Thanks Hans, this is what I thought I saw. I'll have a look through my Picoscope measurements to see if they are any better. Otherwise, there is no use in trying to get a meaningful SNR measurement with either of these set-ups. A last option (if I want) is to change the head-amp to +30 or + 40dB, and see waht that brings. Otherwise, I can only use this set-up if I want to see if I can get rid of the 15-20 kHz junk (and the 50 Hz hum), once I know that this isn't aliasing I am looking at. My thoughts are that the turntable (which is direct drive) is generating noise, or that my tone-arm grounding leaves room for improvement. Having said that, the record's own groove noise is much higher than what is coming from the RIAA pre-amp / cart combo.
Previously I was using the Picoscope in a valve environment to trim phase-inverters and balance cathode currents on PP outputs to minimize 2nd harmonic distortion, for which it worked well, since the distortion levels are much higher than the noise floor.
Previously I was using the Picoscope in a valve environment to trim phase-inverters and balance cathode currents on PP outputs to minimize 2nd harmonic distortion, for which it worked well, since the distortion levels are much higher than the noise floor.
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Is the annotation "Soundcard + 20 dB head-amp, input soundcard shorted" correct? It seems more logical to short the 20 dB preamplifier input.
At 1 kHz:
-112 dBV with shorted phono preamplifier input and 20 dB of extra amplification
-125 dBV with (presumably) shorted 20 dB amplifier input
Subtracting noise powers: 10 dB log10(10-11.2 - 10-12.5) ~= -112.2233 dBV with shorted phono preamplifier input and 20 dB of extra amplification, corrected for measuring equipment noise
Corrected for the extra 20 dB: -132.2233 dBV at the phono preamplifier output with shorted phono preamplifier input
44.1 kHz sample rate, DFT length 65536 samples, Hann window, presumably scaled such that a tone in the middle of a bin is shown with the right voltage -> noise bandwidth 1.5 * 44100 Hz/65536 ~= 1.00937 Hz, I think
Noise density at the phono preamplifier output when its input is shorted: 10-132.2233/20 V/sqrt(1.00937 Hz) ~= 243.67 nV/sqrt(Hz)
Equivalent input noise voltage density: 243.67 nV/sqrt(Hz)/1030/20 ~= 7.7057 nV/sqrt(Hz)
Theoretical estimate: thermal noise of 953 ohm plus thermal noise of 100 ohm plus op-amp voltage noise: 6.4844 nV/sqrt(Hz)
All in all, the measured noise with shorted input is close to the calculated noise with shorted input. It would be interesting to see how much worse it gets with the real cartridge connected again.
At 1 kHz:
-112 dBV with shorted phono preamplifier input and 20 dB of extra amplification
-125 dBV with (presumably) shorted 20 dB amplifier input
Subtracting noise powers: 10 dB log10(10-11.2 - 10-12.5) ~= -112.2233 dBV with shorted phono preamplifier input and 20 dB of extra amplification, corrected for measuring equipment noise
Corrected for the extra 20 dB: -132.2233 dBV at the phono preamplifier output with shorted phono preamplifier input
44.1 kHz sample rate, DFT length 65536 samples, Hann window, presumably scaled such that a tone in the middle of a bin is shown with the right voltage -> noise bandwidth 1.5 * 44100 Hz/65536 ~= 1.00937 Hz, I think
Noise density at the phono preamplifier output when its input is shorted: 10-132.2233/20 V/sqrt(1.00937 Hz) ~= 243.67 nV/sqrt(Hz)
Equivalent input noise voltage density: 243.67 nV/sqrt(Hz)/1030/20 ~= 7.7057 nV/sqrt(Hz)
Theoretical estimate: thermal noise of 953 ohm plus thermal noise of 100 ohm plus op-amp voltage noise: 6.4844 nV/sqrt(Hz)
All in all, the measured noise with shorted input is close to the calculated noise with shorted input. It would be interesting to see how much worse it gets with the real cartridge connected again.
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Marcel,
The 243nV/rtHz@1kHz corresponds perfectly with the simulation in #119.
And with the 30dB gain this calculates of course into 7.7nV/rtHz@1kHz EIN.
It shows again how reliable noise prediction can be with LTSpice and proves that the Amp works perfectly.
