😉
I refer you to a simple experiment that I like to do with my fellow humans and audiophiles - and everybody could it do, proof(-:
What do I do? I take a two-way loudspeaker, usually a Dynaudio Contour 1.3, because it is considered particularly balanced and frequency-linear, and install a switch. It switches between the original and the bass-midrange driver solo (but physically regarded installed: clamped and decoupled), without any crossover. Guess which is consistently judged to be cleaner, more balanced, clearer, more distinct, more musical;-)
But this also requires cleanly working players (sources, amps). For example, a multi-stage complementary transistor push-pull is recognized as a grey, flat and distorted sounding pig. Here, too, the reference to compilation, arrangement: grey and flat amps harmonizes with, an example, separately playing tweeter. However, the selection of audible music decreases: which is why "audiophiles" need their "audiophile" recordings, high dosed candlelight music;-)
I mean, it is easily to prove that frequency response and other supposedly important parameters play no role, or even a false, once again unprooved role, in audio;-)
I refer you to a simple experiment that I like to do with my fellow humans and audiophiles - and everybody could it do, proof(-:
What do I do? I take a two-way loudspeaker, usually a Dynaudio Contour 1.3, because it is considered particularly balanced and frequency-linear, and install a switch. It switches between the original and the bass-midrange driver solo (but physically regarded installed: clamped and decoupled), without any crossover. Guess which is consistently judged to be cleaner, more balanced, clearer, more distinct, more musical;-)
But this also requires cleanly working players (sources, amps). For example, a multi-stage complementary transistor push-pull is recognized as a grey, flat and distorted sounding pig. Here, too, the reference to compilation, arrangement: grey and flat amps harmonizes with, an example, separately playing tweeter. However, the selection of audible music decreases: which is why "audiophiles" need their "audiophile" recordings, high dosed candlelight music;-)
I mean, it is easily to prove that frequency response and other supposedly important parameters play no role, or even a false, once again unprooved role, in audio;-)
^my guess is that the two-way is voted better!
cumbb seriously, I get the impresssion that you have listened to tube amps and single paper-cone "fullranges" for too long. Can you please name or even give us a link to a single fullrange speaker or driver that you consider good? Most preferably with a link to measurements done of it?
I have of course listened to some vintage and modern diy "fullrange" speakers, but I don't like the sound of those. Tested some of them myself too. Practically no clean bass, distorted and very directive upper end. Stereo imaging and human voice are good features of those though.
A couple of links
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/GoodmansAxiom150mkII.htm
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/greencones.htm
http://www.zaphaudio.com/audio-speaker18.html
cumbb seriously, I get the impresssion that you have listened to tube amps and single paper-cone "fullranges" for too long. Can you please name or even give us a link to a single fullrange speaker or driver that you consider good? Most preferably with a link to measurements done of it?
I have of course listened to some vintage and modern diy "fullrange" speakers, but I don't like the sound of those. Tested some of them myself too. Practically no clean bass, distorted and very directive upper end. Stereo imaging and human voice are good features of those though.
A couple of links
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/GoodmansAxiom150mkII.htm
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/greencones.htm
http://www.zaphaudio.com/audio-speaker18.html
You didn't read: I'm using the example of a two-way loudspeaker, with its drivers, to compare with itself. I don't change drivers. And the midrange driver, which supposedly can't even produce high frequencies, doesn't lack them either.
And I also wrote about the combination of amplifier and loudspeaker.
In addition, paper drivers, especially with large diaphragms, should also be reworked with regard to the diaphragm. You haven't seen or heard that anywhere yet. Obviously nobody can do that either)-;
So please read first, read again, make the differentiations and categorizations, check the statements practically: diy audio. Then answer.
And I also wrote about the combination of amplifier and loudspeaker.
In addition, paper drivers, especially with large diaphragms, should also be reworked with regard to the diaphragm. You haven't seen or heard that anywhere yet. Obviously nobody can do that either)-;
So please read first, read again, make the differentiations and categorizations, check the statements practically: diy audio. Then answer.
