. I think a big cheap woofer and a small decent paper coned FR is a good way to go for this. A big OB system will not be super efficient once properly set up.
I find with big horns (<=see avatar) I can only play really high quality music that serves up the music on a silver platter. A mindsp 4x10HD can't eq them to perfection when it comes to rock. I suspect I need a huge 15"+6-8"+1" ~90dB sensitive speaker with a 100W F-5 Turbo v3. Where is Cerwin Vega when I need them?! http://www.cerwinvega.com/home-audio/floorstanding-speakers/xls-215.html
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Hi
Playing with Fast myself at the moment, got distracted from building 3 way SB Acoustic, thought why not. Used my testing/abortion enclosure.
Requires a lot of work though, more volume for the woods, around 11 litres for the MA 10.3, testing experimenting with active crossing between 200 - 300 prefer the higher end at the moment.
Not sure yet to build proper box yet........ Fun though.
BR
Bruce
Playing with Fast myself at the moment, got distracted from building 3 way SB Acoustic, thought why not. Used my testing/abortion enclosure.
Requires a lot of work though, more volume for the woods, around 11 litres for the MA 10.3, testing experimenting with active crossing between 200 - 300 prefer the higher end at the moment.
Not sure yet to build proper box yet........ Fun though.
BR
Bruce
Attachments
A-ears:
That is a darn nice looking box for testing. You must have pretty high standards for your "proper" speaker boxes. What are you using for woofers with the A10? My FAST setups have typically used 200Hz to 350Hz XO and I prefer the higher 350Hz. It really relieves the full range from moving much at all and really lowers harmonic distortion. I have found that in the sub 400Hz range even cheap $5 to $10 buyout woofers, in sufficient quantity, can sound good and measure very well.
That is a darn nice looking box for testing. You must have pretty high standards for your "proper" speaker boxes. What are you using for woofers with the A10? My FAST setups have typically used 200Hz to 350Hz XO and I prefer the higher 350Hz. It really relieves the full range from moving much at all and really lowers harmonic distortion. I have found that in the sub 400Hz range even cheap $5 to $10 buyout woofers, in sufficient quantity, can sound good and measure very well.
Congrats on the wedding! First things first!
Get the wife in on the project, you'll need her support.
I've read part of the thread and have seen a view posts that make me wonder. I've seen that sort of view many times on here. I my opinion a good speaker can play anything. Be it Rock or Orchestral music. If it doesn't, something is off. Why would Rock not sound good on a clear system? Makes absolutely no sense to me.
While I'm into Rock I do like other music as well. I made an effort to buid good clean speakers that are well behaved in dynamics, distortion, time coherency and even efficiency. They play from 17 Hz to 17000 Hz and generally play nice with everything I throw at them. They can go insanely loud but I listen to about 85 dB SPL on average. To be able to do that I have a tilted down frequency response. That way I can even feel the bass at the mentioned level.
In my opinion Rock asks for SD area. But I bet it can do great on Horns as well. My neighbour had an old Altec Barcelona setup and liked Rammstein. It worked pretty good!
But he had to reinforce the bottom end. I tried Rammstein on my clean speakers and it definitely Rocks. I'm more into Led Zeppelin, Van Halen (with Dave obviously), guitar work like Steve Vai but also a lot of other Classic Rock and Progressive Rock, some Pop even, Blues and acoustical guitar stuff. But my speakers can do Dance, Dub Step R&B (even though I don't like that generally) equally well. Classical Orchestral stuff can be downright scary.
Do not only build good speakers, take care of the room as well.
I would not know if my speakers still sound like single full range drivers. To me it sounds like music.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/242171-making-two-towers-25-driver-full-range-line-array.html
But I don't listen to songs anymore, it's more like listening to musical events.
Why a good performing speaker would not be able to play everything is beyond me.
Get the wife in on the project, you'll need her support.
I've read part of the thread and have seen a view posts that make me wonder. I've seen that sort of view many times on here. I my opinion a good speaker can play anything. Be it Rock or Orchestral music. If it doesn't, something is off. Why would Rock not sound good on a clear system? Makes absolutely no sense to me.
While I'm into Rock I do like other music as well. I made an effort to buid good clean speakers that are well behaved in dynamics, distortion, time coherency and even efficiency. They play from 17 Hz to 17000 Hz and generally play nice with everything I throw at them. They can go insanely loud but I listen to about 85 dB SPL on average. To be able to do that I have a tilted down frequency response. That way I can even feel the bass at the mentioned level.
In my opinion Rock asks for SD area. But I bet it can do great on Horns as well. My neighbour had an old Altec Barcelona setup and liked Rammstein. It worked pretty good!
But he had to reinforce the bottom end. I tried Rammstein on my clean speakers and it definitely Rocks. I'm more into Led Zeppelin, Van Halen (with Dave obviously), guitar work like Steve Vai but also a lot of other Classic Rock and Progressive Rock, some Pop even, Blues and acoustical guitar stuff. But my speakers can do Dance, Dub Step R&B (even though I don't like that generally) equally well. Classical Orchestral stuff can be downright scary.
Do not only build good speakers, take care of the room as well.
I would not know if my speakers still sound like single full range drivers. To me it sounds like music.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/242171-making-two-towers-25-driver-full-range-line-array.html
But I don't listen to songs anymore, it's more like listening to musical events.
Why a good performing speaker would not be able to play everything is beyond me.
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