Hello everyone,
Atm, my system is as follows:
B&W 804 Matrix
Forté Audio Model 3
PS Audio 6.1
Arcam rPhono
Rega P3 w/ Goldring 1042
I'm looking to upgrade my phono preamp and was looking at spending as much as €1k for something like the Rega Aria. But going down the DIY path might achieve the same/better results for less. I'm looking for as much RIAA accuracy as possible (my Arcam is rated at 0.2db, so I'd like to get to the 0.1db camp), low noise floor and good shielding/grounding since I've had hum issues in the past. I need it to feel like a real upgrade if I'm spending the money.
I thought about tubes, but since one of my main goals is improving SNR, I don't think that's a good idea. And to keep it cheaper, SS is the way to go imo.
MM and MC could be an option, unless you guys tell me a step-up in the future might yield better results. What I need is a few gain and capacitance options for MM and a Mono button if possible.
Is there something that fits all of this given how much I'd like to spend? I know I said €1k for the Rega, but if I can achieve the same/better for as much as half, I'd be a happy man.
PS: I'd not be the one building it. It would be a skilled engineer I know, so even though kits could be a solution, schematics are green light too.
Let's hear it. Thank you!
Atm, my system is as follows:
B&W 804 Matrix
Forté Audio Model 3
PS Audio 6.1
Arcam rPhono
Rega P3 w/ Goldring 1042
I'm looking to upgrade my phono preamp and was looking at spending as much as €1k for something like the Rega Aria. But going down the DIY path might achieve the same/better results for less. I'm looking for as much RIAA accuracy as possible (my Arcam is rated at 0.2db, so I'd like to get to the 0.1db camp), low noise floor and good shielding/grounding since I've had hum issues in the past. I need it to feel like a real upgrade if I'm spending the money.
I thought about tubes, but since one of my main goals is improving SNR, I don't think that's a good idea. And to keep it cheaper, SS is the way to go imo.
MM and MC could be an option, unless you guys tell me a step-up in the future might yield better results. What I need is a few gain and capacitance options for MM and a Mono button if possible.
Is there something that fits all of this given how much I'd like to spend? I know I said €1k for the Rega, but if I can achieve the same/better for as much as half, I'd be a happy man.
PS: I'd not be the one building it. It would be a skilled engineer I know, so even though kits could be a solution, schematics are green light too.
Let's hear it. Thank you!
To make a positive change in what you are describing, changing the phonostage isn’t where I’d spend any money. Take the 1000Euro +the trade in value of your P3 and get a new turntable.
As for suggestions to the question at hand, the Millett LR phono is the quietest phonostage I’ve ever heard, and sounds fantastic. Would need a SUT for MC, but that can be added if/when you change chartidges. http://www.pmillett.com/LR_phono.html
Although a complicated project, in my opinion the Salas FSP is a phonostage that can stand toe to toe with any phonostage ever. https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/simplistic-njfet-riaa.129126/page-970
As for suggestions to the question at hand, the Millett LR phono is the quietest phonostage I’ve ever heard, and sounds fantastic. Would need a SUT for MC, but that can be added if/when you change chartidges. http://www.pmillett.com/LR_phono.html
Although a complicated project, in my opinion the Salas FSP is a phonostage that can stand toe to toe with any phonostage ever. https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/simplistic-njfet-riaa.129126/page-970
My P3 with the external PSU feels and sounds like a great deck. The only thing I can think of I could enhance by upgrading the deck would probably be the noise floor? Still, I feel like the Phono Stage is what's holding the setup back. At least more than the deck. Why do you say otherwise?
On topic, thank you for the suggestions. From what I gathered, if you had to pick, you'd go with the Salas', correct? The parts for the Millett don't seem to be available on eBay either so that may be an issue.
Again, thank you very much for your reply!
@dastinger In my experience and opinion, regarding what you are trying to accomplish, changing the phonostage will not get you the benefit to the sound you are after. (Which is not to say it won’t benefit…it certainly will.)
Remember that a turntable (the whole LP playing interface, not just the thing that spins the platter) is a mechanical interface, and essentially a seismograph…
There are physical and microscopic peaks and valleys molded into plastic, and that plastic needs to be turned at a very precise and consistent speed.
