Crown I-TECH HD 12000 Power_in=2200W (110Vac, 20A) Power_out= 2 X 6000W@2R http://www.crownaudio.com/pdf/amps/137435.pdf
LabGruppen PLM20000Q Power_in=3680W (230Vac, 16A) Power_out= 4 X 5000W@2.67R http://downloads.labgruppen.com/PLM%20Series%20CDTD%20PLM%2020000Q.pdf
Powersoft K20 Power_in=5750W (230Vac, 25A) Power_out=2 X 9000W@2R http://www.powersoft-audio.com/component/option,com_docman/Itemid,111/gid,78/task,doc_download/
PKN 3PHASE-20K Power_in=11085W (3x 400Vac, 16A) Power_out=2 X 10000W@2.6R PKN 3PHASE power amplifier
Which one looks more?
LabGruppen PLM20000Q Power_in=3680W (230Vac, 16A) Power_out= 4 X 5000W@2.67R http://downloads.labgruppen.com/PLM%20Series%20CDTD%20PLM%2020000Q.pdf
Powersoft K20 Power_in=5750W (230Vac, 25A) Power_out=2 X 9000W@2R http://www.powersoft-audio.com/component/option,com_docman/Itemid,111/gid,78/task,doc_download/
PKN 3PHASE-20K Power_in=11085W (3x 400Vac, 16A) Power_out=2 X 10000W@2.6R PKN 3PHASE power amplifier
Which one looks more?
Ok,maybe the sustained power of this amp is enough for most applications and i see that is better than Powersoft,Labgruppen and Crown,but i still think that a good manufacturer should show a graph with output power decay over time.
AndreSPi wrote : And the bonus information: these amps are "NOT Class-D"
Anybody have more info about that?
AndreSPi wrote : And the bonus information: these amps are "NOT Class-D"
Anybody have more info about that?
The picture showing the back of the amplifier is CAD, not a real image. This suggests that the project is not yet completed and specifications are tentative.
btw: With newer MOS/IGBT, just two layer PCB (no advanced magnetics), and some mixed analog+digital control I'm getting 1x 6k/2r with >30% duty cycle at a fraction of the size and the weight of that PKN amplifier (from 1x 208V/230V/240V), so their power ratings could be right (but again at a limited duty cycle). However, I think I get a better kw per k$ ratio, a very critical parameter too 😉
btw: With newer MOS/IGBT, just two layer PCB (no advanced magnetics), and some mixed analog+digital control I'm getting 1x 6k/2r with >30% duty cycle at a fraction of the size and the weight of that PKN amplifier (from 1x 208V/230V/240V), so their power ratings could be right (but again at a limited duty cycle). However, I think I get a better kw per k$ ratio, a very critical parameter too 😉
How exactly do class D amplifiers handle reactive loads? I know what goes on in a standard class AB type amplifier, but does this carry over into class D?
Most of the properly designed switching amplifiers (just like the Class-D) handle reactive energies very well. Some parts of the energy circulates between the secondary storage of capacitor bank and the moving voice coil of the loudspeaker. The circulating energy depends on the actual speaker, box and even enviromental conditions and also infected by the shape of signal amplified. Some cases over 35% energy circulating which eases the job of power supply unit.
Another thing is the actual power factor of moving coil transducers which is pretty poor and affected by the inductive behaviour of voice coil. It means that the output current is not really in phase with the driver Voltage... here becomes obvious why the conventional resistive load tests are so ineffective.
Another thing is the actual power factor of moving coil transducers which is pretty poor and affected by the inductive behaviour of voice coil. It means that the output current is not really in phase with the driver Voltage... here becomes obvious why the conventional resistive load tests are so ineffective.
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Reactive power flows ping-pong between supply storage capacitors and the reactive load element, but the reactive current component does not produce any more dissipation in the amplifier than the resistive component (mostly i^2*r and switching losses).
To Saturnus:
Preliminary prototypes are usually shown in trade shows. Things take some time to get reasonably debugged and go into full production.
Let's not get into the loudness war debate again - i can just assure you that Flat Beat is pretty tame compared to other modern music, and it's quite a nice tune actually.
The point is that no matter how powerful an amp is, someone, somewhere, IS going to slam the living hell out of it. Otherwise limiters wouldn't be mandatory on all pro amps... So the people designing and building it should account for that, and give some real, continuous power specs which the amp can deliver without blowing up, instead of a meaningless burst number. Because when you hear "40kW" you think - hell, i can run my whole show on just one of those! Which is obviously NOT going to be true.