Hi,
by switching a two way box to "fullrange mode" like that changes a lot of things, mostly the frequency response and directivity because the woofer "beams" what the tweeter used to radiate rather wide, so interaction with room changes a lot. For example edge diffraction is taken out when you do this on the particular speaker, which could be designed out also with the tweeter in place. All kinds of things change, so if sound gets better without tweeter it means the original multi-way implementation is relatively bad because there is no reason for the tweeter. Unless, it's ment for an application that calls for wide directivity on top and demands the tweeter there.
It's a good test though I think, should teach a lot.
by switching a two way box to "fullrange mode" like that changes a lot of things, mostly the frequency response and directivity because the woofer "beams" what the tweeter used to radiate rather wide, so interaction with room changes a lot. For example edge diffraction is taken out when you do this on the particular speaker, which could be designed out also with the tweeter in place. All kinds of things change, so if sound gets better without tweeter it means the original multi-way implementation is relatively bad because there is no reason for the tweeter. Unless, it's ment for an application that calls for wide directivity on top and demands the tweeter there.
It's a good test though I think, should teach a lot.
You ask for a simple guide to select the right driver for the right task, but it is not simple. There are whole books written about the subject and it's an endless discussion here.
It helps to understand how it works by starting modelling drivers in software like Virtuixcad or Winisd to understand what is what and how speakers work. But it would also help to read about and study the basics of speaker design to learn how that works.
And I select speakres on facts. Which means specs and measurments. I don't always know how accurate they are (and mostly they are not), but you can guess from published specs how a speaker will work more or less.
It helps to understand how it works by starting modelling drivers in software like Virtuixcad or Winisd to understand what is what and how speakers work. But it would also help to read about and study the basics of speaker design to learn how that works.
And I select speakres on facts. Which means specs and measurments. I don't always know how accurate they are (and mostly they are not), but you can guess from published specs how a speaker will work more or less.
And much more: a revision with regard to the many small, unnoticed but physically relevant and proven, conditions, e.g. the omission of unnecessary transitions and paths, the reduction of cable diameters, the use of single-core instead of stranded wires, the identical cable length for HT and TT...-)
By the way: many 17W75s break because their voice coil leads rub on the sharp edges of the soldering lugs. I recommend checking and reworking the Dynaudio drivers right away.
Cable stuff, well, I don't count much to that, minor changes compared to how much frequency response and directivity would change with multiway to fullrange switch. There is even an argument that rubbish cable sounds better than audiophile one, because it adds relatively stable impedance in series with a driver reducing driver motor distortion turn acoustic sound with a voltage amp, assuming possible change in frequency response is compensated. For a fullrange driver change in frequency response from increased series impedance should sound better even without compensation as typically FR gets boost around driver resonance and high up "extending" the bandwidth. See "current drive". Cables could change sound dramatically, highlighted especially in high power application with long runs, like in live PA systems. Relatively low resistance cable swapped to another, with short runs like in typical hifi, have so small effect everything else happening in the room could dwarf.
All this stuff would need frequency response matching of very high degree to attribute audible difference to something else than the frequency response. This is typical audiophile talk and goes nowhere, and is not very productive. If someone hears difference between cables then it's good for them, they can then choose the better one. I hope everyone gets good sound what ever means they know works for them. Personally I've found many other things that affects sound more making the whole cable thing quite uninteresting as I can choose cable with properties that suffice. Perhaps when I get those things right I can compare cabling, but that's years away I think.
Rubbing leads could be audible though, one of my woofers has a bit "loose" lead and it rattles some. Easily audible when the driver is out of box, not so sure when it's in a box. Could be though, definitely should show up in distortion measurements at least. I added piece of tape to tame it down and haven't noticed it in use.
All this stuff would need frequency response matching of very high degree to attribute audible difference to something else than the frequency response. This is typical audiophile talk and goes nowhere, and is not very productive. If someone hears difference between cables then it's good for them, they can then choose the better one. I hope everyone gets good sound what ever means they know works for them. Personally I've found many other things that affects sound more making the whole cable thing quite uninteresting as I can choose cable with properties that suffice. Perhaps when I get those things right I can compare cabling, but that's years away I think.
Rubbing leads could be audible though, one of my woofers has a bit "loose" lead and it rattles some. Easily audible when the driver is out of box, not so sure when it's in a box. Could be though, definitely should show up in distortion measurements at least. I added piece of tape to tame it down and haven't noticed it in use.