Arjen got the spectrum (almost) right in the end after earlier attempts that were way off, bravo.
For the perfectionist a bit more gain from the second amp would also have shown the spectrum’s high end correctly
Hans
The 243nV/rtHz@1kHz corresponds perfectly with the simulation in #119.
And with the 30dB gain this calculates of course into 7.7nV/rtHz@1kHz EIN.
It shows again how reliable noise prediction can be with LTSpice and proves that the Amp works perfectly.
Arjen got the spectrum (almost) right in the end after earlier attempts that were way off, bravo.
For the perfectionist a bit more gain from the second amp would also have shown the spectrum’s high end correctly
Hans
The noise at high frequencies will get much stronger with the cartridge included, so that helps.
Yes, the caption should have read "3. Soundcard + 20 dB head-amp, input head-amp shorted"
Below are some more spectrum plots with cart attached.
1. Cart + RIAA amp + 20 dB pre-amp. This is with the RIAA amp fed from the internal 17V7 zener supply & DD motor/platter running
There is effectively - 80 dB / 50 Hz hum. I might try to run the RIAA amp from 2 x 9 V batteries and / or disconnect the DD motordrive and / or play around with my tone-arm grounding. There is a difficulty in that the DD drive electronics consist of two dedicated chips. The chip that drives the DD motor has a heatsink. This heatsink is internally connected to the V- supply. It is heatsinked to a subchassis (unisolated) and that subchassis is grounded to the bottom metal plate of the turntable together with the tone-arm ground. I have had to connect V- from the RIAA pre-amp, not to the minus of the zener in my supply (as you would normally expect to do), but close to the minus of this chip that drives the DD motor, to get rid of (low but) audible noise (with the volume turned all the way to max.) when switching the rpm's over from 33 -> 45 and v.v. The current draw has a spike in this moment. I can tell from the ripple voltage on the main power supply smooting cap and the supply to the motor drive drops by a volt or so for a moment until the rpm's have stabilized. I think the gain of the darlington combo may be running low in this case (due to beta-droop). I also see the voltage on the zener dropping when switching the rpm's around. It might deplete the zener current in this moment.
So, there are some low-level issues, however:
2. Cart + RIAA amp + 20 dB pre-amp, playing a quiet passage of a record
What can be seen is that all the pre-amp noise and hum drowns in the record's own groove noise.
It's worth considering.
Up to 16 kHz, I'd say this is the case. The junk from 16 - 20 kHz just disappears. I can still only hear to 12 kHz.
I would still like to see if I can address the 50 Hz hum and possibly some of the other pollution. Below is the power supply and grounding scheme.
There are two things to know:
My question is whether this looks good or not, and if not, whether there is something I could do to improve the hum and/or pollution.
There are two things to know:
- The DD Motor Drive PCB's V- connection (label 5) is connected via a driver IC's cooling plate to a metal sub assembly. This sub assembly is connected to the bottom plate of the turntable (ground) with a wire connection. This is how the situation already was before I mounted the RIAA amp inside.
- I had to connect the V- connection of the RIAA amp to label (5) at the DD Motor Drive PCB. This is counterintuitive. I first connected it to the zener's anode, then to label (13), but the result was an audible jitter when switching over the rpm's from 33 -> 45 and v.v. This is gone with connecting it to label (5) at the DD Motor Drive PCB.
My question is whether this looks good or not, and if not, whether there is something I could do to improve the hum and/or pollution.
Arjen,
A first question is, what about your Cart.
Most MM carts have a galvanic connection from one pin to their metal housing, which connects to the arm which in turn is connected to mains ground.
I see the ground connection to the arm but not the one to your cart.
And then it can be seen that the minus of the supply is connected at several points to the mains ground.
There lies a possible source for a ground loops, as you have already noticed that it makes a difference where you make the connections.
And finally your amplifier at the other end will also have it’s RCA input connected to yet another mains ground connection.
So what I would advice you as a test is to use batteries to feed you preamp to get some isolation.
Another thing to try is to insert a 10R resistor in the connection between power ground and mains ground from your motor drive PCB to break a possible ground loop.
Hans
A first question is, what about your Cart.
Most MM carts have a galvanic connection from one pin to their metal housing, which connects to the arm which in turn is connected to mains ground.
