To simplify the question about solid and litz wire coil audio quality boils down to hearing any difference of the "skin affect" if any that occurs at a given power level (@250 Watts RMS) and highest (crossover) frequency of @2500 Hz...
Should pose the question directly to Chris at Solen to gain feedback from them on the question of litz coil merits. against solid core. This would of course be comparing my specific value of 0.91 mH in 18 AWG for solid core and 16 AWG litz coil where DC resistance is the very same for both at 0.45 ohm.
Should pose the question directly to Chris at Solen to gain feedback from them on the question of litz coil merits. against solid core. This would of course be comparing my specific value of 0.91 mH in 18 AWG for solid core and 16 AWG litz coil where DC resistance is the very same for both at 0.45 ohm.
AllenB,
I would beg to argue the affects of the shunting component quality if all parameters of: inductance, capacitance & DC resistance are exactly the same. Keeping in mind all X-over components have inherent inductance, capacitance & DC resistance, whether its an inductor, capacitor or resistor, even cables to and from X-over to terminals of cabinet and drivers. Everything makes a difference but the magnitudes range from not audible at all to negligible all the way to striking!
I would beg to argue the affects of the shunting component quality if all parameters of: inductance, capacitance & DC resistance are exactly the same. Keeping in mind all X-over components have inherent inductance, capacitance & DC resistance, whether its an inductor, capacitor or resistor, even cables to and from X-over to terminals of cabinet and drivers. Everything makes a difference but the magnitudes range from not audible at all to negligible all the way to striking!
That is true, and enough so that you have to use a former when winding Litz youself. That solid substrate makes it that much easier.
Maybe, but no real need.
Solid 1.60mm diameter wire can be substituted by a bundle of way more flexible 4 x 0.8 mm diameter ones, or even 6 or 8, thi9nner ones, as long as total area is the same.
Litz wire is king winding RF and IF coils, where maximum Q is needed for ultra selectivity which helps pulling microvolt signals BURIED in noise and other frequencies, harmonics, etc. ; not the case here at all.
If you worry about skin effect, multiple thin ones (easy to wind in a single bundle) are a practical solution.
In fact, many SMPS transformers (where it does matter) are wound that way.
Maybe they know something about the subject?
No substantive measurable difference.
Just an overall subjective impression over time (from project to project). ..and as mentioned before - not always beneficial and in some instances generating a worse subjective result. I don't have much of an expectation bias - I start with active-digital, then I progress to *cheap passive parts, then I start-into trying certain substitutions and sometimes the more expensive part provides a better (subjective) result, sometimes it doesn't, and sometimes it's a worse result.
*though I still stay-clear of Electrolytic cap's - and that may well be an expectation bias.
This is purely subjective, no don't spend the money, I did extensive testing with both heavy gauge coil wire and Litz coils and heard no difference, I have heard huge differences in capacitors but not inductors. Besides a slightly different DCR, I did not find any measurable difference in coils or caps. Good paper and oil or copper foil and oil caps blew me away.
I think it has been said before: The one and only difference between solid and litz wire of the same cross section is the decreased skin effect with litz, which itself is a function of frequency. This directly transforms into a smaller increase of DC resistance with litz with increased frequency. Now, some questions arise:
- What is the total difference in DC resistance between litz and solid wire in the upper audio frequency range?
- Is this difference significant in relationship with all DC resistances involved (voice coil, resistors deliberately put into the xover network...)?
In my opinion, litz wire in xover inductors mostly, if not at first, serves for some clever companies to part audiophools with their money - which isn't difficult at all.
Btw, there's some other really weird thing related to xovers: Charge coupled capacitors, afaik introduced by JBL. Anyway, this may become theme for another thread some time.
Best regards!
- What is the total difference in DC resistance between litz and solid wire in the upper audio frequency range?
- Is this difference significant in relationship with all DC resistances involved (voice coil, resistors deliberately put into the xover network...)?
In my opinion, litz wire in xover inductors mostly, if not at first, serves for some clever companies to part audiophools with their money - which isn't difficult at all.
Btw, there's some other really weird thing related to xovers: Charge coupled capacitors, afaik introduced by JBL. Anyway, this may become theme for another thread some time.
Best regards!
Yes, and the first thing to do is clarify the name. 😉 These capacitors are being biased. Charge coupling means something else.
Curious, where did you get the crossover schematic? Looks like something I designed i the 1990's, no seriously!
Ok, Allen. I've transferred the term in exactly this context from the audioheritage board. I'll start another thread, 'cause I don't manage to get neither the purpose nor the physical background (other than parting audiophools from their money, of course 😉).
Best regards!
It modifies the harmonic distortion by placing a DC Voltage across the capacitor.. (and yes I know that name has been around for years now, I don't remember how it started 😉 )
gdillon:
The crossover schematic is for the noted (two) Focal 5K013L mid/bass + Accuton (Ceratech) C2-11 tweeter MTM setup. The original concept of this Aria 5 speaker design was from Joseph D'Appolito yet instead of the original Focal T90K tweeter, the Accuton (much better) is implemented. I understand at the time (1994) that the crossover was checked by a speaker designer from Paradigm. I recently have tweaked the crossover design [that you see in the schematic I have shown as the final version] with use of Jeff Bagby's (RIP dear Jeff) PCD v8.0 and XSIM v1.2 after creating the ZMA/FRD files form original Focal/Accuton data sheets. Yes a dated design from the 1990's but the enclosure for these drivers is also something special and microdynamics of the design/implementation rivals electrostatics I auditioned back in '90's! I still enjoy these speakers immensely after 27 years!! They are used with 2 (stereo) transmission line subwoofer cabinets that contain 12" Focal woofers/each. 20Hz no problem!!!
