I am going to chime in ... I have the F15's in a baffle within 2" of the Decware and I still find the bass lacking. The sound is incredible and probably the best FR I have ever heard. When listening to "natural" bass ala acoustic bass, bass drum, electric bass, the sound is there and with plenty of authority. Once a track is played with "synthetic" bass, there is a definite lack of presence. I have a set of W15's ordered and am looking at a dipole baffle design right now. Since I don't need the F15's to dig as deep, I plan to reduce the width and place the W15's underneath. I plan to experiment with them in the forward facing baffle position as well as 90 degrees behind the baffle facing the side walls in a bi-amp configuration.
So yes, I have yet to hear a speaker "do it all" but yet the F15's do enough well enough that I have now abandoned my highly-modified K-horns in pursuit of these instead. There is something to be said for a fullrange driver with respect to imaging and detail that a multi-way with a crossover cannot compete with. The F15's being a larger speaker cover a wider frequency range but there is still room for improvement.
FWIW, I have had Fostex, and several MA's in my past, The best until the F15 was the 12P in the Pencil cabinet. So the search continues!
As far as the person who wants to point out all the faults ... that is typical diyAudio forum. People post opinions and facts about capacitor sound, tube sound, speaker sound, etc. To me there is a HUGE difference between what is correct on a piece of paper and what give s me goosebumps when I hear it. I used to be a sound guy running the board for live concerts so I know what a cymbal sounds like with the attack of stick and vibrato delay. To me, the more "real" the system sounds, that is what I judge as "better". And yes ... I can "hear" the difference between Cap "A" and Cap "B" and Tube "A" and Tube "B" and no, it is not subtle.
The F15's are pretty magical and I intent to research them further. Stay tuned!
If you are curious, here is my initial design concept: Craigtone Audio - Lii15 OB Dipole | Facebook
So yes, I have yet to hear a speaker "do it all" but yet the F15's do enough well enough that I have now abandoned my highly-modified K-horns in pursuit of these instead. There is something to be said for a fullrange driver with respect to imaging and detail that a multi-way with a crossover cannot compete with. The F15's being a larger speaker cover a wider frequency range but there is still room for improvement.
FWIW, I have had Fostex, and several MA's in my past, The best until the F15 was the 12P in the Pencil cabinet. So the search continues!
As far as the person who wants to point out all the faults ... that is typical diyAudio forum. People post opinions and facts about capacitor sound, tube sound, speaker sound, etc. To me there is a HUGE difference between what is correct on a piece of paper and what give s me goosebumps when I hear it. I used to be a sound guy running the board for live concerts so I know what a cymbal sounds like with the attack of stick and vibrato delay. To me, the more "real" the system sounds, that is what I judge as "better". And yes ... I can "hear" the difference between Cap "A" and Cap "B" and Tube "A" and Tube "B" and no, it is not subtle.
The F15's are pretty magical and I intent to research them further. Stay tuned!
If you are curious, here is my initial design concept: Craigtone Audio - Lii15 OB Dipole | Facebook
@nicoch58 - I wouldnt write these F15s off just yet. Although I'm a seasoned EE, that doesnt get me a free pass into the master speaker builder camp. These measures are continuous signal, non-anechoic and I dare say put any other speaker into someone's normal untreated living room, measure it in the same way - and you're going to get such ups and downs in the FR.
As a sanity check I tested a couple different small commercial speakers; a Boston CR55 and a Klipsch SB1. Both exhibited a similar ratty looking response seen from the Lii, with "near 20 db up/down" also - so it's the measurement that's at fault, not the speaker. Particularly when all three exhibit the same 10 db dip at the same just < 200 Hz mark. Unsure what dimension or piece of furniture placement is the cause, but suffice to say what I'm showing are in ordinary consumer use, not laboratory conditions.
I've been experimenting with grafting the woofer response onto the F15 to extend it - an octave below the 60Hz I'm getting from the lone driver would be nice. The 3rd plot is the F15 with the 18" moving some air along with it. With a little BruteFIR EQ, even flatter. I'm still in playing with it mode and I'll probably do miniDSP between my DAC and the two amps. Even if I replace that with an all-analog filter implementation after I get things dialed in.
As a sanity check I tested a couple different small commercial speakers; a Boston CR55 and a Klipsch SB1. Both exhibited a similar ratty looking response seen from the Lii, with "near 20 db up/down" also - so it's the measurement that's at fault, not the speaker. Particularly when all three exhibit the same 10 db dip at the same just < 200 Hz mark. Unsure what dimension or piece of furniture placement is the cause, but suffice to say what I'm showing are in ordinary consumer use, not laboratory conditions.
