Mhhh, yesterday I was thinking of member Linesource ( what a name!)...and how he always provided mock ups of what he intended to say.
So now I'm giving a similar type of contribution, as Linesource did.
So you want high directivity in room with less than 0.5 RT60 seconds and grunt in the bass, I'd put a honeycomb 15" SB acoustics in there. Keep it up for room ( ceiling & floor )reflections . Now he have the splendid D54 and below, with a special flange to keep CTC at minimum, a Dayton AMT2-4.
So the sub is 6 ohm and 92 dB sensitivity, the mid is what it is, the tweeter again 92 dB having 4 ohm, so with the same voltage sourge the speakers are in the same sensitivity range.
Whhops! I missed the woofer, midwoofer. That's going to take the place of the 12" in the bottom, shall be a 6-7" medium sensitivity midwoofer and shall be crossed at about 300 and 1600 Hz.
😎
So now I'm giving a similar type of contribution, as Linesource did.
So you want high directivity in room with less than 0.5 RT60 seconds and grunt in the bass, I'd put a honeycomb 15" SB acoustics in there. Keep it up for room ( ceiling & floor )reflections . Now he have the splendid D54 and below, with a special flange to keep CTC at minimum, a Dayton AMT2-4.
So the sub is 6 ohm and 92 dB sensitivity, the mid is what it is, the tweeter again 92 dB having 4 ohm, so with the same voltage sourge the speakers are in the same sensitivity range.
Whhops! I missed the woofer, midwoofer. That's going to take the place of the 12" in the bottom, shall be a 6-7" medium sensitivity midwoofer and shall be crossed at about 300 and 1600 Hz.
😎
Very helpful info IndianaJo. Thank you also picowallspeaker for the thoughts And the mock-up. That’s very nice! I have someone now who has agreed to help me redo the baffle as needed. They will help realign, cut holes, cover holes, whatever I need they said they can do so there’s a step.
Yes Moondog 55, I believe you’re correct. I think those are “realistic” (old RadioShack brand) speakers. They sound like junk. That’s why I’m keen to replace them also. It seems tweeters are cheap and Im happy to use either of the pairs I had mentioned or something else.
maybe I’ll need to be satisfied with low frequencies down in the 37 or 40 hz range and that uncomplicated the situation…?
Yes Moondog 55, I believe you’re correct. I think those are “realistic” (old RadioShack brand) speakers. They sound like junk. That’s why I’m keen to replace them also. It seems tweeters are cheap and Im happy to use either of the pairs I had mentioned or something else.
maybe I’ll need to be satisfied with low frequencies down in the 37 or 40 hz range and that uncomplicated the situation…?
In Windows and Excel, UniBox works fine and you can input whatever new driver data you want. Sensitivity/SPL and several of the others are calculated automatically from the data entered in the Drive Unit Parameters section. The cells in the Parameters of Single Unit section are locked because they are calculations and not inputs.
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I started to watch at another vendor, Usspeaker dot Com, because I was looking for italian drivers, such as Ciare or Faitalpro. So, keeping the fat sub ( or two: what about two...well...er two SBacoustics 16 ohm would cost much, multiplied X two...the bass program would be satisfied without doubts! ) the speaker needs to be > 92 dB/W/m sensitivity, so for a cheap solution I see a Faital Pro 6FE100, which is very popular, and which is 91 dB but...we count on the losses of the BIG coil(s)for the subwoofer filter. Ouch...what about winding them by yourself ? Friends !? 🥷
Scrolling down the 6-8" woofer page, Faital PRo makes a nice co-axyal: 6HX150
It's 267.50 $ multiplied X two but how about a W-M&T-W ? Priceless ! Clean baffle, thunderous bass...
Let's get over. In the first post you said Faital Pro on sale somewhere .
But 15" is big .
Not my cup of tea and not good for ...Oh, did I talk about Neumann monitors? Forget it!
I hate waveguides!
😒
Scrolling down the 6-8" woofer page, Faital PRo makes a nice co-axyal: 6HX150
It's 267.50 $ multiplied X two but how about a W-M&T-W ? Priceless ! Clean baffle, thunderous bass...
Let's get over. In the first post you said Faital Pro on sale somewhere .
But 15" is big .
Not my cup of tea and not good for ...Oh, did I talk about Neumann monitors? Forget it!
I hate waveguides!
😒
Someone said four way
well, crossover between the sub and the midbass is sort of a drama. Better to utilize (old) technology and use electronic crossovers.
