For those interested in the Lii F15 - and questioned about the manufacturers use of smoothing - let's see. I ran some white and pink noise tests in my non-anechoic living room listening area. FYI - here they are.
I used an Ivie noise generator and Apex 220 mic, Tascam US-122L ADC. Two sets of 3 screen shots, first is electrical input to the driver, followed by "1/6 smoothing" / 6th octave wide bands and the no smoothing / 48th octave bands. All uncalibrated to actual SPL reference - just to see the relative frequency levels in this drivers response; the woofer was not enabled.
Aaand, it seems I ruined all the pictures by resizing them for DIYAudio's storage sake, now you cant read the graph axis values and I, of course, lost all the originals. Repeat another day...
I used an Ivie noise generator and Apex 220 mic, Tascam US-122L ADC. Two sets of 3 screen shots, first is electrical input to the driver, followed by "1/6 smoothing" / 6th octave wide bands and the no smoothing / 48th octave bands. All uncalibrated to actual SPL reference - just to see the relative frequency levels in this drivers response; the woofer was not enabled.
Aaand, it seems I ruined all the pictures by resizing them for DIYAudio's storage sake, now you cant read the graph axis values and I, of course, lost all the originals. Repeat another day...
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thats limited? that baffle size already looks huge and impractical to me.
i had this idea to use plexiglass as the baffle. but 3/4 and 1 inch plexiglass is super expensive so i will have to go with 1/2 inch thick. the size im considering is 24 by 16 for the F15 and another 24 by 16 for the subwoofer which i would like to crossover somewhere aROUND 120HZ. thoughts? the sub would be eminence alpha
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the only problem that i have with this is the mention of 1khz. i wouldnt and i dont think anyone else calls 1khz region: bass. if this 15 inch driver is going to need to be augmented under from under 1khz, then why call it full range and why even bother?100hz or 200hz is one thing but 1khz? so basically we are dealing with a 15 inch tweeter which extends into midrange a little. im being kind of snarky but this is not what steve deckart is hyping. he is touting just about ideal performance form this driver in a baffle that is so small, it is basical;ly just a stand. so which one is it?
@Dadbeh - careful, I think the one Mr Deckart is hyping is his big version, not the small barrel. See photo -
Uh, I dont have a protractor big enough to mark off all the angles for a polar measurement. The ones posted are at a little bit of an angle - mainly because my mic stand is collapsed as far down as it'll go. I had the boom for it at one time, but lost it...
Let's see if I can get something a little more readable up tomorrow. I think the downward slope from 2K through 200 Hz is easily compensated by EQ, which I assume all modern systems have and use.
What I cant convey in words or pictures is how they guy playing his trumpet sounds right now. I could say "Steve Deckert said these reproduce the sound of a concert grand better than any of his other speakers" and I have to agree that for piano they sound great to me. But that doesnt really do it for anyone else either.
Uh, I dont have a protractor big enough to mark off all the angles for a polar measurement. The ones posted are at a little bit of an angle - mainly because my mic stand is collapsed as far down as it'll go. I had the boom for it at one time, but lost it...
Let's see if I can get something a little more readable up tomorrow. I think the downward slope from 2K through 200 Hz is easily compensated by EQ, which I assume all modern systems have and use.
What I cant convey in words or pictures is how they guy playing his trumpet sounds right now. I could say "Steve Deckert said these reproduce the sound of a concert grand better than any of his other speakers" and I have to agree that for piano they sound great to me. But that doesnt really do it for anyone else either.
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There are very few full range drivers if any. It's more a guide like we know what a woofer does and a midrange and tweeter but one that does most of what those three do is labeled full range. Let's not take the manufacturer to court over it
I agree, the response seems a bit uneven.
But all FR units need some help in one form or another, either in the bass region, the higher frequencies, or by using modern magic.
At least with a 15" widebander you can get by using just a single driver, if you have DSP.
With most other "Fullrangers" you need either:
a)A woofer.
b)A tweeter.
No. 'You' don't automatically 'need'. That is predicated on the assumption that everybody works to one specific criteria, or conforms to a given opinion, which is not the case.
Plenty of people for example are perfectly happy with an unsupported 3in wideband unit. Plenty of others are perfectly happy with some larger drivers with limited HF capacity. This is a matter of individual preference and requirements, and the vast majority of people who use wideband drivers do so with them unsupported with additional units. You only have to take a gander at the relative number of threads on this Full Range part of the forum focused on single-driver speakers, and those focused on variations of the multiway theme (wideband drivers supported with woofers or tweeters). The former vastly outnumber the latter. Both approaches have merits; speaking as somebody who designs speakers of all types, I appreciate good examples of each for what they do well, while noting their limitations. Quality design is about identifiying what you require in a given set of circumstances and working within that context.
Plenty of people for example are perfectly happy with an unsupported 3in wideband unit. Plenty of others are perfectly happy with some larger drivers with limited HF capacity. This is a matter of individual preference and requirements, and the vast majority of people who use wideband drivers do so with them unsupported with additional units. You only have to take a gander at the relative number of threads on this Full Range part of the forum focused on single-driver speakers, and those focused on variations of the multiway theme (wideband drivers supported with woofers or tweeters). The former vastly outnumber the latter. Both approaches have merits; speaking as somebody who designs speakers of all types, I appreciate good examples of each for what they do well, while noting their limitations. Quality design is about identifiying what you require in a given set of circumstances and working within that context.
