Thank you for this link Chrisb, it puts on light things i didn't know about Maui and Hawaii. Some very sad analysis of the situation they live and wise words from M.Ing imho.
Native community should be listened more and lead the future of their land.
I lived on Maui for years, and even when I was on the Big Island I spent a lot of time on Maui for work. It's horrible and almost unbelievable to see Lahaina in complete ruins. Many friends had art galleries and studios there, I suppose all gone - I haven't heard. The loss is hard to wrap my head around.
Here is the only business of an acquaintance that I have seen pictures of. Looks to be a complete loss. Lahaina wasn't a big place, but now there's nothing left.
Here is the only business of an acquaintance that I have seen pictures of. Looks to be a complete loss. Lahaina wasn't a big place, but now there's nothing left.
Horrible. Just horrible. Please remember to have a plan for whatever natural disasters might come your way, be it fires or flooding or landslide or earthquake or cyclone or tsunami or whatever else.... Have your emergency bag waiting. Talk to your family about what you will do and where you will meet. Know the disaster plans from your kids schools. Reach out to those older neighbours that might need help if disaster strikes, before it happens. Preparation saves lives.
How to donate
We gave to Maui Strong. Gave some now, plan to give more later since its obviously going to take years to recover.
Few years ago we had to evacuate for a week because of a fire. Like Astrojet said, have a plan so you know what to get if you need to get out quickly.
Mainly we took the pictures and hard drives, irreplaceable memories kind of stuff. That and some clothes.
We gave to Maui Strong. Gave some now, plan to give more later since its obviously going to take years to recover.
Few years ago we had to evacuate for a week because of a fire. Like Astrojet said, have a plan so you know what to get if you need to get out quickly.
Mainly we took the pictures and hard drives, irreplaceable memories kind of stuff. That and some clothes.
1) Hawaiian Electric getting some blame for not inspecting poles and lines - apparently aware of PG@Es issues.
2) Fire hydrants empty and not well maintained.
3) Residents said alarm sirens were not activated.
2) Fire hydrants empty and not well maintained.
3) Residents said alarm sirens were not activated.
The answer is based on the priorities of the political body of the State, so I'll tread very lightly on it.
My brother in law and sister spent a few years living in Oahu in late 2000s. They got out, great weather... the priorities of the State and County were misplaced.
Bottom line is that the moneys were not spent on necessary infrastructure and into planning for disasters.
Then they got rid of the roll on high speed interisland ferry which means all traffic is via airplane or cargo barges. If they'd had the ferries they could have carried QUICKLY lots of fire, emergency and utility repair trucks to Maui. Indeed, they could have a plan in place to send such vehicles on an interisland basis as needed.
Bottom line? No planning. No desire to spend the money on pot holes. NIMBY's not wanting ferry traffic on "their" island.
Yes, Lahaina is (was?) a very nice place but in its location ( leeward, dry season, quaint wood construction) it was a disaster waiting to happen. Just like Paradise, CA.
It's sad. At least it looks like Robert Lynn Nelson is down at Wailea but they lost their house in Lahaina... they're done fine otherwise. We got a couple of their Most Awesome Prints in our dining room so you can say we are always looking at Lahaina.
You can leave it all behind
And sail to Lahaina
Just like the missionaries did
So many years ago
They even brought a neon sign
"Jesus is coming"
They brought the white man's burden down
Brought the white man's reign
I just hope that as they rebuild it they won't turn it into Hawai'i Kai or like Disney's resorts... Hawai'i For Haoles.
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Unfortunately, that's becoming very obvious in the aftermath of this catastrophe. 🙁
jeff
My nephew and family have moved to Yellowknife (from Paris, France). He’s been telling us about the smoke from the fires up there.
Indeed, it seems the whole planet is cooking. 30 days of =>43C in Phoenix. The world is a very different place to the one I was born into that’s for sure.
Indeed, it seems the whole planet is cooking. 30 days of =>43C in Phoenix. The world is a very different place to the one I was born into that’s for sure.
Hey, I resent that.
I like the Costa Brava. And Patatas Bravas too.
My home country.