That's why I like 3 ways: the crossover points are where component values are mid-size. Woofer's LP coil not > 5 mH and midrange cap 22 to 68 uF... well, that depends on driver's size that dictates where to cross to the other component.
That's why I like little 3 way😛
well, crossover between the sub and the midbass is sort of a drama. Better to utilize (old) technology and use electronic crossovers.
That's why I like 3 ways: the crossover points are where component values are mid-size. Woofer's LP coil not > 5 mH and midrange cap 22 to 68 uF... well, that depends on driver's size that dictates where to cross to the other component.
That's why I like little 3 way😛
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Well, the 16 ohm models are these
https://www.toutlehautparleur.com/u...s-sb34nrx75-16-impedance-16-ohm-12-pouce.html
which needs two per box ( who says?), so about 500 $ per box.
And those look fairly basic speakers, compared to this beast
https://www.toutlehautparleur.com/u...sb-audience-rosso-18sw800-8-ohm-18-pouce.html
https://www.toutlehautparleur.com/u...s-sb34nrx75-16-impedance-16-ohm-12-pouce.html
which needs two per box ( who says?), so about 500 $ per box.
And those look fairly basic speakers, compared to this beast
https://www.toutlehautparleur.com/u...sb-audience-rosso-18sw800-8-ohm-18-pouce.html
Oops, I meant the Nero 15, not the Rosso 18.
https://www.toutlehautparleur.com/u...-sb-audience-nero-15sw800-8-ohm-15-pouce.html
Then you wait for the new horn to mate with some compression driver from the same brand! Constant directivity horn...
Sinarbaja acoustics? Never Heard but seem to be the new trend.
Since I like speakers to be more ' human' i prefer the new brand Kartesian, from the french site. Ooohh yesss!! Kartesiannnn!
Those 145 optimized to behave good with a sub >100 Hz look gorgeous, neodimium helps ( also the Price, not counting subs &c.)
https://www.toutlehautparleur.com/u...-sb-audience-nero-15sw800-8-ohm-15-pouce.html
Then you wait for the new horn to mate with some compression driver from the same brand! Constant directivity horn...
Sinarbaja acoustics? Never Heard but seem to be the new trend.
Since I like speakers to be more ' human' i prefer the new brand Kartesian, from the french site. Ooohh yesss!! Kartesiannnn!
Those 145 optimized to behave good with a sub >100 Hz look gorgeous, neodimium helps ( also the Price, not counting subs &c.)
The neuro 15s look nice. Maybe I could stretch to afford a pair depending on shipping.
As far as woofers go, because I could wire them in series or parallel to achieve 8 ohms, are either of these worth considering? Or do they have undesirable qualities?
https://www.goldwood.com/goldwood-s...4ohm-12-woofer-450-watts-replacement-speaker/
or these?
https://www.seismicaudiospeakers.co...MIncmy7qTh_QIV3RXUAR1degJSEAQYAiABEgIetPD_BwE
As far as woofers go, because I could wire them in series or parallel to achieve 8 ohms, are either of these worth considering? Or do they have undesirable qualities?
https://www.goldwood.com/goldwood-s...4ohm-12-woofer-450-watts-replacement-speaker/
or these?
https://www.seismicaudiospeakers.co...MIncmy7qTh_QIV3RXUAR1degJSEAQYAiABEgIetPD_BwE
The sbacoustics sb34nrx75-16 is 13" dia instead of 12", 86 db 1w1m, less sensitive than a eminence lab12 89 db, 16 ohms instead of 8 ohms of a lab 12, 120 w rated instead of 400 w for the lab12, and costs the same if the euro is worth 1.1 dollar..
Passive crossover for a lab12 rolling off 6 db octave 100 hz would be a 13 mH. $$. Dual series set of SB34nrx75 would require same inductor. Active crossover 100 hz would require a rane nady or peavey crossover box, plus a 3rd amp channel.
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Does the choice become easier if I have a different midrange? I know it doesn’t change the low end extension, but does that help with the choices at all if I don’t need the woofer to come up to 1khz?
I think it's more about crossover choices and you already have the dome midrange and it is supposed to be a very good one when used properly. With a box that large low and deep bass shouldn't be a problem. But it is more difficult to get good [ smooth] integration when drivers are of greatly different diametres. You said you had only $500-USD to spend
Please take those photos of the existing subwoofers and the insides of that box as it is now.
Also of the existing crossover, there may be parts in it than could be reused.
It is more normal with a 3-Way speaker and 12" or larger woofers to use a dedicated midrange of round 4 to 6 inches in size,
A 3-Way is hard A 4-Way is very hard.
