1. So? What about omnis, they don't disappear?
2. What does this mean, room acoustics are at a level higher? Is this quantifiable?
3. Is the speaker able to stop faster than the waveform stops? I should think so, considering how "slow" audio is compared to the capabilities of 21st-century transducers.
Hear, hear!!!
Please don't take the word of any of the big-name guys for what this or that sounds like. I have my preferences, sometimes expressed rather strongly, but most audiophiles and music lovers have tastes different than mine. Most of the time I'm out of step with what the magazines and big-name reviewers think is great - I hear the same thing, and think my Toyota car stereo sounds better. (Not being cute, either - I've heard quite a few $100,000 systems where I preferred what I heard on the car stereo on the way home.)
It can't be emphasized enough to form your own tastes, and not to follow industry trends. I am especially appalled that $tereophile and other magazines sell CD's that train you to listen in a certain way - no no no! Listen in your own way, for your own pleasure.
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For those who haven't actually read the statement of the test goals and/or the results, the test was set up to evaluate the speakers ability to create a plausible auditory scene. That was all. See here: http://home.provide.net/~djcarlst/SLC.htm. As gedlee noted earlier in this thread, the results were statistically insignificant and seemingly David Clark agreed. So there aren't too many conclusions one can draw from it. gainphile's title for this thread is kind of misleading.
An anecdote: A friend brought his Mackie 624 monitors over to my place a few years ago. These were highly regarded for their accurate and clean sound. We listened to these first. They were impressive, for their performance, size and price. Sound familiar so far? Then we turned on the Orions. Game over: the sound from the monitors seemed like a caricature of the music from the Orions. He now has Orions.
Thanks to whoever linked to SL's own listening tests of the Behringers vis-a-vis the Orions. As usual, he nailed it: his description of the monitors presenting a small rectangular window into the auditory scene fits the Mackies perfectly.
@dantheman,
Dan, I'd like to listen to the Behringers though I have an idea what to expect based on the Mackies. Perhaps you can bring them over to my house some time? I live in Sunnyvale which is next door to where you live.
Other local members are welcome to come by too. If you heard the Orions at Burning Amp, you know that the sound truly sucked. The room at BAF was a very large concrete cavern with echo and reverb times off the chart. You can get a better understanding of the Orion's actual nature at my house.
BTW, I'm one of those believers from that forum "over there". Never been happier with my Orions than now, after having them over six years. It's so nice to be off the hamster wheel.
- Eric
An anecdote: A friend brought his Mackie 624 monitors over to my place a few years ago. These were highly regarded for their accurate and clean sound. We listened to these first. They were impressive, for their performance, size and price. Sound familiar so far? Then we turned on the Orions. Game over: the sound from the monitors seemed like a caricature of the music from the Orions. He now has Orions.
Thanks to whoever linked to SL's own listening tests of the Behringers vis-a-vis the Orions. As usual, he nailed it: his description of the monitors presenting a small rectangular window into the auditory scene fits the Mackies perfectly.
@dantheman,
Dan, I'd like to listen to the Behringers though I have an idea what to expect based on the Mackies. Perhaps you can bring them over to my house some time? I live in Sunnyvale which is next door to where you live.
Other local members are welcome to come by too. If you heard the Orions at Burning Amp, you know that the sound truly sucked. The room at BAF was a very large concrete cavern with echo and reverb times off the chart. You can get a better understanding of the Orion's actual nature at my house.
BTW, I'm one of those believers from that forum "over there". Never been happier with my Orions than now, after having them over six years. It's so nice to be off the hamster wheel.
- Eric
ZilchLab said:Not really -- Orion is a niche of acoustic concert hall realism enthusiasts; the other 97% of listeners have different priorities.
Look at SL's playlist; Pink Floyd and Led Zep are simply not on the radar....
If you look at Linkwitz' list of "well recorded sound from [his] CD collection" at his website (Music and sounds) you'll find music that is mostly similar to the 10 of 17 on the CD he used with the Behringer. What about the other 7 on that CD? Were they mediocre classic rock recordings with no spatial information in the? Who knows. But on his website he has some Pink Floyd, Eagles, Santana, Stevie Ray Vaughan, and Joe Cocker.
One can't evaluate speakers for "plausible auditory scenes" with typical rock recordings because they're either synthetic studio productions or live soundboard feeds. There is one excellent rock recording by Ani di Franco -- Virtue from up up up up up up -- that has some space in it caught on tape by minimal miking. Jackson Browne's Naked Ride Home CD is perhaps the cleanest pop/rock album I have, but it doesn't have much of a realistic soundstage or anything beyond basic panpotted stereo.