The cartridge needs to track this groove which is constantly moving and changing, and there is the tonearm that has to let the cartridge stay in alignment with the groove as precisely and as with a light a touch as possible.
There is then a pointy peice of a hard material (diamond) that touches theses grooves, and that diamond then makes a lever start to wiggle in a way that is analogous to the peaks and grooves molded in the vinyl. Now this diamond/lever does not vibrate only to the groves, all the rest of the vibrations - airborne, mechanically coupled through the platform to the TT, through the dust cover, excess motor vibrations coupled to the TT, etc… all add up and is transferred to the cantilever in addition to the information you are actually after.
On the other end of the lever (cantilever) is either a magnet or a coil (MM or MC), and that will wiggle in sympathy with the grooves. Those wiggles will then excite electron flow in wither a coil or a magnet (MM or MC again) and we finally have an electrical signal. At this point it’s pretty straightforward to handle that (now electrical) signal.
In my experience, because of how much a physical/mechanical interface a TT actually is, the mechanical parts of a TT are much more important than one realizes. My opinion of Rega turntables, (and I do like them) after owning a few and having one exclusively for most of a decade and wearing out 3 cartridges with it, is that they are very nicely designed and cleverly engineered tonearm connected to a remarkably cheap and chintzy deck. And changing the turntable will make much more difference than you will expect.
Of course, changing the cartridge makes a huge effect as well, as they are analogous to speakers in how they operate, but in reverse. Nobody doubts for a second that one speaker will sound notably different from another - this is equally as true in cartridges.
As for choosing between Salas and Millett, I don’t have to … I have and enjoy both, so don't have to pick one over the other.
Remember that a turntable (the whole LP playing interface, not just the thing that spins the platter) is a mechanical interface, and essentially a seismograph…
There are physical and microscopic peaks and valleys molded into plastic, and that plastic needs to be turned at a very precise and consistent speed.
The cartridge needs to track this groove which is constantly moving and changing, and there is the tonearm that has to let the cartridge stay in alignment with the groove as precisely and as with a light a touch as possible.
There is then a pointy peice of a hard material (diamond) that touches theses grooves, and that diamond then makes a lever start to wiggle in a way that is analogous to the peaks and grooves molded in the vinyl. Now this diamond/lever does not vibrate only to the groves, all the rest of the vibrations - airborne, mechanically coupled through the platform to the TT, through the dust cover, excess motor vibrations coupled to the TT, etc… all add up and is transferred to the cantilever in addition to the information you are actually after.
On the other end of the lever (cantilever) is either a magnet or a coil (MM or MC), and that will wiggle in sympathy with the grooves. Those wiggles will then excite electron flow in wither a coil or a magnet (MM or MC again) and we finally have an electrical signal. At this point it’s pretty straightforward to handle that (now electrical) signal.
In my experience, because of how much a physical/mechanical interface a TT actually is, the mechanical parts of a TT are much more important than one realizes. My opinion of Rega turntables, (and I do like them) after owning a few and having one exclusively for most of a decade and wearing out 3 cartridges with it, is that they are very nicely designed and cleverly engineered tonearm connected to a remarkably cheap and chintzy deck. And changing the turntable will make much more difference than you will expect.
Of course, changing the cartridge makes a huge effect as well, as they are analogous to speakers in how they operate, but in reverse. Nobody doubts for a second that one speaker will sound notably different from another - this is equally as true in cartridges.
As for choosing between Salas and Millett, I don’t have to … I have and enjoy both, so don't have to pick one over the other.
Most switchable MM/MC preamplifiers have a compromise noise matching: current noise a bit on the high side for MM, voltage noise a bit on the high side for MC.
There are exceptions: preamplifiers with a high-transconductance JFET input stage can have a good noise match for both MM and MC. The ones with a bipolar input stage designed by people who don't understand noise optimization are typically fine for MC and quite bad for MM.
There are exceptions: preamplifiers with a high-transconductance JFET input stage can have a good noise match for both MM and MC. The ones with a bipolar input stage designed by people who don't understand noise optimization are typically fine for MC and quite bad for MM.
You can find two examples of low-noise MM amplifiers here, pages 38...43:
https://worldradiohistory.com/UK/Wireless-World/00s/Electronics-World-2003-10-S-OCR.pdf
Neither of them cost anything near euro 1000. Mind you, one section of the switch in figure 5 is drawn in the wrong position.