I see the ground connection to the arm but not the one to your cart.
And then it can be seen that the minus of the supply is connected at several points to the mains ground.
There lies a possible source for a ground loops, as you have already noticed that it makes a difference where you make the connections.
And finally your amplifier at the other end will also have it’s RCA input connected to yet another mains ground connection.
So what I would advice you as a test is to use batteries to feed you preamp to get some isolation.
Another thing to try is to insert a 10R resistor in the connection between power ground and mains ground from your motor drive PCB to break a possible ground loop.
Hans
My preferred arrangement would look like this:
Both V+ and V- from the supply will be polluted by ripple current from the motor drive, and maybe some PSU leakage current, too.
Thus, the only clean GND that you have for input and output reference is the connection to the chassis, from the motor controller. Everything must reference to there. A star point GND.
And I would certainly add a regulator (LM317 or similar) for the RIAA Amp supply, which must have an input RC filter (like 10R + 100uF) and output capacitor, both caps again referencing the star GND.
The supply input at the RIAA amp should have a few ohms of isolation resistance and local decoupling capacitor for the opamp.
This way the RIAA amps only sees a small DC current on its GND connection but no AC ripple so the output, with shorted input, should be hum-free. If it is not, you may have magnetic hum pickup on the PCB, the input forming a loop antenna (can easily be tested with a tape head demagnetizer). The RIAA amp enclosure must connect to its GND. The cart GND might be better connected to the amp PCB GND rather than the star GND, unless great care is applied to avoid forming a magnetic pickup loop there (twist wires).
One open question is if the TT chassis is earth-grounded or not, in combination of the main amp (or measurement setup) being earth-grounded or not. It is very easy to pick up noise from this, given the unbalanced connection. The quick test is to short the output of the RIAA amp, if you see hum then the connection is the problem.
Both V+ and V- from the supply will be polluted by ripple current from the motor drive, and maybe some PSU leakage current, too.
Thus, the only clean GND that you have for input and output reference is the connection to the chassis, from the motor controller. Everything must reference to there. A star point GND.
And I would certainly add a regulator (LM317 or similar) for the RIAA Amp supply, which must have an input RC filter (like 10R + 100uF) and output capacitor, both caps again referencing the star GND.
The supply input at the RIAA amp should have a few ohms of isolation resistance and local decoupling capacitor for the opamp.
This way the RIAA amps only sees a small DC current on its GND connection but no AC ripple so the output, with shorted input, should be hum-free. If it is not, you may have magnetic hum pickup on the PCB, the input forming a loop antenna (can easily be tested with a tape head demagnetizer). The RIAA amp enclosure must connect to its GND. The cart GND might be better connected to the amp PCB GND rather than the star GND, unless great care is applied to avoid forming a magnetic pickup loop there (twist wires).
One open question is if the TT chassis is earth-grounded or not, in combination of the main amp (or measurement setup) being earth-grounded or not. It is very easy to pick up noise from this, given the unbalanced connection. The quick test is to short the output of the RIAA amp, if you see hum then the connection is the problem.
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And to avoid any GND loop issues, one could simple use an isolated DC/DC converter with a bipolar output. That would do away with the DC bias and output cap charging as well.
10 EUR well spent: https://www.mouser.de/ProductDetail/RECOM-Power/R1DA-151212?qs=waQl70lBfV3lvkKwDaInZw==
Simple RC filters at the output usually will do, and a simple Zener dropper at the input.
10 EUR well spent: https://www.mouser.de/ProductDetail/RECOM-Power/R1DA-151212?qs=waQl70lBfV3lvkKwDaInZw==
Simple RC filters at the output usually will do, and a simple Zener dropper at the input.
First and foremost, I would try to keep the loop area from cartridge via C2 to the op-amp and back via R12, C8 and the (ground) return wire to the cartridge as small as possible, because any 50 Hz hum voltage induced in this loop gets amplified some 220 times. In that sense, Arjen's set-up looks better to me than KSTR's.
The second step is to ensure that ground loops cannot cause any extra hum currents to flow through the return wire of the cartridge. Hans's first question relates to that.
Arjen, what do the ground symbols with a single stripe in the schematic mean? Just a reminder that it is the ground, or a connection to a shield or something else?
