What "measurements" (peek) do not tell also:
Most "stereo signals" are mono (present on both channels). Since loudspeakers have different imaging sizes and shapes, you can determine the optimum set-up in this way:
Move the loudspeakers together once to zero distance. Listen. Move them 10 cm apart, listen. Move them further apart, listen. And keep doing this until the sound image tears apart. Then move them together again until they play together: It will be that your loudspeakers will be less than one meter apart (center-center), so that width, depth, height, coherence, contour, colors... interact and become "round".
Now we also have an instrument with which we can detect sound differences between parts or devices, for example. If the sound stage changes to such an extent that we have to get off our butts to reposition the loudspeakers...-)
Most "stereo signals" are mono (present on both channels). Since loudspeakers have different imaging sizes and shapes, you can determine the optimum set-up in this way:
Move the loudspeakers together once to zero distance. Listen. Move them 10 cm apart, listen. Move them further apart, listen. And keep doing this until the sound image tears apart. Then move them together again until they play together: It will be that your loudspeakers will be less than one meter apart (center-center), so that width, depth, height, coherence, contour, colors... interact and become "round".
Now we also have an instrument with which we can detect sound differences between parts or devices, for example. If the sound stage changes to such an extent that we have to get off our butts to reposition the loudspeakers...-)
hi thank you very much for your valuable advice to get an optimal 3d soundstage I guess that clearly the result will be a combination of things not only of the speakers placement in the room
However with some difficulty i am trying to assemble different pieces of information that could be seen as principles like when speaking of cone drivers the material of the cone makes the sound
This if true is a very important fact
Then the problem becomes to test the mechanical properties of that material
Very often i see people knocking on speaker cabinets turntable plints and tapping on woofer cones and listen for resonances
I wonder if there is a more scientific way to carry out this kind of tests
I found interesting that hitting a driver cone generates an electric signal at the driver terminals that can be seen on a scope
another interesting thing is that some drivers can sound decent in free air even without cabinet
other seem broken in comparison i wonder why
but most of all i would like to understand more about drivers selection methods
In case designers use ears i would be very interested to know what kind of test signals they normally use
i am sure that a great speaker must have great drivers
and sound quality could be not proportional to price
However with some difficulty i am trying to assemble different pieces of information that could be seen as principles like when speaking of cone drivers the material of the cone makes the sound
This if true is a very important fact
Then the problem becomes to test the mechanical properties of that material
Very often i see people knocking on speaker cabinets turntable plints and tapping on woofer cones and listen for resonances
I wonder if there is a more scientific way to carry out this kind of tests
I found interesting that hitting a driver cone generates an electric signal at the driver terminals that can be seen on a scope
another interesting thing is that some drivers can sound decent in free air even without cabinet
other seem broken in comparison i wonder why
but most of all i would like to understand more about drivers selection methods
In case designers use ears i would be very interested to know what kind of test signals they normally use
i am sure that a great speaker must have great drivers
and sound quality could be not proportional to price
Everything you have listed applies. But it's not only with cone speakers that the sound of the material has an enormous influence.
And also the material of the cabinet and everything else;-)
Another test: cover your cabinets with blankets or fabric and listen.
Or just cover the front with fabric.
Install the drivers according to physical principles: clamp and decouple.
And and and.
The simplest/best thing is to build a full range driver and tune it - WITHOUT crossover parts. THEN you have a loudspeaker that can also be used to better evaluate electrical devices;-)
And also the material of the cabinet and everything else;-)
Another test: cover your cabinets with blankets or fabric and listen.
Or just cover the front with fabric.
Install the drivers according to physical principles: clamp and decouple.
And and and.
The simplest/best thing is to build a full range driver and tune it - WITHOUT crossover parts. THEN you have a loudspeaker that can also be used to better evaluate electrical devices;-)
Thank for the very valuable advice as always
anyway it's probably a risky comparison but I see the design and construction of a speaker as cooking a recipe
the quality of the raw materials actually sets the maximum level that can be achieved
A good cook will enhance their qualities An incompetent one will ruin them
But even an exceptional cook will not be able to enhance rotten food
I am an indecent cook but I would at least like to understand something about how the raw materials are selected
That is, the drivers
It seems to me that there are many more tools for designing xovers and cabinets than tools for selecting drivers
In fact, some people even trust their ears Crazy
anyway it's probably a risky comparison but I see the design and construction of a speaker as cooking a recipe
the quality of the raw materials actually sets the maximum level that can be achieved
A good cook will enhance their qualities An incompetent one will ruin them
But even an exceptional cook will not be able to enhance rotten food
I am an indecent cook but I would at least like to understand something about how the raw materials are selected
That is, the drivers
It seems to me that there are many more tools for designing xovers and cabinets than tools for selecting drivers
In fact, some people even trust their ears Crazy
So, if materials have sound, but good loudspeaker should not sound like any material but music, right? then the cones must be made of no material, wouldn't they? This simple word play indicates it's not the materials, but system design.
wellllll....