I've been experimenting with grafting the woofer response onto the F15 to extend it - an octave below the 60Hz I'm getting from the lone driver would be nice. The 3rd plot is the F15 with the 18" moving some air along with it. With a little BruteFIR EQ, even flatter. I'm still in playing with it mode and I'll probably do miniDSP between my DAC and the two amps. Even if I replace that with an all-analog filter implementation after I get things dialed in.
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HI JJ , I play fr in Ob from 2008 to me a single 8" can have all ,bestsy ,seas and so... still are mechanical two way ,the whizzer is tw . A 15" beam at 1k no free lunch here some are benign but 5db is the max for me ,my next will have a H or Nelson baffle with15woofer and no whizzer FR plus Nelson active jfet xo for a nice triode
PS you can xo just modding the caps in the driver stage of tube amp and have made a opt with >200hz great for a single ended
PS you can xo just modding the caps in the driver stage of tube amp and have made a opt with >200hz
great for a single ended
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It would be interesting to hear a comparison to the Fane 15-300tc driver. Haven't heard the Lii or the Fane myself, but I'm leaning towards the Fane as it seems like it would work well how I'd want to use it, and price of admission is a bit easier on the wallet etc.. Be neat to hear both though for sure.
If we're suddenly talking about everyone in the world and are not limiting our statements to members on this forum, certainly. Point proven.
I am flattered you presume there is some kind of intelligence on my part, but I can assure you it's non-intentional.
I did say that my previous statement was: "my statement above is most certainly a very simplified generalization."
Not intended as any sort of rule at all.
But I do enjoy the opportunity to discuss a topic such as this, and especially so, considering that you in particular, decided to take the time to formulate such a response.
Allright, for the sake of argument, perhaps we can agree on:
A simple box, would be any box that can be easily calculated in your head, without any other help than a basic calculator to figure internal volume and required dimensions for the ply, pen and a single sheet of paper to scribble out basic build plans and cutlist.
So I guess this would mostly result in closed boxes and dipole/OB speakers of various kinds.
As noted, the fundamental point here is simply that different people have different requirements, and generalisations stating 'xyz is "required" by all things and all people' is simply not the case. Would that life were so simple! Although it would also be a mite less interesting.
Different people do indeed have different requirements.
I will just say this, my very simple and general statement:
Although there seems to be some disagreement on this, and especially so if we consider the entire worlds population, I will stand by that statement.
There is one build I did some years ago, a single fold "voigt" style rear loaded horn for the W5-1611. But even if the basic design is quite easy to build, I did spend quite a bit of time calculating how to get it "just right".
And saying that, the design is flawed, but this was ofcourse expected.
I do like that build, accepting it's flaws, and it does bring a smile to my face when I listen to it.
Would I choose it if I could have only 1 system for the rest of my life?
No.
Is it fun and engaging to listen to?
Yes.
And I do think we should try, to the best of our ability, to disregard what I like to think of as: The new owners Gospel.
I've probably done this many times myself, despite being conscious of it.
Purchasing a new product, being blinded by all the "wonderful awesomeness" (usually in my head) as well as looking for ways to defend my new toy.
Fast forward a few weeks or months, and I suddenly start trying to figure out what's wrong with it and how it can be improved.
That said, if nobody takes the plunge on those new "toys", then perhaps we stop progressing. That would be boring.
Hi nicoch58, "PS you can xo just modding the caps in the driver stage of tube amp and have made a opt with >200hz"
I was considering this. The JD1301 LM1875 chip amp has two opportunities for xo; one via the coupling capacitor from the tube and one via the LM1875 feedback capacitor to ground. I assume setting the two just right would give me a 6 db / oct high pass...
I was thinking of setting this around the same frequency as the Lii rolls off at (60) to get an 18 db / oct slope. Then meet up with that with the woofer low pass roll off - at the same 18db slope...
Then again, since the JD amp will only survive so many disassembly cycles to get at the feedback cap, I'm probably way best off using a miniDSP for all of this playing with xo settings -
I have a pair of Dayton 8" and Fostex 4" full range drivers, which I could substitute in place of the F15, more easily EQing for those via miniDSP. Summer is coming and I do have a back deck that looks out over a fairly open space, which would be a lot more "anechoic" than my living room... Neighbors probably wont even know what pink noise is.
Even if I made the anechoic FR perfect, once brought back into the practical listening space, all acoustic h*** breaks loose again. I understand that's what REW and RePhase are for, but the journey through there must proceed a step at a time. I assume it's best to have something halfway decent to start with, FR wise.
I was considering this. The JD1301 LM1875 chip amp has two opportunities for xo; one via the coupling capacitor from the tube and one via the LM1875 feedback capacitor to ground. I assume setting the two just right would give me a 6 db / oct high pass...
I was thinking of setting this around the same frequency as the Lii rolls off at (60) to get an 18 db / oct slope. Then meet up with that with the woofer low pass roll off - at the same 18db slope...