Does the turntable have protective earth (veiligheidsaarde) or only a ground wire to hook up to the amplifier? Hans seems to assume the former, but I've never seen a turntable with a protective earth connection. Fortunately not, as protective earth on unbalanced equipment only causes extra hum issues.
If the circuit needs to work with or without the ground connection on the cartridge Hans asked about, it may be useful to connect a 47 ohm resistor in series with C8 on the ground side. The return wire of the cartridge then goes to the point where C8 is connected to the extra 47 ohm.
The second step is to ensure that ground loops cannot cause any extra hum currents to flow through the return wire of the cartridge. Hans's first question relates to that.
Arjen, what do the ground symbols with a single stripe in the schematic mean? Just a reminder that it is the ground, or a connection to a shield or something else?
Does the turntable have protective earth (veiligheidsaarde) or only a ground wire to hook up to the amplifier? Hans seems to assume the former, but I've never seen a turntable with a protective earth connection. Fortunately not, as protective earth on unbalanced equipment only causes extra hum issues.
If the circuit needs to work with or without the ground connection on the cartridge Hans asked about, it may be useful to connect a 47 ohm resistor in series with C8 on the ground side. The return wire of the cartridge then goes to the point where C8 is connected to the extra 47 ohm.
Thanks to all who have replied. It's a lot to take in.
Originally, when my turntable did not have an amplifier built in, it did have a ground wire to hook up next to the amplifier's MM input. The tone-arm and metal sub ***'y were grounded at the turntables ground point, from that point there was a ground wire running to the amp. Both L + R channels from the cart were fed out completely seperately through a shielded cable. The shield of ths cable was first connected to ground at the amp input. I do not know how the power amp connected the shields of the MM input to the metal chassis, hence the '?' at that point.
Below is an updated schematic of the current situation showing the cart / headshell shielding arrangement and a schematic of the original situation before the built-in pre-amp.
I will wait a little to see if this generates new feedback, otherwise I am going to first start with Marcel's suggestions.
1. Updated supply / shield / ground scheme
2. Original shield / ground scheme
Those are meant to represent the 'Neutral' connection, i.e. V-, or the reference point for V+. This is to distinguish between the 'ground' symbols, which represent a connection to the main chassis of the turntable.
The tone arm (metal) is isolated from the head shell. The right channel's coil 'neutral' of the cart is connected to the cart's shield and a shield in the head shell above the 4 small wires connecting the cart to the head-shell lead-out pins. See also the new schematic.
Both my turntable and power amp do not have a protective earth connection. Both have just 2 prong L-N supplies.
Originally, when my turntable did not have an amplifier built in, it did have a ground wire to hook up next to the amplifier's MM input. The tone-arm and metal sub ***'y were grounded at the turntables ground point, from that point there was a ground wire running to the amp. Both L + R channels from the cart were fed out completely seperately through a shielded cable. The shield of ths cable was first connected to ground at the amp input. I do not know how the power amp connected the shields of the MM input to the metal chassis, hence the '?' at that point.
Below is an updated schematic of the current situation showing the cart / headshell shielding arrangement and a schematic of the original situation before the built-in pre-amp.
I will wait a little to see if this generates new feedback, otherwise I am going to first start with Marcel's suggestions.
1. Updated supply / shield / ground scheme
2. Original shield / ground scheme
When I short the cart's input at the head-shell, the spectrum is hum free, but not free from spikes @ 1, 2 & 3 kHz See graph 4 in post #160.
When you short the cartridge pins, the loop I wrote about is still there and any ground loops are still there. Hence, the fact that it is then hum-free (according to your measurements, the hum drops at least 30 dB, into the noise floor) must mean that, at least at 50 Hz, magnetic crosstalk to the loop I wrote about is already under control and there is no ground loop issue either. Following my advice with the extra 47 ohm resistor most probably won't achieve anything, as it solves an issue you don't have.
The hum you get with the cartridge not shorted could be due to magnetic crosstalk straight to the cartridge itself, or electric crosstalk (which seems unlikely, as it is easy to shield and you have shielded everything), or it could be due to power supply ripple after all, but then it should be mostly 100 Hz rather than 50 Hz.
The level of the 50 Hz hum is low: -60 dBV at the 20 dB amplifier output, so 100 uV at the phono amplifier output, about 450 nV at the phono ampllfier input.