To be honest, the noise optimization has to be done really poorly for amplifier noise to become noticable above record surface noise.
https://worldradiohistory.com/UK/Wireless-World/00s/Electronics-World-2003-10-S-OCR.pdf
Neither of them cost anything near euro 1000. Mind you, one section of the switch in figure 5 is drawn in the wrong position.
To be honest, the noise optimization has to be done really poorly for amplifier noise to become noticable above record surface noise.
Thank you, sir! That was a great read.
It's interesting that you say that about the Regas plinth. That was my opinion regarding the older models (RP series etc), but everything on the P3+ looks much better built than what they did in the past. The bracing, the glass platter, everything looks solid and, honestly, the deck sounds really really good. You know Regas have a sound to them and I'm one of the guys who love it.
Having said that, the plastic sub-platter, the feet, anti-skating is something that I'd love to see improved. And I never considered how the lightweight plinth could affect the sound negatively. Given the fact that the Regas change quite noticeably from the P8 onwards, and considering I'm a Rega-head, do you think it'd be worth the price (€2k) or for that money, I could/should get something (much) better?
I'd love to keep this thread on-topic, but it's now impossible because you managed to change my focus completely (don't get me wrong, thank you for that). You mentioned taking the €1k + what the P3 could be worth (€500 more or less) and upgrading the deck. Do you think I can actually tell a huge difference with that kind of money? What would be your suggestions?
Thank you! I saved it and will be sending it to the guy who would build my phono stage... if I go ahead with the idea now ahahahah.
You mentioned that noise isn't noticeable on every well built phono stages. So what do you think makes a great phono stage over a good one, considering both should be silent?
Unfortunately, for moving magnet, there are phono stages that are really poor noise-wise. What's worse, due to unrealistic measuring conditions, their measured SNR figures often seem better than those of well-designed phono stages. The problem is that many designers grossly underestimate the effect of the equivalent input noise current of the amplifier and reduce the equivalent input noise voltage at the expense of an increased equivalent input noise current (that is, they use a bipolar transistor for the input stage and bias it at a way too high collector current, or use op-amps with such input stages). Measurements with either a shorted input or a 600 ohm resistive source don't show that the design is wrong. Details are in the article I linked to.
The worst example I've ever seen is the moving-magnet version of the Elektor Supra 2.0. They have used a whole bunch of expensive ultra low voltage noise op-amps (LT1028s) to make the noisiest moving-magnet preamplifier in history.
Besides noise, I think good RIAA conformity and especially good matching between the left and right frequency responses is important, but 0.2 dB is already very good. For moving magnet, I also like to be able to adjust the input capacitance. It has quite an impact between 10 kHz and 20 kHz.
There are some exotic designs that either have to be built into the turntable because they can't handle any cable capacitance ( https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/nick-sukhov-su-xxi-mm-phono-stage-85-dba-sn-ratio.387375/ ) or are tailored to one specific cartridge (for example, https://linearaudio.net/article-detail/2122 ). I never listened to any of those, but they certainly are different from ordinary designs, and they theoretically should be better.
The worst example I've ever seen is the moving-magnet version of the Elektor Supra 2.0. They have used a whole bunch of expensive ultra low voltage noise op-amps (LT1028s) to make the noisiest moving-magnet preamplifier in history.
Besides noise, I think good RIAA conformity and especially good matching between the left and right frequency responses is important, but 0.2 dB is already very good. For moving magnet, I also like to be able to adjust the input capacitance. It has quite an impact between 10 kHz and 20 kHz.
There are some exotic designs that either have to be built into the turntable because they can't handle any cable capacitance ( https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/nick-sukhov-su-xxi-mm-phono-stage-85-dba-sn-ratio.387375/ ) or are tailored to one specific cartridge (for example, https://linearaudio.net/article-detail/2122 ). I never listened to any of those, but they certainly are different from ordinary designs, and they theoretically should be better.
Hi as this is DIYaudio we normally recommend kits. The best MM phono you can get that is better than any commercial $3,000 unit is the Salas Folded Simplistic Phono amp. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...-pcb.241736/&usg=AOvVaw2RXY6YSio2AGTwdDsW7-io
It is quite ca complicated build, however sometimes they come up on the Market place thread, that's where I bought mine.