You can measure any number of things but interpreting them is a whole other thing, and conversely listening tests can fool one into believing stuff that just ain't so.
For example, for decades phase response was declared unimportant even though a fair number of people said that mini-monitors or single-driver systems had more PRAT (pace, rhythm, and timing). Now recent research shows the ear is sensitive to phase, albeit below 1500 to 2000 Hz, and crossovers between 100 Hz and 250 Hz, where large 3-way systems have the woofer to mid transition, can mess up percussion. So that's an example where really good frequency response measurements were only part of the picture.
For another example, at the (2009?) BAF someone presented an omnidirectional system which sounded amazing on a drum kit, with you-are-there feel. However, a recording of a woman singing sounded like she was in a barrel. It turned out the system had a considerable peak around 200-300 Hz, which coloured the drums in a seductive way but did horrid things to vocals.
So the answer is: if you measure something but it sounds mediocre maybe you're not measuring all the right stuff. Conversely, if it sounds great but measures indifferently then one must take care to ensure you're not fooling yourself.
I have test gear out the yin-yang and I work hard at making certain my gear measures properly, but the last judge is always the ears. That is what John Dunlavy emphasized in his Stereophile interview:
The whole thing is worth a careful read. I disagree with JD on first-order crossovers being the only way to TRVTH, but I have damn good reasons for my viewpoint.
You don't let a driver have it's way.. it needs to conform to your system. As you take control, different drivers in the same place would begin to sound the same.
On the other hand, if you put them in and do nothing they often sound different.
Even those who rely heavily on measurements use their ears to advantage. For some matters it is the only way. For others it is a big help even though we can't be sure what causes some of the problems we hear.
i have found something on topic
http://wp13470711.server-he.de/en/
they claim to have used almost any material I wonder how they test their prototypes for sound quality
maybe by listening
http://wp13470711.server-he.de/en/
they claim to have used almost any material I wonder how they test their prototypes for sound quality
maybe by listening
i see But you can easily measure phase Ok i think i got it It is difficult to understand what to measure ?
but again i guess an ideal speaker must exist at least ideally The more a real speaker behaves like an ideal one the better
for instance an ideal speaker should have no ringing after an impulse The lower the ringing the better
an ideal speaker should reproduce perfectly even a square wave Then test a real speaker/driver with a SW and see It is quite easy to do
again you can see the peak on instruments I wonder if they run any in room measurements when they set up their systems at audio fairs
i really think they should to avoid issues during demos
lets say this You have a prototype that sounds bad What will you do ?
you have already listened to it and it is bad Then ? how will you proceed ?
I'd say that a loudspeaker which is time coherent (makes a perfect step response, naturally or DSPed) and linear in frequency response only needs enough low distortion in the mid frequencies where the ear is most sensitive to get a pretty realistic sounding speaker.
I bet it would perform well in (blind) listening tests.
There is still some influence in dispersion pattern but linear and time coherent with low enough distortion in the mids makes already a good loudspeaker.
I bet it would perform well in (blind) listening tests.
There is still some influence in dispersion pattern but linear and time coherent with low enough distortion in the mids makes already a good loudspeaker.
John Dunlavy sounded quite sincere in his apology of lab testing
But i would like to make a simple case
I have to cover the range up to 2kHz with a 24dB cut at that frequency with a woofer in an active monitor
i am looking at some online vendors and i see many different options for different prices
of course i cannot listen before buying I have to rely only on datasheets
i am looking for a sort of guide
i am sure manufacturers buy a great amount of drivers and test them to select the best at a certain price
but i cant
@ginetto61
I do not know how most people construct loudspeakers but I can't live without the measurements of loudspeakers in DIY Hifi magazines giving good overview on the market of available drivers for various projects.