The hum you get with the cartridge not shorted could be due to magnetic crosstalk straight to the cartridge itself, or electric crosstalk (which seems unlikely, as it is easy to shield and you have shielded everything), or it could be due to power supply ripple after all, but then it should be mostly 100 Hz rather than 50 Hz.
The level of the 50 Hz hum is low: -60 dBV at the 20 dB amplifier output, so 100 uV at the phono amplifier output, about 450 nV at the phono ampllfier input.
There are three noise coupling mechanisms that come to mind; capacitive, inductive and in loop series voltage (ground loop). I had a turntable that I tried to address all three, going as far as to rewire with twisted wires re-routed as best I could do and that darn think still had power line noise in one channel that was 10 dB higher than the other. It was down around the level of the noise floor of any record being played so I don't think it is bothering the new owner.
I've done a calculation to see if the noise current around 6 kHz is in the right ballpark. It is.
Guessing that the cartridge inductance is of the order of 500 mH, I calculated a noise current density of about 0.87 pA/√Hz for the 47 kohm termination resistor, op-amp and cartridge thermal noise (probably mostly from iron losses at 6 kHz) together. That seems quite reasonable.
Both measurements in posts # 166 and # 160 are with the motor/platter running. I did do tests with battery feeding the RIAA amp and with the motor / platter off. There are 2 ^3 = 8 combinations possible of 1. cart inserted / input to RIAA amp shorted, 2. battery fed / zener fed, 3. motor platter on / off. I have tested 6 of these possible combinations. I will list them below. It does make a difference for hum and spurious signals. Everything is with the +20 dB amp inbetween.
The first 3 graphs are all with the input to the RIAA amp shorted (at the cart's connection).
1.1 Input RIAA shorted / Zener fed / Motor-platter running
1.3 Input RIAA shorted / Battery fed / Motor-platter running
1.4 Input RIAA shorted / Battery fed / Motor-platter off
Possible case '1.2 Input RIAA shorted / Zener fed / Motor-platter off' has not been performed.
Apart from the little spikes @ 1, 2 & 3 kHz, I see no difference.
The next three graphs are all with the cart inserted.
2.1 Cart inserted / Zener fed / Motor-platter running
2.3 Cart inserted / Battery fed / Motor-platter running
2.4 Cart inserted / Battery fed / Motor-platter off
Possible case '2.2 Input RIAA shorted / Zener fed / Motor-platter off' has not been performed.
Now that I look at the results closely, I don't trust graph 2.3. It's battery fed, yet shows a small 100 Hz spike, where none of the others do.
There is a significant difference between situation 2.1 and 2.3 in that the 50 Hz hum drops 15 dB, the spikes from 250 Hz - 1 kHz are severely reduced (but not completely disappeared) and the spurious signals at the top-end show some 10 dB reduction.
I should really re-do 2.3 and 2.4 and do 2.2 before asking anyone to comment.
The first 3 graphs are all with the input to the RIAA amp shorted (at the cart's connection).
1.1 Input RIAA shorted / Zener fed / Motor-platter running
1.3 Input RIAA shorted / Battery fed / Motor-platter running
1.4 Input RIAA shorted / Battery fed / Motor-platter off
Possible case '1.2 Input RIAA shorted / Zener fed / Motor-platter off' has not been performed.
Apart from the little spikes @ 1, 2 & 3 kHz, I see no difference.
The next three graphs are all with the cart inserted.
2.1 Cart inserted / Zener fed / Motor-platter running
2.3 Cart inserted / Battery fed / Motor-platter running
2.4 Cart inserted / Battery fed / Motor-platter off
Possible case '2.2 Input RIAA shorted / Zener fed / Motor-platter off' has not been performed.
Now that I look at the results closely, I don't trust graph 2.3. It's battery fed, yet shows a small 100 Hz spike, where none of the others do.
There is a significant difference between situation 2.1 and 2.3 in that the 50 Hz hum drops 15 dB, the spikes from 250 Hz - 1 kHz are severely reduced (but not completely disappeared) and the spurious signals at the top-end show some 10 dB reduction.
I should really re-do 2.3 and 2.4 and do 2.2 before asking anyone to comment.