Cheers
It is quite ca complicated build, however sometimes they come up on the Market place thread, that's where I bought mine.
Cheers
I completely agree that using bipolars for MM amps should be done with great care and the LT1028 and AD797 are not the way to go because their current noise is way too high. But there are bipolars that can do the job like the NE5534 or OPA1632 to name a few of many.
And yes, MM preamps are often measured with shorted input giving fantastic but completely unrealistic results.
On the other hand, enough is enough and given the surface noise of an LP, ca -65dBA, an amplifier with Cart connected having a S/N of 75dBA ref 5mV@1Khz adds only 0.37dB to the surface noise. But even 72dBA with Cart connected is still perfectly acceptable just adding 0.79dB noise.
So, preamps having a S/N of above 75dBA are nice achievements, but not bringing any additional benefit.
What is to be regarded however is that overloading the input by scratches or dust varies a lot between preamps, partly because of having an insufficient overload margin, or an input stage that is too slow to digest the input pulse resulting in a "noisier" signal.
In general, Fets are better in this respect, but fast bipolar op-amps are just as well able to cope with these transients.
One last remark, the Linear Audio link you provided is unfortunately based on wrong assumptions, as will become obvious in a few months in a publication with detailed information based on extensive testing many different MM Carts with just as many different cantilever types.
Hans
Often talk about overload due to dust and scratches. On a normal quality LP, the "sand" is much lower than the useful signal level, and the clicks are rare, and also usually do not exceed the peak signal level. Clicks cannot have a too wide frequency spectrum, since after the electrical resonance of the cartridge near 20 kHz, there is a sharp drop in the frequency response. Why do you need an overload capacity of 20 dB or more? If the LP has clicks with a level 10 times higher than the useful signal, what kind of quality can we talk about?
We had this discussion a few years ago and opinion remains divided on the subject. The O/L margin thing got a lot of attention in the 1970's. Some research by Shure and others (Tomlinson Holman) showed the peak recording velocity of LP's reference 5cm/sec typically 5x this - so 14 dB or 25cm/sec. Some of the records tested showed peak values of 40 cm/sec with one approaching 70 cm/sec.
If you consider +14 dB to be acceptable for the average recording, you should add +6 dB for 'hot' recordings and a further 6dB to cater for high output cartridges - the typical MM output range being 2.5mV to 5mV.
You can see that 26 dB O/L margin is therefore not an unreasonable target. on +-15V rails with all active feedback EQ, 30dB is easily achievable. Since most phono EQ amps come before the volume control, that is the main way of catering for vinyl + cart + EQ output variations without recourse to any other signal gain adjustments.
There are many phono EQ amps being reviewed on Stereophile with O/L margins of 6-9 dB which is not really adequate.
If you consider +14 dB to be acceptable for the average recording, you should add +6 dB for 'hot' recordings and a further 6dB to cater for high output cartridges - the typical MM output range being 2.5mV to 5mV.
You can see that 26 dB O/L margin is therefore not an unreasonable target. on +-15V rails with all active feedback EQ, 30dB is easily achievable. Since most phono EQ amps come before the volume control, that is the main way of catering for vinyl + cart + EQ output variations without recourse to any other signal gain adjustments.
There are many phono EQ amps being reviewed on Stereophile with O/L margins of 6-9 dB which is not really adequate.
Yes, such records can be found, although rarely. Therefore, having an overload capacity of 20 dB is quite logical. But it's about something else - they often say that dust and clicks give some huge signals with a wide spectrum, which requires some wonderful properties from the input stage.
In what sense? Will not play such loud pops? So it's even better if the pops are clipped.
Well if you're able to put 100mV output at a good use you can get 30dB headroom left at +-12V... If that's enough you can get safely into an ADC supplied at +-5V .
I know I'm responsible for keeping the http://www.synaesthesia.ca/LOWNOISE.html fire alive , that being the first place I've read about the need of a 40db headroom.
That's the site of a fellow who got banned, syn08, we got some hot replies over a few years , but that being one of the first sources of information I read on phono, I can only respect him for pointing me in that direction.
