Linkwitz Orions beaten by Behringer.... what!!?

Having lived and refining my DIY dipoles I'm very happy how they render recording. Obviously the Orions are my dream speakers which I would never afford with such mortgage :vampire:. The dipoles are very untiring and natural to hear albeit their obvious limitations in Bass and transition to dome tweeters (are addressed in JohnK's Nao Note).

Then I read Orion owners hearing the constant directivity loudspeakers (gedlee) and buying them in droves (exaggeration ..). Ok ... so perhaps great dynamics are good. OK so I will investigate myself that by building a CD loudpeakers (Econo-waveguide), 98db and all this weekend. I'll report what's all the fuss is about in different thread.

Now, in 2009 SL announced challange to audio community to investigate optimum polar response for realistic reproduction. So this is old news.

linkwitzlab.com/publications.htm
"The challenge to find the optimum radiation pattern and placement of stereo loudspeakers in a room for the creation of phantom sources and simultaneous masking of real sources"

What I did not know was that a group of well-recognised audiophiles had taken the challenge:

home.provide.net/~djcarlst/smwtms.htm



This was quite seriously organised. ABX, Blind, FR matched etc. A large number of samples too. Dave Clark is an audio engineer and he is well known so I think this response to the challenge is credible. They use 3 speakers for the challenge:
- Linkwitz Orion
- Behringer B2031A
- A strange diy loudspekers, the "IMP" by Gary Eickmeier

Have a read yourself to the result:

home.provide.net/~djcarlst/SLReport10.05.pdf

mirror: http://www.scribd.com/doc/103681479/SLReport10-05

- The Orion was beaten by the dinky Behringer slightly
- The Behringer was beaten by the "IMP"

They were so surprised as well:

1.How did Eickmeier’s cheesy boxes of multiple cheap in-walls come out on top?
2.Why didn’t the Orions in optimum location blow away the references and everything else?
3.Why didn’t placing the Orions near walls hurt their sound more?
4.Why were all the averages clustered around 0.0 (equal to the reference)?


What are the implications for all these for our hobby especially dipole lovers?? I'm surely very excited to complete my CD horns and hear myself. But to build an IMP???

I haven't read any response from SL in regards to this investigation but it surely was interesting enough that he did the investigation himself:
linkwitzlab.com/frontiers_6.htm#Z%20-

He thinks now that the CD box loudspeaker can be a more accurate reproduction tool?

To put things in perspective, the Orions are $9000 loudspeakers and the Behringers are $360.
 
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One would laugh at the descrioption of Eickmer speakers

“Improvement” to Bose 901s—according to Gary
–Four Radio Shack in-wall speakers, one on each face of cabinet
–Pair firing back towards front wall, full level
–Inward facing, 6 dB attenuated
–Outward facing, 12 dB attenuated

But this had beaten both Orion (Dipole) and Behringer (CD) in a blind, controlled listening test. so....? They would even be cheaper than both!

The Behringer's constant directivity measured well apparently, even surprising Dr. Geddes

www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/103872-geddes-waveguides-438.html

Another update - I have added the Orion and a two way Behringer to the list of systems. Check out the Behringer! I am impressed - and that's hard to do!
__________________
Earl Geddes Gedlee Website

At $360 even Econowave DIY is hard to compete when considering the amps and cabinets.

My faith is shaken!
 
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soongsc

Member
2005-03-26 2:31 pm
Taiwan
There must be something wrong. I could not stand listening to the Behringer B2031A
for more than 5 minutes. The sound was quite harsh, probably due to the class D amp in it. I think it would have been a more credible comparison if the Behringer B2031A
had a better amp.

Why would Earl want to get involved with this?
 
There must be something wrong. I could not stand listening to the Behringer B2031A
for more than 5 minutes. The sound was quite harsh, probably due to the class D amp in it. I think it would have been a more credible comparison if the Behringer B2031A
had a better amp.

Why would Earl want to get involved with this?

Behringer still make the B2031P, a passive version. Perhaps a fairer comparison? :confused:
 

soongsc

Member
2005-03-26 2:31 pm
Taiwan
I feel your pain Gain. Been there. Imagine if they had made the cheap mods to the Behringer to reduce its diffraction.

Soongsc, when you were listening, you could read the word "Behringer". It's seems harsh just writing it.

Dan
Well, after your findings on the B2031P, I went to a store that carries Behringer equipment and asked for that model, but they only had the B2031A, so that was what I listened to. The store owner made it clear that it's something to go for when budget limited. I think a chip amp would have been a better implementation for such small power.

FWIW, at Hi End shows, in most rooms I stay about one minute.
 
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Thanks for posting this - I had heard it was going to happen, but didn't hear anything about it after that. They tried to get a Gedlee speaker in there, but Earl wasn't into it, I think.

I'm very surprised by the results. I wonder what to take from them??

Hmmm interesting .. Earl opted out ?

There must be something wrong. I could not stand listening to the Behringer B2031A
for more than 5 minutes. The sound was quite harsh, probably due to the class D amp in it. I think it would have been a more credible comparison if the Behringer B2031A
had a better amp.

Why would Earl want to get involved with this?

Good question , was the comparison test flawed ?
 
There must be something wrong. I could not stand listening to the Behringer B2031A
for more than 5 minutes. The sound was quite harsh, probably due to the class D amp in it. I think it would have been a more credible comparison if the Behringer B2031A
had a better amp.

According to the pics on this thread the amps are the trusty LM3886s, paralleled for the bass/mid. There's a grounding problem, with pin1 going onto the pcb, rather than the recommended chassis connection. So that could be why you heard a gritty sound. Seems Seigfried also noticed some harshness on selected tracks in his own listening.

Since its got such good press I'm going to try tracking a pair down and hot-rodding the electronics.:D
 
I know you are picky Soongsc. Just pointing out so people can keep things in perspective. I actually think the B2031P is a bit harsh(I've written about it several times and have a lot of experience with it), less so cheaply modded. On a budget, awful hard to beat. Just ask SL--oops:eek:, different budget category. ;) It's just a good speaker that needs a little tweaking to sound/measure its best. The real interesting point here is that this other speaker actually won the competition. Makes you think there's more to explore--or perhaps not.:cool:

Dan
 
FWIW on that Behringer 2031, I'd mod the cabinet as well--rather first.
Look at this response:
1apolar.jpg

Then with the ports stuffed with cotton:
cottonpolar.jpg

Many other cheap and practical mods available, but that one is an obvious and easily noticeable improvement anyone can quickly do w/o even a screwdriver or duct tape.

Dan