Then magazines like Klang und Ton and Hobby Hifi offer lots of secure tested designs for replication.
With the help of these magazines life is much easier for the DIY aficionado.
The next thing is - even for the professionals - I recommend to make near field audio recordings of some instruments and reproduce this recording on your speakers for a fine tuning while playing the same instruments you own.
This is important in order to know when the work is done.
Because it can happen you change the fine tuning the other day due to variations in your daily listening performance without necessity.
I do not know how most people construct loudspeakers but I can't live without the measurements of loudspeakers in DIY Hifi magazines giving good overview on the market of available drivers for various projects.
Then magazines like Klang und Ton and Hobby Hifi offer lots of secure tested designs for replication.
With the help of these magazines life is much easier for the DIY aficionado.
The next thing is - even for the professionals - I recommend to make near field audio recordings of some instruments and reproduce this recording on your speakers for a fine tuning while playing the same instruments you own.
This is important in order to know when the work is done.
Because it can happen you change the fine tuning the other day due to variations in your daily listening performance without necessity.
Ginetto, when you take into account the higher frequency directivity of a woofer and it's breakup, crossing to a dome at 2kHz might ideally call for a 5" driver. Smaller will work but you lose bass. 8" might be your upper limit. Many choose 6.5".
This is an example of the type of thinking that helps to remove the differences.
This is an example of the type of thinking that helps to remove the differences.
easy reproductible instruments I used for testing:
big and small triangle
blues harp c
small wooden xylophone
plastic flute
beer bottle which I "thumped" with my finger
all these played easily the tonal ladder up and down. At the same time like the loudspeakers reproducing the recording or directly after a tone was played playing it on the instrument immediately following.
big and small triangle
blues harp c
small wooden xylophone
plastic flute
beer bottle which I "thumped" with my finger
all these played easily the tonal ladder up and down. At the same time like the loudspeakers reproducing the recording or directly after a tone was played playing it on the instrument immediately following.
A good full range 20-20 000Hz loudspeaker with low distortion, coherent impulse response and suitable radiation pattern (for the use case and preference) will need at least 3 "ways" and dsp applied with good understanding of electronics, mechanics, acoustics and signal processing. Of course measurements and careful analysis with modern FFT software. It will sound neutral, coherent, fast, clean etc. After that you can modify the sound if you want, for personal or marketing reasons.
Driver materials and "motor" types etc. have quite little effect to the final product, unless they are faulty or unsuitable for the task. Listening to drivers in hand without any filtering has nothing to do with competent design process.
Uncompromised loudspeakers do not exist. Many diy or pro designers and manufacturers have personal preferences they emphasize and use as marketing highlight. For example good impulse response from a single driver fullrange, low distortion at lowest bass, dipole radiation pattern, copper ring, ferrofluid, electrostatic, solid metal case etc.
Keep calm, peace on earth!
Driver materials and "motor" types etc. have quite little effect to the final product, unless they are faulty or unsuitable for the task. Listening to drivers in hand without any filtering has nothing to do with competent design process.
Uncompromised loudspeakers do not exist. Many diy or pro designers and manufacturers have personal preferences they emphasize and use as marketing highlight. For example good impulse response from a single driver fullrange, low distortion at lowest bass, dipole radiation pattern, copper ring, ferrofluid, electrostatic, solid metal case etc.
Keep calm, peace on earth!
Above all, we hear the resonance of the materials. Also in electronics: currents are modulated by material resonances and swingings. The ear recognizes this. The second step is to combine different materials to create a balanced sound that conceals problems. For example, the speaker box material "wood-based" (gray and flat and accentuated in the middle) can be countered by steel (metal - overshoot, dark). And here the steel can be inserted, for example, as a spike under the speaker or as a socket/plug,-)
That meant denying physical, material, objective reality.
Let's turn the tables: knowing the physical, obhective conditions is the basis for the concepts to be applied. For example: no multi-multi-way speakers, consideration of mass-stiffness ratios...-)
Yeah, because good sounding speakers exists that are made out of some material, it's not the material itself that makes sound but how the driver is implemented (as system) and how the complete loudspeaker is implemented as system so that the drivers are not stressed to limits to reveal their nature. Hence, while sound of material is important, the key thing is to make that sound disappear, it's irrelevant which material a driver sounds (is made of) because the goal is to make the sound disappear.