A 3.5 is much easier to do than a full proper 4-Way and can be very satisfying depending on the smaller woofer chosen.
You can use a 4R driver as the .5 with few problems
Please take those photos of the existing subwoofers and the insides of that box as it is now.
Also of the existing crossover, there may be parts in it than could be reused.
It is more normal with a 3-Way speaker and 12" or larger woofers to use a dedicated midrange of round 4 to 6 inches in size,
A 3-Way is hard A 4-Way is very hard.
A 3.5 is much easier to do than a full proper 4-Way and can be very satisfying depending on the smaller woofer chosen.
You can use a 4R driver as the .5 with few problems
I don't see why the fear of taking a 12" woofer to 1000 hz. The beta-12a and faital 12pr320 both have nice flat response curves up to 1000. Eminence haa a rise 1000-3000 which I would suppress with a 12 db/octave crossover at 1000.
I own very low distortion +- 3db response speakers where the 15" woofer goes 54 hz to 1800 hz. Tricky cabinet engineering was done though to get sound to disperse widely at 1800 hz. It is not just a rectangular box but a trapezoid, and there are careful folds of plastic in there. Previous generation SP2 had same 15" woofer going to 1200 hz; particularly noteable was - 3 db dispersion +-22.5 deg off center 500 hz to 1200 hz and above. That was rated 350 AES watts. That was a flat sided box. 1985 generation of these two drivers crossed over at 800 hz, which limited box AES wattage to 175, because of how much sound was going through the 70 watt tweeter. Pink noise is the test signal Peavey rates speaker wattage at.
Considering your budget I don't see the desire to put a 20-50 hz sub in the same cabinet as the 3 way 47 hz?-? as wise. 3 way crossover rated 75 w may cost $150 per box. Particularly if air coil inductors and polyprophylene caps are used (the good ones). Build another cabinet later for a sub, on funds you acquire later. Pick up an electronic sub summing + crossover, and a 3rd amp channel. On next years hobby money.
How high do you want to go? 20 khz is a generic standard, but most males can't hear that. I certainly can't, since Army summer camp 1969. I've been tested okay to 14 hz in 2008. Before 1969 the howls of the horizontal circuits of televisions in the department store used to offend me. Now my ears howl all the time up there if I think of it.
Here is a 3 way crossover, 400 & 5000 hz, only 6 db on the woofer. 11 components.
I own very low distortion +- 3db response speakers where the 15" woofer goes 54 hz to 1800 hz. Tricky cabinet engineering was done though to get sound to disperse widely at 1800 hz. It is not just a rectangular box but a trapezoid, and there are careful folds of plastic in there. Previous generation SP2 had same 15" woofer going to 1200 hz; particularly noteable was - 3 db dispersion +-22.5 deg off center 500 hz to 1200 hz and above. That was rated 350 AES watts. That was a flat sided box. 1985 generation of these two drivers crossed over at 800 hz, which limited box AES wattage to 175, because of how much sound was going through the 70 watt tweeter. Pink noise is the test signal Peavey rates speaker wattage at.
Considering your budget I don't see the desire to put a 20-50 hz sub in the same cabinet as the 3 way 47 hz?-? as wise. 3 way crossover rated 75 w may cost $150 per box. Particularly if air coil inductors and polyprophylene caps are used (the good ones). Build another cabinet later for a sub, on funds you acquire later. Pick up an electronic sub summing + crossover, and a 3rd amp channel. On next years hobby money.
How high do you want to go? 20 khz is a generic standard, but most males can't hear that. I certainly can't, since Army summer camp 1969. I've been tested okay to 14 hz in 2008. Before 1969 the howls of the horizontal circuits of televisions in the department store used to offend me. Now my ears howl all the time up there if I think of it.
Here is a 3 way crossover, 400 & 5000 hz, only 6 db on the woofer. 11 components.
Attachments
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I've got 12" drivers happy to 3k and beyond, they just don't have decent bass; I thought that those drivers that have decent bass and also would be happy to go to 1000Hz+ were beyond the OPs limited budget of $500 all up.
A Behringer CX 2310 can be had for as little as $110- in the USA and probably half that in good used condition but that presupposes the OPs Yamaha amp has Pre-outs.
Info link for the OP
https://www.lautsprechershop.de/hifi/bafflestep_en.htm
We all have our own ideas about what's best and it can get confusing.