Those are not my words.
I did say: "all FR units need some help in one form or another"
Point me to a single FR unit that need no modification, no special box design (IE simple build!), no bsc, no other eq or adjustment of any kind, no other drivers involved, nothing but an amplifier, a source, with the necessary cables to link them all. That you would sit down and listen to without complaint.
I did say "most other fullrangers", not "all".
"Plenty of people for example are perfectly happy with an unsupported 3in wideband unit"?
So that's no DSP, no extra woofer, in a compact simple-to-build box?
Ofcourse it's a matter of preference, just as you say. And my statement above is most certainly a very simplified generalization. But if we allow ourselves to add "complicated large box" as an alternative to option a), then I still think most things are covered.
My mistake: did not list DSP, BSC or any other means of EQ/adjustment as an option c).
I do think my MA 10.2 work pretty good down to 60hz, but I do prefer them with a sub. My opinion is that most music benefit greatly from at the very least flat to 40hz response, especially classical music, but if you have a different opinion then that's fine.
I do not pretend to have the same level of experience as you do Scott, but what my very limited experience tells me, is that: "all FR units need some help in one form or another"
I will stand by that statement, if you choose to disregard horn loading as "some help in one form or another" then we disagree.
Well I can but as scottmoose said it would be my preference and not everyone else's. I have Lii audio crystal 10 in tqwt with Bakoon 11R amplification and on an extended listen this afternoon it's perfect to my ears. After getting the Bakoon I noticed the bass was overpowering so lowering the box to close the bottom opening its now right for me.
They are your words -you wrote them, unless there is a ghost somewhere.
Humour aside, my point is simply that what you wrote, while I'm sure is absolutely true in terms of your personal preferences, impressions, design goals &c. does not automatically have universal applicability. Thousands of people the world over run a massive variety of single-driver speakers without any of the matters that you state, without any kind of caveat, they 'need'. Self-evidently then, for many people, they do not 'need' any such thing. Nobody disputes some (perhaps all) do for you.Yes indeed. Quite a number of people who build, say, the TABAQ and run it in a small space close to room boundaries do not run any kind of corrective EQ; you only have to look at the thread and the various comments to the effect dotted over the forum. As well they might, given that the physics is clear enough. If their requirements are, for example, low level listening without a large dynamic range in a small space, QED. Plenty of other examples also. Would they suit all? No, obviously not, but they suit the people who build them and run them it that way.
It is not my opinion. My opinion is that one designs a loudspeaker according to a given set of target objectives, or, ideally within that, the requirements of a given situation. Believe it or not, there is quite a lot of variation in this.
Here is a question: if you were designing a loudspeaker for other people, would you see it as your job to impose your opinions and values on them, or would you try to achive what they want? Obviously, being an intelligent person, you would do the latter, with the caveat that if they were asking for something impracticable, you would provide what guidance and advice you could. Naturally there is room for a degree of opinion in this, but it only goes so far in such cases. I certainly do not disregard it, for the excellent reason that from an operational / physics perspective precisely the same statement can be applied to any kind of LF enclosure at all. Since you noted enclosures [viz. 'boxes'] earlier yourself, you appeared to previously exclude them from what you categorise as 'help'. If you're now saying they should be, then from the POV of physics I'm absolutely with you: technically speaking this is correct, but for practical purposes we don't usually generalise to quite that extent, since it would otherwise imply unbaffled units operating in free air.
As noted, the fundamental point here is simply that different people have different requirements, and generalisations stating 'xyz is "required" by all things and all people' is simply not the case. Would that life were so simple! Although it would also be a mite less interesting.
Example: those 12in Fanes that are currently quite popular. I know at least a dozen people here in the UK who are happy with them run unfiltered in a straightforward sealed box. Me, I couldn't live with them like that -I'd be peeling my lips from the back of my head. A shelving filter would definitely be required for muggins here to listen to them for more than a few minutes at a time. But as I say, the other lads love them as-is. We're all of us different.
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You should have added "IMHO" of course that is only my opinion, but........
Single driver full range is perfectly possible without any helping woofers. The Mark Audio drivers in the cabinets designed for them are a case in point.
On open baffle it is much more of a challenge.
I have a pair of F15s on order and with the help of Martin Kings worksheets will see what I can achieve on an open baffle. Maybe it will be stunning...
On open baffle it is much more of a challenge.
I have a pair of F15s on order and with the help of Martin Kings worksheets will see what I can achieve on an open baffle. Maybe it will be stunning...
i finally moved on with acrylic and aluminum construction. will be using 16 by 24 acrylic panels half inch tick for the F15s and also for the eminance woofers. i really wanted to go with 3/4 inch thick but it was too expensive. specially since there is 4 panel needed and also in case i need to i might aDD ANOTHER PAIR OF PANELS FOR ANOTHER PAIR OF Woofers. hopefully this is enough as i am already around 1200 bucks into this and havent even started putting it together.
Yes, I have Jordan Eikonas in VTL cabinet with a removable back panel so I could experiment with OB, then they needed LF support of course. With the cabinet intact they are quite good but do lack easy bass and at higher volume levels single wideband drivers suffer more IMD which woofers crossed low mitigate to a large degree.