Then again, since the JD amp will only survive so many disassembly cycles to get at the feedback cap, I'm probably way best off using a miniDSP for all of this playing with xo settings -
I have a pair of Dayton 8" and Fostex 4" full range drivers, which I could substitute in place of the F15, more easily EQing for those via miniDSP. Summer is coming and I do have a back deck that looks out over a fairly open space, which would be a lot more "anechoic" than my living room... Neighbors probably wont even know what pink noise is.
Even if I made the anechoic FR perfect, once brought back into the practical listening space, all acoustic h*** breaks loose again. I understand that's what REW and RePhase are for, but the journey through there must proceed a step at a time. I assume it's best to have something halfway decent to start with, FR wise.
@Kaffimann - almost sounds like you're talking about a relationship partner there, with the rest of my life thing.
"Purchasing a new product, being blinded by all the "wonderful awesomeness" (usually in my head) as well as looking for ways to defend my new toy"
Well, we'd all like "ratification" of our decisions from anothers perspective. Of course I'd like to hear - from, say, 25 other DIYers - that my decision to buy the Lii's was a good one - and they all want one too. That I'm rapidly approaching 1k$ to get these working in a nice way on OBs, causes a little self-doubt; would that same expense been better spent on...a nice 3-way closed box design?
I'm no MJK or Scottmoose or Dave, all of whom have wrangled many designs into something actually pretty nice. More like my very 1st shot at it - besides the couple/few cabs I put together 45-50 years ago as a kid, when all I did was connect the recommended NP cap to the tweeter and - done! With this, pretty much the only design goal was a speaker with no xover - and I'm seeing how difficult that is to pull off. More like "OK, no xover in the 800 to 8KHz range" - maybe I can make something that sounds decent covering a full range of audio - and still hold onto that one.
"Purchasing a new product, being blinded by all the "wonderful awesomeness" (usually in my head) as well as looking for ways to defend my new toy"
Well, we'd all like "ratification" of our decisions from anothers perspective. Of course I'd like to hear - from, say, 25 other DIYers - that my decision to buy the Lii's was a good one - and they all want one too. That I'm rapidly approaching 1k$ to get these working in a nice way on OBs, causes a little self-doubt; would that same expense been better spent on...a nice 3-way closed box design?
I'm no MJK or Scottmoose or Dave, all of whom have wrangled many designs into something actually pretty nice. More like my very 1st shot at it - besides the couple/few cabs I put together 45-50 years ago as a kid, when all I did was connect the recommended NP cap to the tweeter and - done! With this, pretty much the only design goal was a speaker with no xover - and I'm seeing how difficult that is to pull off. More like "OK, no xover in the 800 to 8KHz range" - maybe I can make something that sounds decent covering a full range of audio - and still hold onto that one.
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A full range OB could be a holy grail for some, it depends on your priorities, eg are you after dipole radiation?
Joe, it's the same thing every time. There's always some compromise to make.
There is no perfect system, unless you decide to embrace the flaws.
In which case it is a matter of deciding which flaws you can accept.
I have some preferences, the most important for me are : low frequency response to around 25hz, reasonable flat up to at least 13khz, low distortion, capable of some spl on the rare occasions when I want to shake the house a bit.
Not possible for me to be happy with a single driver setup for a longer period of time.
My next systems will probably be:
1) a three way with a 10" coax + a 18", need to get rid of my current main setup first. Need to order some 18" drivers.
2) a two way with those 2" SB widebanders and a couple of those long throw TB 6" subs. Not decided on the design details, but have the parts.
There is no perfect system, unless you decide to embrace the flaws.
In which case it is a matter of deciding which flaws you can accept.
I have some preferences, the most important for me are : low frequency response to around 25hz, reasonable flat up to at least 13khz, low distortion, capable of some spl on the rare occasions when I want to shake the house a bit.
Not possible for me to be happy with a single driver setup for a longer period of time.
My next systems will probably be:
1) a three way with a 10" coax + a 18", need to get rid of my current main setup first. Need to order some 18" drivers.
2) a two way with those 2" SB widebanders and a couple of those long throw TB 6" subs. Not decided on the design details, but have the parts.
Most of the compromises arise from financial constraints. The requirements for a "perfect" system are actually quite straight forward.
Today, I decided to clean up the pile 'o parts comprising the speaker level crossover for the 18" assist, by replacing it with a line level circuit.
The 'ol junkbox coughed up a pair of relays with 9V coils. I measured these with a GR impedance bridge (I've hung onto for ~30 years...for just such an occasion) at 88 mH. Using LTSpice, I simulated the circuit (pic below), being sure to include the parasitic resistance of the inductor. Again getting lucky with parts I happen to have lying around for proof of concept.