The crossover schematic is for the noted (two) Focal 5K013L mid/bass + Accuton (Ceratech) C2-11 tweeter MTM setup. The original concept of this Aria 5 speaker design was from Joseph D'Appolito yet instead of the original Focal T90K tweeter, the Accuton (much better) is implemented. I understand at the time (1994) that the crossover was checked by a speaker designer from Paradigm. I recently have tweaked the crossover design [that you see in the schematic I have shown as the final version] with use of Jeff Bagby's (RIP dear Jeff) PCD v8.0 and XSIM v1.2 after creating the ZMA/FRD files form original Focal/Accuton data sheets. Yes a dated design from the 1990's but the enclosure for these drivers is also something special and microdynamics of the design/implementation rivals electrostatics I auditioned back in '90's! I still enjoy these speakers immensely after 27 years!! They are used with 2 (stereo) transmission line subwoofer cabinets that contain 12" Focal woofers/each. 20Hz no problem!!!
Kay Pirinha,
Do not mix terminology and ask what DC resistance is present at a certain frequency as DCR is for Direct Current only. What you would ask is what Inductive Reactance is present at a certain frequency for an Inductor and Capacitive Reactance for a Capacitor respectively...
Do not mix terminology and ask what DC resistance is present at a certain frequency as DCR is for Direct Current only. What you would ask is what Inductive Reactance is present at a certain frequency for an Inductor and Capacitive Reactance for a Capacitor respectively...
gdillon,
Thanks for your comments (anecdotes) of your personal observations that there's not much to discuss in audio quality differences between solid & litz coils (albeit with similar DCR). I posed this question to Solen directly and (so far) they have resisted any comments in return. Indeed I am experiencing big differences in capacitors from Standard Solen fast caps to units like Clarity CSA or Mundorf Supremes.
Thanks for your comments (anecdotes) of your personal observations that there's not much to discuss in audio quality differences between solid & litz coils (albeit with similar DCR). I posed this question to Solen directly and (so far) they have resisted any comments in return. Indeed I am experiencing big differences in capacitors from Standard Solen fast caps to units like Clarity CSA or Mundorf Supremes.
Wow this is all ancient history now. The the best of my Knowledge the original Aris 5 with the Accuton tweeter was created by Swan Speakers in the early 90's. Swan was Joe D'Appolito and Jim Bock. I went to visit their room at CES in something like 92?? cant remember. Jim offered the built crossovers for $750 which was a lot when I was a kid. The problem is that they were designed completely wrong and did not function correctly. I redesigned them and made several of the Systems for several people, the values were super close to what you posted, anyway that was a terrific little speaker and fun to build, glad to see that you are still using them, Im just getting back into building after a 20 year break, just got LEAP and LMS running which was no easy task! Enjoy.
Im not saying that difference don't exist in coils, I actually conducted a listening group using a very coherent system and all 4 of us could not hear a difference but please note that we were only listening to coil changes for a midbass / midrange driver, a Focal Audiom W cone I believe, We did not change the coli if the HP circuit so there may be differences there, just don't know. I How are you liking the Mundorf caps, have not yet tried them, are the supreme the way to go?
G
Of course the skin effect impacts on DC resistance. Reactance (XL = 2πfL) definitely is not altered by the skin effect! But the inductor's impedance Z = sqrt (XL² + R²) might be altered. Anyway, as usually a xover inductor's reactance is much bigger than it's DC resistance, the impact of a variation of the latter deminishes even more.
Best regards!
gdillon,
Attached is the original X-over I was originally prescribed and used for 27 years until now when I tweaked it including retrofitting Clarity CSA caps (very nice!) for 3rd order tweeter section. As you will see only minor changes to overall X-over now. The Focal Poly/Kevlar sandwich 5K013L's are so responsive and lighting fast! The Accuton tweet is absolutely wonderful as well - they were less than 1/2 the cost in 1994 compared to Accuton's updated versions today which will require you to let go of a $ G-note CAD for a pair these days. I understand the original x-over was cross checked by Peter Schuck of Paradigm back then. Wow, the good old days when I was 1/2 my current age!!
Have fun with LEAP/LMS again now that you've jumped back into the hobby!
Cheers,
Gordon
Attachments
I couldn't find any data for the tweeter...could we have some inductance measured for these speakers?
The Mundorf Supremes proved to by sweeter and less aggressive than the Solen SA Tin Foil/Poly's. This comparison was on the 2nd order section of x-over on a Dynaudio Esotec D260 tweeter. As I had mentioned before consider Clarity CSA series as well - big bang for the buck I'd say. Would like to try the Jantzen Superior Z-Caps one day but they are getting up there in price as I have heard rave reviews about them.