Back on topic... the hillsides East of Lahaina are mostly shrubs. It's the leeward part of the island. It's actually pretty similar to our Coastal SoCal mountains around Laguna Beach and Malibu. The main exception being that when we have fires in Laguna Beach and Malibu we have lots of fire trucks, lots of water pressure, big planes that dump tons of fostex and, given the ocean is 'right there' they can always pump water from the ocean... ( as they did during the Loma Prieta quake in SF ).
It's all a matter of planning.
Saying it can "happen anywhere" is a victim viewpoint ( a fallacy IMHO ) and underscores two items:
(1) Invalidates the claim from the Governor of Hawai'i that "it was catastrophic and you couldn't expect it" - pass the buck, eh governor?
(2) We must plan for such events. Just as chipmunks store food for the winter, we humans must plan ahead for events. Not planning is not a excuse.
Hopefully when Lahaina rises back from the ashes they will bury the electrical cables underground, ensure that there is a water reservoir above the city with sufficient water and the building codes emphasize fire proofing. Sure it will cost some money... so what?
Indeed, given how Maui is laid out, they might want to look at doing that on most of the island. The large population centers in that island are on the leeward side.
Hmm... next time we go to Hawai'i, I think I'd like to spend some time in Maui and drink some rum on its NW Coast.
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Here in the Southwest of the United States we call it... SUMMER.
Did you know that 1936 was actually hotter?
It may sound obvious today, but back in the day cell text messaging was an optional service.
In case of quakes and such, cell phone voice calls are unlikely to be connected but your text messages will get through.
So, get a point of contact in a geographically remote area to coordinate your communications. Text that person and have them relay your status.
Worst case, get a powerful walkie talkie radio.
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That’s a nice thought, but my experience in Superior has been quite different.
When the rebuilding started, few could or wanted to pay for the new building codes and fireproofed infrastructure. Many asked for exceptions and to be allowed to rebuild according to the codes of their original house.
Local government was obviously more responsible, but will have to face the music if new taxes are necessary.
In our case, at least, the fundamental issue is that it’s difficult to mitigate a scenario where it’s very warm until Christmas’ Eve, with no rain or snow since May/June, lots of dry land and dry vegetation, and high winds very late in the year. [In Colorado!]
I think there’s such a thing as “perfect storm” events.
But, yes, someone will have to pay and hope mitigation can be enough, or more disasters will cause loss of life.
I guess it comes down to pay it now or pay it later ( with lives )...
In my City, cables and vaults are underground (*), there are strict fire codes, we have build reservoirs to provide water and we have a strong fire department (the whole county is on it).
It did cost a bunch, but when we had a fire come up the back hill side in the late 90s, the fire crews stopped it at the ridgeline. The entire neighborhood ( about 12000 people at the time) were evacuated,
Yours truly, after sending the wife, kids and dogs to the mother in law's, stayed home with a few neighbors, hoses and good bottles of 18 year single malts. I recall jumping on the roof with a hose and a tumbler full of whiskey. Some how we all survived, although the next morning I had a hangover from Hell.
Anyhow, quality construction costs money.
(*) Oh... underground vaults... so one day, one of the big transformers blew up. The manhole, one of those BIG manholes went up in the air and landed 100 yards down the street. BOOOOOMMMM.......... KLANK... KLANK... KLANK.... Thank God it was a Sunday morning so there were no cars on the street at the time and it didn't go flying into any houses... like mine... Yikes. It was spectacular... and we didn't lose power as it was a different vault from ours.
Bushfires are all over the place.
Monday a friend had to run with her family from a camping in hills arround Argelès-sur-Mer (south-western France) because a bushfire came very fast very big and burned the camping site where about 3000 tourists were and the 450ha (1112 acress) arround it. Everybody got away, but a lot lost all their stuff on the camping site. My friend was there with a camper so they could move it fast and lost nothing. Now they are in the region camping on a local farm, far away from the fires
And an other friend saw a big bushfire going trough the valley near where he lives in central Portugal last week. His house was not in danger, but parts of the village were also burned. And the whole Mediterranée (the region arround the Mediterranean) has a lot of busfires, from Portugal to Turkey to even Israel and the whole north of Africa. Especially in Greece and Morroco and Algeria there were huge fires destroying many Ha of nature, and sometimes also villages. Luckely no cities the size of Lahaina were burned yet. Bushfires are normal in that region, but not with the size and intensity that they have now.