Using the headphone output of the DAC to drive it, I observed the voltage FR at the speaker terminals (2nd pic). We'll see if I can shelve this into a good spot in the overall measured FR tomorrow - knowing me, I probably have the bass up way high at the moment -
The 'ol junkbox coughed up a pair of relays with 9V coils. I measured these with a GR impedance bridge (I've hung onto for ~30 years...for just such an occasion) at 88 mH. Using LTSpice, I simulated the circuit (pic below), being sure to include the parasitic resistance of the inductor. Again getting lucky with parts I happen to have lying around for proof of concept.
Using the headphone output of the DAC to drive it, I observed the voltage FR at the speaker terminals (2nd pic). We'll see if I can shelve this into a good spot in the overall measured FR tomorrow - knowing me, I probably have the bass up way high at the moment -
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They are your words -you wrote them, unless there is a ghost somewhere.
I think a little culture and language barrier is at play here. My language is probably a bit closer to Kaffiman's than yours, as is our culture. Kaffiman does not seem to say there is one set of rules for everyone, but once you start expecting more of a loudspeaker, it should meet different rules/standards. I think you are both saying exactly the same, in very different ways.
My blunt dutchness: If a TABAQ in a corner does it for someone (with the caveats you made yourself in terms of dynamics and max SPL), then that's fine, but if someone also expect their system to play the sound to a screening of the movie U-571 in a barn at cinema levels, more power handling and a wider frequency range are in order.
I actually admire Woden designs very much and agree that there is a time and place for many different configurations, I have enjoyed many of them. I feel my Fane 15" fullrange driver in a pipehorn variation based on the Olson cornerhorn is actually close in spirit to frugel type horns, and not that much bigger. I bet many people who enjoy a TABAQ in a corner, or a FHXL, would also enjoy my loudspeakers. But mine are more appropriate for that U-571 screening (not even close to fully adequate, probably). And mine have more headroom for filtering, be it analogue filtering or DSP.
And just to squeeze in a question I have asked before, and will ask again: will you consider designing a frugelhorn variation for the Fane 15"?
Hmmmm, I will not automatically dismiss potential language or cultural "barriers", but it does seem like we're talking past eachother.
I was under the assumption that we where having a discussion under the implicit context of: Striving to achieve a certain level of performance, on the basis of the discussion up to that point.
I was protesting against the addition of "automatically", since that would blow the entire discussion out of context.
While I agree with these words, that there is no specific solution that is perfect for any and all applications. It's not the intention at all.
It would be a little bit like if I responded this in a different manner:
(Forgive me for applying crude manners and intentionally schewed viewpoint for the sake of argument.)
Try as I might, I cannot exactly see some vast oceanic mass of our current members, praising their 3" drivers in TABAQ enclosures for earth shattering bass and incredibly low distortion during THX certified sound levels, when watching modern action movies.
Neither can I understand why anyone perfectly content with the sound from the built-in speakers in their telly or laptop, to partake in discussions on this forum. That said, most modern built-in speakers do rely heavily on DSP trickery for a smoke-and-mirrors type "awesomeness". But that's perhaps a topic for a different thread.
Let me apologize for derailing the thread, it was not my intention.
I was under the assumption that we where having a discussion under the implicit context of: Striving to achieve a certain level of performance, on the basis of the discussion up to that point.
I was protesting against the addition of "automatically", since that would blow the entire discussion out of context.
While I agree with these words, that there is no specific solution that is perfect for any and all applications. It's not the intention at all.
It would be a little bit like if I responded this in a different manner:
(Forgive me for applying crude manners and intentionally schewed viewpoint for the sake of argument.)
Try as I might, I cannot exactly see some vast oceanic mass of our current members, praising their 3" drivers in TABAQ enclosures for earth shattering bass and incredibly low distortion during THX certified sound levels, when watching modern action movies.
Neither can I understand why anyone perfectly content with the sound from the built-in speakers in their telly or laptop, to partake in discussions on this forum. That said, most modern built-in speakers do rely heavily on DSP trickery for a smoke-and-mirrors type "awesomeness". But that's perhaps a topic for a different thread.
Let me apologize for derailing the thread, it was not my intention.
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Today's FR and the Daphile Brute FIR panel to get it. I added another 110uf for a total of 475uf cap in the line level xover, shifting the low pass response a bit lower.
I had to run the 18s out of phase with the Liis to get it. Maybe I can turn down the 31.5Hz slider if I buy the Goldwoods...
Read elsewhere here that high Qts on OB can be a matter of taste, and other Qts performers can be accommodated with EQ and get - to some - a preferable sound. Sigh...
I had to run the 18s out of phase with the Liis to get it. Maybe I can turn down the 31.5Hz slider if I buy the Goldwoods...
Read elsewhere here that high Qts on OB can be a matter of taste, and other Qts performers can be accommodated with EQ and get - to some - a preferable sound. Sigh...