You're not allowed to demonstrate speakers on the trade floor. I suppose they could have attached dummy loads but they probably weren't allowed to do that either simply because they would have to be able to dissipate up to 40kW which are some gigantic dummy loads, and the room would heat up pretty fast. I also doubt they had access to 3x32A 400V or 1x85A 230V power on the trade floor which makes it all a moot point.
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Maybe you can demonstrate with speakers if you pay few thousands GBP as a penalty 🙂 if you exceed the SPL limit.
Professional amplifier DOES NOT WORK without limiters! Minimum requirement is the peak limiter, better if you have configurable average RMS limiter plus. Some of the loudspeaker management processors built-in the amp even calculates with the actual voice coil dissipation too. You need to maintain the integrity of peaks bellow the rails and not exceeding the long-term rms limits of voice coils.
About the burst ratings of output definition: http://pkndigital.co.uk/3Phase20K-40K Spec PDF.pdf
where they stated 8:32 1KHz... this is looks 1:3 ratio too anyways.
I would bet this PKN is the largest pro amp and the power levels maximizied around 2.6R and 4R are much more valuable than 2R or lower in the perspective of professional user.
Professional amplifier DOES NOT WORK without limiters! Minimum requirement is the peak limiter, better if you have configurable average RMS limiter plus. Some of the loudspeaker management processors built-in the amp even calculates with the actual voice coil dissipation too. You need to maintain the integrity of peaks bellow the rails and not exceeding the long-term rms limits of voice coils.
About the burst ratings of output definition: http://pkndigital.co.uk/3Phase20K-40K Spec PDF.pdf
where they stated 8:32 1KHz... this is looks 1:3 ratio too anyways.
I would bet this PKN is the largest pro amp and the power levels maximizied around 2.6R and 4R are much more valuable than 2R or lower in the perspective of professional user.
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The bottom line is that the amplifier can't deliver 10,000 watts of sine wave power per channel.
They can manipulate the numbers any way they like.
A 40 kilowatt amplifier should be able to produce 40 kilowatts of continuous power.
Who would purchase such an amplifier? Venues which require very high power would typically use multiple amplifiers to prevent total system shutdown due to amplifier failure.
They can manipulate the numbers any way they like.
A 40 kilowatt amplifier should be able to produce 40 kilowatts of continuous power.
Who would purchase such an amplifier? Venues which require very high power would typically use multiple amplifiers to prevent total system shutdown due to amplifier failure.
I'm curious about the price point. If they can come in cheaper than Powersoft then they do have a chance.
There are few 8R speakers with 3000-4000W peak capability. These speakers can not handle more than 600W-1KW long term average power on their voice coils therefore the 10KW continuous sine ratings is simply "not important" just like most of similar LabGruppen, Crown amplifiers.
But there's nothing keeping us from hooking several dozen speakers in series/parallel. Do you really think anyone would buy such an amp to wire it to A SINGLE speaker?
That PKN 3PHASE is bigger than Powersoft K20 by at least 30%. It is almost not a noticeable difference in loudness by an inexperienced listener but could be significant when K20 reaches its peak while the output Voltage of PKN is still well between the rails. When the signal hits the rails is noticeable even with the best limiter. The PKN would gives more headroom.
Our medium sized jobs usually employ 8-12 large format subs per side. These subs driven by various bridged amps now, configured to 4R. It is easy to imagine the number of amps required so this new PKN would be much nicer.
The entire problem is that the amplifier and loudspeaker manufacturers are pulling numbers out of thin air.
Amplifier output power should be measured using continuous sine waves (RMS power).
Loudspeakers should be rated for their ability to handle sine waves (RMS power).
The 'peak power' numbers don't mean anything. How are the 'peak' numbers calculated?
Granted .... the continuous sine wave numbers will be smaller but they will be realistic.
Perhaps we, the consumers, should demand more accurate and consistent specifications.
I saw an online ad for a loudspeaker today. 10 watts continuous .... 200 watts peak.
Okay. Enough said. Thanks for letting me rant.
Amplifier output power should be measured using continuous sine waves (RMS power).
Loudspeakers should be rated for their ability to handle sine waves (RMS power).
The 'peak power' numbers don't mean anything. How are the 'peak' numbers calculated?
Granted .... the continuous sine wave numbers will be smaller but they will be realistic.
Perhaps we, the consumers, should demand more accurate and consistent specifications.
I saw an online ad for a loudspeaker today. 10 watts continuous .... 200 watts peak.
Okay. Enough said. Thanks for letting me rant.
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