Monday a friend had to run with her family from a camping in hills arround Argelès-sur-Mer (south-western France) because a bushfire came very fast very big and burned the camping site where about 3000 tourists were and the 450ha (1112 acress) arround it. Everybody got away, but a lot lost all their stuff on the camping site. My friend was there with a camper so they could move it fast and lost nothing. Now they are in the region camping on a local farm, far away from the fires
And an other friend saw a big bushfire going trough the valley near where he lives in central Portugal last week. His house was not in danger, but parts of the village were also burned. And the whole Mediterranée (the region arround the Mediterranean) has a lot of busfires, from Portugal to Turkey to even Israel and the whole north of Africa. Especially in Greece and Morroco and Algeria there were huge fires destroying many Ha of nature, and sometimes also villages. Luckely no cities the size of Lahaina were burned yet. Bushfires are normal in that region, but not with the size and intensity that they have now.
Thread cleaned up and points given. Since many of you can't follow the forum rules, this thread will be locked if the rule breaking continues.
On Hawaiian Electric from one of my dealers (8/16/23):
We reduce our PO to $11/sh on true uncertainty of liability Hawaiian Electric Industries (HEI) stock had its worst day on record Monday -34% bringing the five-day decline to -43% as investors embed material liabilities from the tragic wildfires. The death count from the wildfires is ~100 and expected to rise by local officials as the search continues. Although there is limited information so far, investors appear to be assuming the worst given billions of dollars of wildfire exposure for Western US peers in California, Oregon, and Colorado. <SNIP> What’s priced-in? $1.8Bn vs ~$5.3Bn public dmg estimates Prior to any wildfire impacts, we value the utility at ~$3,300Mn ($30/sh), the bank at $570Mn ($5/sh), and the HoldCo drag at -$675Mn (-$6/sh). HE’s market cap has fallen from $4.1Bn August 7th to $2.3Bn August 14th with investors pricing-in $1.8Bn economic impact. This compares to $5.1Bn average and $5.5Bn median damage estimates publicly available ($1.3-$9Bn midpoint range). Investors are effectively pricing in ~33% liability of $5.3Bn damages and liabilities not being limited to the smaller Maui Electric sub.
Hawaii is not California: no inverse condemnation statute The state of Hawaii does not appear to have inverse condemnation for utilities from media reports and our statute review. The California legal standard is more onerous than in Hawaii and the majority of states. This still is an area of uncertainty for the company.
No confirmation of utility cause of wildfire There have been multiple media reports attributing the wildfire to active power lines but no definitive cause has been confirmed. In interviews with residents, USA Today mentioned transformer fires. Hawaiian Electric has reported multiple downed power electric utility poles attributed to high winds. HE has not determined and does not have the information on what caused the fire. HE is cooperating in the investigations/review pending which the Governor stated could take weeks or months to resolve.
We reduce our PO to $11/sh on true uncertainty of liability Hawaiian Electric Industries (HEI) stock had its worst day on record Monday -34% bringing the five-day decline to -43% as investors embed material liabilities from the tragic wildfires. The death count from the wildfires is ~100 and expected to rise by local officials as the search continues. Although there is limited information so far, investors appear to be assuming the worst given billions of dollars of wildfire exposure for Western US peers in California, Oregon, and Colorado. <SNIP> What’s priced-in? $1.8Bn vs ~$5.3Bn public dmg estimates Prior to any wildfire impacts, we value the utility at ~$3,300Mn ($30/sh), the bank at $570Mn ($5/sh), and the HoldCo drag at -$675Mn (-$6/sh). HE’s market cap has fallen from $4.1Bn August 7th to $2.3Bn August 14th with investors pricing-in $1.8Bn economic impact. This compares to $5.1Bn average and $5.5Bn median damage estimates publicly available ($1.3-$9Bn midpoint range). Investors are effectively pricing in ~33% liability of $5.3Bn damages and liabilities not being limited to the smaller Maui Electric sub.
Hawaii is not California: no inverse condemnation statute The state of Hawaii does not appear to have inverse condemnation for utilities from media reports and our statute review. The California legal standard is more onerous than in Hawaii and the majority of states. This still is an area of uncertainty for the company.