I hope RevDev is still with us and isn't mired in the different opinions
A Behringer CX 2310 can be had for as little as $110- in the USA and probably half that in good used condition but that presupposes the OPs Yamaha amp has Pre-outs.
Info link for the OP
https://www.lautsprechershop.de/hifi/bafflestep_en.htm
We all have our own ideas about what's best and it can get confusing.
I hope RevDev is still with us and isn't mired in the different opinions
Moondog55, I’m Not sure how to achieve a 3.5 way but I’ll trust you on that. I need to get to disassembling them. I’ll get those pics. I have a crossover that I believe was just a kit. I’ll try to capture that too.
I’ll say again that I appreciate everyone helping out and suggesting. I hope to do it right, or as close as I can with the limitations I have. But I’m truly grateful for everyone looking and thinking about it to help me.
I’ll say again that I appreciate everyone helping out and suggesting. I hope to do it right, or as close as I can with the limitations I have. But I’m truly grateful for everyone looking and thinking about it to help me.
IMHO bafllestep correction Post 73 is for speakers installed on the front of a stage or an open area. I, and possibly OP, install my speakers against a hard wall. I don't need it. Wall gives +3 db boost, corner gives +6 db boost, to bass.
beta-12a is $120 and if you get over a certain amount part-express will ship in US 48 states for free. With crossover components OP could easily exceed that level. Nothing wrong with madisound and some others, just I haven't used them.
Beta-12a is 98 db 1w1m and faital 12pr320 is 97 db. Beta-12a flat wall response starts dropping 100 hz, faital 12pr320 starts dropping 200 hz. Fs 47 and 42 hz indicates IMHO either could dig pretty deep in a 161 l box. Vas 120 l and 113 l indicates the box bigger than VAS, 1.33, gives pretty good bass response.
beta-12a is $120 and if you get over a certain amount part-express will ship in US 48 states for free. With crossover components OP could easily exceed that level. Nothing wrong with madisound and some others, just I haven't used them.
Beta-12a is 98 db 1w1m and faital 12pr320 is 97 db. Beta-12a flat wall response starts dropping 100 hz, faital 12pr320 starts dropping 200 hz. Fs 47 and 42 hz indicates IMHO either could dig pretty deep in a 161 l box. Vas 120 l and 113 l indicates the box bigger than VAS, 1.33, gives pretty good bass response.
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I must admit I've not often bothered with baffle step except for using a .5 woofer I certainly don't use baffle step compensation in my crossovers.
A Point five driver [ .5] is one where you use a single inductor in series to only pass [ at 6dB per octave] frequencies lower than that calculated. You work out a 3-Way crossover and model it, see where the response is down 6dB [ approximately] and add an extra woofer at that point or at the -6dB / -3dBbaffle step frequency or even just because you want lots of chest thumping deep bass.
A lot of builders use that when making a WWT two way to get a bit more oomph, one of the woofers gets an extra coil in series. Most people us the same size driver but the extra .5 woofer can be bigger, much bigger.
https://www.parts-express.com/Dayto...minated-Iron-Core-Inductor-257-678?quantity=1
If you insert that 9mH inductor in series with a 4R driver that driver will only see [ theoretically] only those frequencies passed by the coil; which is about 120Hz and lower
9mH doesn't really get you into bass territory but you can use 2 inductors in series to get down to the desired frequency point but you pay for it in extra resistance and SPL losses there.
Low DCR high value inductors are not cheap. The high cost of 20mH inductors for bass frequencies would exceed the cost of going active which is why so many of us do it but active almost always sound better too.
The Beta 12A is a very good driver but it doesn't really do deep bass
A Point five driver [ .5] is one where you use a single inductor in series to only pass [ at 6dB per octave] frequencies lower than that calculated. You work out a 3-Way crossover and model it, see where the response is down 6dB [ approximately] and add an extra woofer at that point or at the -6dB / -3dBbaffle step frequency or even just because you want lots of chest thumping deep bass.
A lot of builders use that when making a WWT two way to get a bit more oomph, one of the woofers gets an extra coil in series. Most people us the same size driver but the extra .5 woofer can be bigger, much bigger.
https://www.parts-express.com/Dayto...minated-Iron-Core-Inductor-257-678?quantity=1
If you insert that 9mH inductor in series with a 4R driver that driver will only see [ theoretically] only those frequencies passed by the coil; which is about 120Hz and lower
9mH doesn't really get you into bass territory but you can use 2 inductors in series to get down to the desired frequency point but you pay for it in extra resistance and SPL losses there.