I want to explain how I got to take this guy seriously even before reading Taylor's article for which I am forever thankfull to KCP to have pointed me to:
https://www.keith-snook.info/wirele...d-1977/Distortion in low-noise amplifiers.pdf
My first three phono preamps were based on tubes: ecc83 then d3a so I had no ideea what the maximum real world headroom needs would be.But then I listened a low noise j-fet one in Marantz PM 66 which was later reworked to the original design in Technics SU-V6 and tried with all sorts of op amps.That had +-17.5V supplies and it was the first time I realised I was bothered by the dust on vinyls at 33.3rpm. Yet it didn't bothered me at 45 rpm probably because of the higher vinyl SNR and the higher kinetic energy that the needle can use to remove the dust or just glide over it faster.Not sure if this is the right analogy but when you get over a hole in the ground at a higher speed in your car you glide over it and you don't feel it as hard as at a lower speed.At 45 rpm any phono preamp sounds wonderful. Ask a DJ...
Then I read about DENON poa 1100 harsh scratches on dusty vinyls reported by one user.
Then a friend of mine got a fancy SONY using jfets at the input and reported the same thing.
One day I listened an AIWA C22 which was supplied at +-15V , put out about 300mV at 5mv input yet the dust noise on vinyl became once again unnoticeable...So i looked into it and it was using a bipolar transistor on the input...Then asked my friend with the Sony to accompany me in this assesement of mine and we both realized that all the phono preamps employing bipolar transistors at the input that we tried don't have that annoying sound when playing a dusty record.The germanium ones behaved even better, but had audible noise...
We might be just too lazy with washing vinyls all day...
JLH with his Liniacs also had some very good insights on phono .
I've never been bothered by a phono preamp's own SNR unless it had too bad parts...If some pretends they can hear through the vinyl's own groove noise I can only envy them for having such a great noise reducing system in their brains.I don't...
I'm not saying there aren't jfets preamps that are imune to this thing apparently there are a few who have no such problems, just that they are well thought.
I know I'm responsible for keeping the http://www.synaesthesia.ca/LOWNOISE.html fire alive , that being the first place I've read about the need of a 40db headroom.
That's the site of a fellow who got banned, syn08, we got some hot replies over a few years , but that being one of the first sources of information I read on phono, I can only respect him for pointing me in that direction.
I want to explain how I got to take this guy seriously even before reading Taylor's article for which I am forever thankfull to KCP to have pointed me to:
https://www.keith-snook.info/wirele...d-1977/Distortion in low-noise amplifiers.pdf
My first three phono preamps were based on tubes: ecc83 then d3a so I had no ideea what the maximum real world headroom needs would be.But then I listened a low noise j-fet one in Marantz PM 66 which was later reworked to the original design in Technics SU-V6 and tried with all sorts of op amps.That had +-17.5V supplies and it was the first time I realised I was bothered by the dust on vinyls at 33.3rpm. Yet it didn't bothered me at 45 rpm probably because of the higher vinyl SNR and the higher kinetic energy that the needle can use to remove the dust or just glide over it faster.Not sure if this is the right analogy but when you get over a hole in the ground at a higher speed in your car you glide over it and you don't feel it as hard as at a lower speed.At 45 rpm any phono preamp sounds wonderful. Ask a DJ...
Then I read about DENON poa 1100 harsh scratches on dusty vinyls reported by one user.
Then a friend of mine got a fancy SONY using jfets at the input and reported the same thing.
One day I listened an AIWA C22 which was supplied at +-15V , put out about 300mV at 5mv input yet the dust noise on vinyl became once again unnoticeable...So i looked into it and it was using a bipolar transistor on the input...Then asked my friend with the Sony to accompany me in this assesement of mine and we both realized that all the phono preamps employing bipolar transistors at the input that we tried don't have that annoying sound when playing a dusty record.The germanium ones behaved even better, but had audible noise...
We might be just too lazy with washing vinyls all day...
JLH with his Liniacs also had some very good insights on phono .
I've never been bothered by a phono preamp's own SNR unless it had too bad parts...If some pretends they can hear through the vinyl's own groove noise I can only envy them for having such a great noise reducing system in their brains.I don't...
I'm not saying there aren't jfets preamps that are imune to this thing apparently there are a few who have no such problems, just that they are well thought.
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