- Eric
Well the sound of a truck can disappear in Manhatten traffic. If you want the room ot act as Manhatten traffic sounds, fine.
Remember that if the intent is to reproduce the venue acoustics, and it's done successfully, then the speakers will seem to disappear. So lots of things just work hand in hand. It's just a matter of how you do it.
The speaker will always stop slower than sound coming into it. Basic physics.
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Is that a stock Car stereo or something else? My BMW stereo was incredible but my Honda Odyssey isnt so good (Yep, I traded up
). I love my ribbon 2-ways in my office, that are only about 5 feet from me. I have yet to find a car system with that sound. Of course Im not going to modify my cars at this point. I now drive a min-van, that comes with a dog and 2 little girls. Who wants to customize that for DORA playing 24/7!!!! 
Hi,
Why not? The drivers are not that expensive, Gainclone Amp's (hardwired if needed) are cheap.
Yes, I normally call all of those involved who'se names I recognised the "ABX Mafia". Even Nousaine is involved. I'd not trust any of their statistics.
Not surprised.
Both are so close in most relevant areas that it would be hard to tell them apart by looking at them:
1) Both use Dome Tweeters (no, not all dome tweeters sound the same, just equally bad)
2) Both Designs use crossovers and equalisation full of cheap op-amp's and very basic solid state amp's after that
3) Both use a format of 8" Bass/Mid (only Mid in the Orion) plus 1" Dome tweeter with active 4th order LR crossovers.
So I am unsurprised that the Orions and Behringers sounded more alike than different. And given that the Behringers will be closer to the "learned experience of recorded sound" (being more conventional) I am unsurprised they where preferred, even if they where not actually "better". I suspect that to most listeners the higher low order THD from the Behringers added to percieved "good sound".
Even more, I am unsurpised the "Upgradede B*se" speakers scored even more highly for the simple reason that they where dramatically different to the other two and in general in ways that promote simplicity.
What I would take instead away from the test is that there are audible differences between speakers and that less "convoluted" systems appear subjectively preferable. Oh and of course the vagaries of ABX Testing, especially if the usual suspects are involved.
Pay no attention to man behind the curtain?
If the tests did not come from a group already so thoroughly discredited by all the procedural and statistical gaffe's in their prior tests, I might even pause before heading to lunch, as is, I'll omit that.
Do it. I build B*se copies ages ago. It taught me a lot.
Ciao T
Having lived and refining my DIY dipoles I'm very happy how they render recording. Obviously the Orions are my dream speakers which I would never afford with such mortgage.
Why not? The drivers are not that expensive, Gainclone Amp's (hardwired if needed) are cheap.
Yes, I normally call all of those involved who'se names I recognised the "ABX Mafia". Even Nousaine is involved. I'd not trust any of their statistics.
Not surprised.
Both are so close in most relevant areas that it would be hard to tell them apart by looking at them:
1) Both use Dome Tweeters (no, not all dome tweeters sound the same, just equally bad)
2) Both Designs use crossovers and equalisation full of cheap op-amp's and very basic solid state amp's after that
3) Both use a format of 8" Bass/Mid (only Mid in the Orion) plus 1" Dome tweeter with active 4th order LR crossovers.
So I am unsurprised that the Orions and Behringers sounded more alike than different. And given that the Behringers will be closer to the "learned experience of recorded sound" (being more conventional) I am unsurprised they where preferred, even if they where not actually "better". I suspect that to most listeners the higher low order THD from the Behringers added to percieved "good sound".
Even more, I am unsurpised the "Upgradede B*se" speakers scored even more highly for the simple reason that they where dramatically different to the other two and in general in ways that promote simplicity.
What I would take instead away from the test is that there are audible differences between speakers and that less "convoluted" systems appear subjectively preferable. Oh and of course the vagaries of ABX Testing, especially if the usual suspects are involved.
Pay no attention to man behind the curtain?
If the tests did not come from a group already so thoroughly discredited by all the procedural and statistical gaffe's in their prior tests, I might even pause before heading to lunch, as is, I'll omit that.
Do it. I build B*se copies ages ago. It taught me a lot.
Ciao T
>>> 1) Both use Dome Tweeters (no, not all dome tweeters sound the same, just equally bad)
>>> 2) Both Designs use crossovers and equalisation full of cheap op-amp's and very basic solid state amp's after that
>>> 3) Both use a format of 8" Bass/Mid (only Mid in the Orion) plus 1" Dome tweeter with active 4th order LR crossovers.