Low DCR high value inductors are not cheap. The high cost of 20mH inductors for bass frequencies would exceed the cost of going active which is why so many of us do it but active almost always sound better too.
The Beta 12A is a very good driver but it doesn't really do deep bass
seismic audio quake has 16 ohms, 97 db sensitivity, 150 watts, no frequency chart, no T-S parameters, no impedance chart, nothing to engineer your box off of. Put them in the box and call them pretty. Why would you need 2?
Goldwood GW-12PC4 has 93 db sensitivity, vas 73 L fs 32 qt .394 xmax 5 . 4 ohms. Drops 5 db 100 hz to 1000 hz. Drops only 5 db 100 hz to 30 hz BUT the test condition is half space, ie backed into a wall with the 3 db bass boost that gives. Other manufacturer's charts are flat wall responses without the 1/2 space bass boost. You'd need 2 of them to make near as much sound as a 98 db beta-12a. IMHO
David Weems equations indicate f3 47 hz out of beta-12a, maybe 37 hz in a 160 l box with a port. I don't own one to test it. I do own 2 1505-8kadt Fs 51 hz 99 db 1w1m in a 55 hz tuned ported box. I find the bass entirely adequate on organ records & Beethoven Appassionatta (low piano notes). Backed into a hard wall.
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Okay, check out Eminence cabinet design for Beta-12a, reached by clicking specifications on that driver page then clicking cabinet design for a download of a pdf file.
See page 5, large low tuned bass guitar cabinet. Watts are limited by excursion Xmax to 75. OP probably has 75 watts/ch out of his receiver named 150. Vb is 4.75 cuft, 2 ports 4" diameter 2.57" long. amplitude @ 75 w, 50-500 hz 117 db. 40 hz 111 db. 30 hz 105 db. 1000 hz 115 db. I'd postulate that is enough volume for a living room. So OP would have to put a divider in his cabinet to limit volume to 4.75 cuft.
I could go 125 db 54 hz 500 watts with my SP2(2004) but I don't want to. 115 db 44 hz. In my living room I have to wear earplugs to test SP2(2004) at 70 watts*2, the max one amp named "st120" puts out.
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There Is another italian based speaker factory, 18Sound
But we're still in the pro sound territory.
Like the 3way x-over schematic pictured above:
Sharing the complete system with drivers and horns and offsets would help to get the picture, and those L-pads are not needed at home.
Want to get admittance to DiyA ?
Build a mixer or a lowpass. Etching a board Is not required, now we go green 🤢 so perforated board...
If you are green in age =good sight, might venture in SMD, so no perf-!
That reminds me of their sitehttps://www.eighteensound.it/en/resources/suggested-designs/
But we're still in the pro sound territory.
Like the 3way x-over schematic pictured above:
Sharing the complete system with drivers and horns and offsets would help to get the picture, and those L-pads are not needed at home.
Want to get admittance to DiyA ?
Build a mixer or a lowpass. Etching a board Is not required, now we go green 🤢 so perforated board...
If you are green in age =good sight, might venture in SMD, so no perf-!
Long story but I need help
That applies to most of us, at least ..
So this thread has evolved to...?
The only 'usable' part for HiFi Is the Dynaudio. Also there's a Vifa tweeter.
Rest Is unknown, and we have a monkey coffin.
That has to be preserved, and would suggest a super-duper bass most are dreaming.
Correct usage of a dome mid Is to mate It with a woofer and a tweeter.
Now we're a Little bit lost because of the mid/hi sensitivity of the Dynaudio and look for woofers that exhibit High sensitivity BECAUSE of their large Sd but conflict with directivity at X-O frequency.
Just look at the woofers that would suit, even in the Pro, but still we're limited by cabinet dimension. And that 's an oxymoron, sort of, as usually It goes the other way, cabinet too small due to 'ambient decor'.
That applies to most of us, at least ..
So this thread has evolved to...?
The only 'usable' part for HiFi Is the Dynaudio. Also there's a Vifa tweeter.
Rest Is unknown, and we have a monkey coffin.
That has to be preserved, and would suggest a super-duper bass most are dreaming.
Correct usage of a dome mid Is to mate It with a woofer and a tweeter.
Now we're a Little bit lost because of the mid/hi sensitivity of the Dynaudio and look for woofers that exhibit High sensitivity BECAUSE of their large Sd but conflict with directivity at X-O frequency.
Just look at the woofers that would suit, even in the Pro, but still we're limited by cabinet dimension. And that 's an oxymoron, sort of, as usually It goes the other way, cabinet too small due to 'ambient decor'.