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The simplest exercise that every "audiophile" should know is to tune the sound of the speakers using different materials as base and stand. Here, however, the frequency response is not changed in the way the ear perceives the tuning. These two measurement methods do not correspond to each other.
About the assumption of "hearing ability": these tests are generally single frequency measurements. But take the frequency from 10,000 hertz out of the music for someone with such proven hearing loss because he can only hear 500 - 2,000 hertz: he will notice it. Finally learn to criticize your low-complexity and contextless ideas!
I really much like listening tests like that, great fun, although it must be understood that it could be any difference that makes it, even non existing one like visual difference because auditory system combines all kinds of sensory inputs, memories and so on, as forming a perception for us to enjoy. To weed this kind of differences out there should be some kind of an AB test, like old and new stand next to each other, blind folded, what ever, to rule out other factors except just the stand. Or, just take the one that feels better, it might not matter why it's better in the end. Someone could argue good speakers have no stands.
Once I setup my speakers on my friends place, and while the setup was different to what I have at home in many ways most startling was it felt very tactile, my feet could feel the bass. I had to put bass boxes driver facing up due to practical reasons and the floor got likely excited more than at home. The floor was also different, not a concrete slab but wooden and floating on beams or something as it's an old house. But I didn't test woofers the normal way up there so I have no idea what made it, just a guess based on what I know. It could have been something else completely like system response which I had to tune a little as it was very different size room than at home and frequency balance was off. Most likely it was many things combined, as rarely only one thing is different. By the way, this gives good guideline: don't look for any single magic bullet change to make big difference, but make as many things aligned as possible to make sure there is a difference.
Once I setup my speakers on my friends place, and while the setup was different to what I have at home in many ways most startling was it felt very tactile, my feet could feel the bass. I had to put bass boxes driver facing up due to practical reasons and the floor got likely excited more than at home. The floor was also different, not a concrete slab but wooden and floating on beams or something as it's an old house. But I didn't test woofers the normal way up there so I have no idea what made it, just a guess based on what I know. It could have been something else completely like system response which I had to tune a little as it was very different size room than at home and frequency balance was off. Most likely it was many things combined, as rarely only one thing is different. By the way, this gives good guideline: don't look for any single magic bullet change to make big difference, but make as many things aligned as possible to make sure there is a difference.
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i need to understand this better What do you mean for take control ? could you please elaborate ?
this sounds weird to me Said shortly i truly think that if the goal is accuracy the measurement approach is the only promising
I am sick for accuracy I want to hear everything that is in the recording Maybe i will end with an active monitor i do not know
I am following some discussions about xovers Usually they talk about smear haze harsh cold and they never back their words with measurements
At the beginning is entartaining then becomes puzzling and in the end annoying
something sounding better must have some better measurements I am sure of this Then they should show them
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Perfect ! this is what i need to know
I have the feeling that not everything is said in depth
For example I was reading the lab report of a small but cute two-way bookshelf of a famous brand and quite expensive About 2000 dollars a pair
At a certain point on the basis of the low distortion the reviewer says that the speaker has an excellent behavior above 200Hz
The same reviewer on another occasion says that the distortion measurements are overrated
As Roger Waters said And is it any wonder that the monkey (i.e. me) is confused
Distortion is the evil at least for accuracy
the act of twisting or altering something out of its true, natural, or original state
accuracy is everything
Thanks a lot Are they in German language ? i already struggle with my own language sometimes
actually this is what i would like to do Some time ago i got insults because i was proposing to use movie special effects to test a playback chain
I was watching a dvd with two rooms separated by a glass At a certain point a guy hit the glass The effect was so real that he seemed to hit the tv screen
The chain was a 80 USD samsung dvd player Revox b150 and Quad ESL63
i bought only the Sansung dvd player and actually it was quite good also with music
The recording of real sounds in the movies can have an astonishing realism and so be a good tool to check a system
Thank you very much for your kind and very valuable confirmation of my feeling
i see some 2ways monitors using a 8" and a dome Also made by famous brands like Dynaudio Genelec and so on
But this leaves me puzzled The crossing region could be critical
Measuring is easy. Knowing how to make a speaker which can reproduce an ideal square wave, not so much. And besides, what makes a square wave more valid than anything else? For that matter, maybe being phase accurate all the way to 20 kHz is not so important since the ear doesn't seem to much care about phase above 1000 to 1500 Hz [1] so you could probably get away with a fairly raggedy-looking square wave.