>>> So I am unsurprised that the Orions and Behringers sounded more alike than different.
>>> Even more, I am unsurpised the "Upgradede B*se" speakers scored even more highly for the simple reason that they where dramatically different to the other two
ThorstenL, I believe all of your observations have merit. Yes, the Orion and Bering use dome/cone. Interesting comment how the DIY speaker was different. Thank you for expressing them.
>>> 2) Both Designs use crossovers and equalisation full of cheap op-amp's and very basic solid state amp's after that
>>> 3) Both use a format of 8" Bass/Mid (only Mid in the Orion) plus 1" Dome tweeter with active 4th order LR crossovers.
>>> So I am unsurprised that the Orions and Behringers sounded more alike than different.
>>> Even more, I am unsurpised the "Upgradede B*se" speakers scored even more highly for the simple reason that they where dramatically different to the other two
ThorstenL, I believe all of your observations have merit. Yes, the Orion and Bering use dome/cone. Interesting comment how the DIY speaker was different. Thank you for expressing them.
Hi,
"IMP" uses domes too??
If I can see anything from this picture there are more dome tweeters in one IMP than one hand fingers can count! One for each front side and two for each back side, totally 6 dome tweeters?? In stereo pair 12 dome tweeters??
- Elias
imp360-2.jpg photo - Gary Eickmeier photos at pbase.com
"IMP" uses domes too??
If I can see anything from this picture there are more dome tweeters in one IMP than one hand fingers can count! One for each front side and two for each back side, totally 6 dome tweeters?? In stereo pair 12 dome tweeters??
- Elias
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
imp360-2.jpg photo - Gary Eickmeier photos at pbase.com
Agree. The need of approval reveals an uncertainty of what matters. Me? I want to sing along with Bowies "All the young dudes"... Loud and clear.
Eric, I'd be willing to do that for sure. I've often wondered what the Orion fuss was about and would sure like to get a chance to hear them. If they statistically tied the Behringers, they must be ok. Didn't get to do burning amp this year. I've even got a pair of those Mackie 624 mk2 if you'd like me to bring them. They are different animals, but both require subs. Do you have subs outside of the Orion? FWIW, I'm a convert to the box from dipoles! How many of those are there. I might the only fringe element crazed radical hippie who still likes mono--not dual.
Anyway, just PM me.
Dan
Didn't get to do burning amp this year. I've even got a pair of those Mackie 624 mk2 if you'd like me to bring them. They are different animals, but both require subs. Do you have subs outside of the Orion? FWIW, I'm a convert to the box from dipoles! How many of those are there. I might the only fringe element crazed radical hippie who still likes mono--not dual.Anyway, just PM me.
Dan
Okay ill settle for mildly disconcerting
I agree that these sorts of tests are kinda pointless being subjective as they are. Blind tests are better for proving / disproving differences between amps, cables, voodoo driver mods etc.
Don't tell that to the cable and cap guys!
Shhhhh,
Dan
Hi Eric,
I am very interested in listening to your Orions. I am in San Jose (Almaden Valley). Please PM me at ykurtchang at yahoo dot com so I can contact you. Thanks.
Kurt
Don't understand what you're trying to say about the truck.
OK, so it's not the CSD that determines the imaging?
Yes, obviously there is a delay for the mechanical system to stop after the signal is removed, but my point is that there is no natural sound that requires the speaker to stop immediately. Trace a recorded waveform and the ends of sounds taper to 0 rather than stopping at a brick wall (which would require the speaker to do the same).
That was exactly my point.
I don't have a problem that someone may have an opinion or even a reasonable argument as to why something is right or wrong. What I object to is when that "quoted someone" is not a participant discussion and it isn't possible to question his position. It's sort of like hear say evidence or testimony from an expert witness who fails to appear.
The biggest surprise to me is seeing the listening room. Look at those big windows at the rear .... lot's of hard reflections coming from there for sure.
I think the room itself is the most important component in the chain, right after the speaker!
One speaker will sound quite different from one acoustically untreated room to another. Both tonal balance and imaging has a lot to do with the room.
Anyway that's my view
I think the room itself is the most important component in the chain, right after the speaker!
One speaker will sound quite different from one acoustically untreated room to another. Both tonal balance and imaging has a lot to do with the room.
Anyway that's my view