[1] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3663869/
Yes, obvious peaks can be measured. The example was to show how one could be misled tuning systems solely by ear on only one type of source while disregarding other musical instruments.
That's when the learning starts. Matter of fact, I'm dealing with an issue like that in one of my speakers. The tonal balance is correct and vocals image really well in the centre (it's actually kind of spooky feeling like Tori Amos or Geddy Lee is right there). However, the imaging off-centre could use some work. Maybe it's the room, maybe it's because I'm sitting about ten degrees below axis (setup is suboptimal), maybe there are early reflections from the cabinet edges, maybe it's something I missed. I don't know yet.
@ginetto61
yes, they are in german. Maybe a smartfone with google translator makes them readable for you.
Concerning the recordings of instruments:
by having them recorded and simultaneously played in the listening room you have real control for checking the sound of your loudspeakers.
Usually you do not know how a recording should sound and you can always doubt: "is my box design now correct or not"?
Sometimes I had a bad day thinking my diy loudspeakers do not sound right but after making the test with real instruments I knew it was only my daily listening performance playing tricks with me.
And it was a nice experience - you can know when you have a loudspeaker which works good enough hearing no difference any more between recording and original instrument.
Do not use instruments for testing which change sound due to humidity like wooden flute or a drum with fur.
yes, they are in german. Maybe a smartfone with google translator makes them readable for you.
Concerning the recordings of instruments:
by having them recorded and simultaneously played in the listening room you have real control for checking the sound of your loudspeakers.
Usually you do not know how a recording should sound and you can always doubt: "is my box design now correct or not"?
Sometimes I had a bad day thinking my diy loudspeakers do not sound right but after making the test with real instruments I knew it was only my daily listening performance playing tricks with me.
And it was a nice experience - you can know when you have a loudspeaker which works good enough hearing no difference any more between recording and original instrument.
Do not use instruments for testing which change sound due to humidity like wooden flute or a drum with fur.
Yes, measurement will give the best results.
What we're not saying is that there are very many things that should be measured. So I'm not saying yes or no.. I'm talking about the way to approach each type of measurement
You select a driver which does what you need, where you need it. Then you EQ and control directivity with baffling as required.
You know all these things before you choose a driver.
thanks and i have understood that it is a challenging test signal
because it is difficult to reproduce Much more than a sinus signal
the ideal unit will give back a sw very similar to the input sw I know it is trivial but this is what accuracy is all about
not deshaping a signal
i am sure some designers have elaborated some kind of arbitrary waveforms to use in testing drivers together with the classic measurements
the fact that a sw is not a natural wave it does not meant that it cannot be used for testing
in testing amps nobody would complain using sw I do not understand why for passive parts they call the police Or an exorcist
they should stay calm Try and see Maybe different parts will behave differently
for instance i would like to see how caps and inductors of a same value but different design and build perfom in passing a sw
even just out of curiosity i am pretty sure there will be difference
actually i listen only to13k in the best case Maybe the range to focus can go from 40 to 15k ? it could be covered decently with a 2 way i guees
that is my goal after all
thanks a lot I had a life changing experience when i listened to full range speakers being used to the sound of small bookshelf
I do not exaggerated but for the first time i listened to music and i understood how important is the range from 100Hz down
for a realistic experience small speakers need a sub or two And it can be done even if i prefer a single speaker option Much prefer
i would measure if possible the speaker dispersion just to check
I have a reflecting room and to make the issue less impacting i would like speakers with narrow dispersion possibly
but the bass for its nature has a wide dispersion Unless is loaded with a horn Another very interesting option
Thanks a lot again Actually i notice that at least in studio monitors often lensesguides are used to control the mid and high drivers directivity
I guess it is to tame reflections from boundary surfaces
to understand how reflections can be devastating for sound just clapping in a reverberant room will help
the worst torture for Batman