No confirmation of utility cause of wildfire There have been multiple media reports attributing the wildfire to active power lines but no definitive cause has been confirmed. In interviews with residents, USA Today mentioned transformer fires. Hawaiian Electric has reported multiple downed power electric utility poles attributed to high winds. HE has not determined and does not have the information on what caused the fire. HE is cooperating in the investigations/review pending which the Governor stated could take weeks or months to resolve.
Watched someone's cellphone video on the news last night clearly showing downed power lines, with the surrounding grass on fire.
jeff
It could also be lightning that causes it. The most bushfires start with lightning hitting very dry bushes that catch fire, followed by fires started by human pyromaniac, often for bussiness reasons (free up land). Cutted powerlines are very rarely the cause of bushfires, because the ground is a .. ground for it and takes away most of the current immediatly. Very high voltages can cause that, i don't know if Mauri has such high voltage lines, we are talking about lines of 50kV or more. Lightning is a very high voltage electrostatic discharge of the atmosphere of at least a few millions of volt (can also be a few hundred million) and a few thousands to a few million of ampere, but for a very short time. What happened exact, i can't tell off course, only local experts can. I live on the other side of the planet...
But i know a local powerline went down in a hay field here in my street last summer during the extreme heat (+40°C) that was already going on for a while and that 400V line did not cause a bushfire, just a hard electricity explosion and then the power went down due to safety systems in the distirbution system. The local firebrigade came to take a look and secure the envirroment, but except a few dead birds and a few hours no current, there was no impact on the region.
But i know a local powerline went down in a hay field here in my street last summer during the extreme heat (+40°C) that was already going on for a while and that 400V line did not cause a bushfire, just a hard electricity explosion and then the power went down due to safety systems in the distirbution system. The local firebrigade came to take a look and secure the envirroment, but except a few dead birds and a few hours no current, there was no impact on the region.
The winds could indeed cause downed power lines... but, that is sort of an outlier... if the posts are standing up, the power lines will swing but they tend to stay up ( small cross section ).... Do power lines experience harmonic oscillation on a cross wind?
Here in California, most of our wind caused power line issues occur when the power lines swing and touch the vegetation below. This is due to poor (or regulation mandated ) lack of maintenance and tree clearing on the power line rights of way through the mountains.
Most of the time, our issues are with heavy usage of power, lines heating up and sagging and poor tree clearing... Poof! The lines are live, current flows, pine trees catch on fire...
I'm not quite sure this could happen in Maui since the leeward is not heavily wooded and the windward side is too wet to catch on fire.
Of course, you have the pyromaniacs. If this happened in Lahaina, throw them to the sharks.
Based on reports on line, it seems like cutting off the flow of water to Lahaina was the trigger point. Up to that point in time they were making a stand, after that it was impossible to stop the flames.
So, who ever was responsible for shutting off the water is responsible. Ideally they should place water reservoirs high enough above the city to use plain gravity to provide water pressure... not pumps. From an engineering/hydrologist viewpoint, this should not be hard to do in a place like Maui where the population centers are all downhill from tall mountains. But that might run into the environmentalists and the cheap skates. You can look at coastal Orange County CA and the City of Santa Barbara to see how this is done: we don't need no stinking pumps to provide water pressure to anything but the highest plots of land.
Here in California, most of our wind caused power line issues occur when the power lines swing and touch the vegetation below. This is due to poor (or regulation mandated ) lack of maintenance and tree clearing on the power line rights of way through the mountains.
Most of the time, our issues are with heavy usage of power, lines heating up and sagging and poor tree clearing... Poof! The lines are live, current flows, pine trees catch on fire...
I'm not quite sure this could happen in Maui since the leeward is not heavily wooded and the windward side is too wet to catch on fire.
Of course, you have the pyromaniacs. If this happened in Lahaina, throw them to the sharks.
Based on reports on line, it seems like cutting off the flow of water to Lahaina was the trigger point. Up to that point in time they were making a stand, after that it was impossible to stop the flames.
So, who ever was responsible for shutting off the water is responsible. Ideally they should place water reservoirs high enough above the city to use plain gravity to provide water pressure... not pumps. From an engineering/hydrologist viewpoint, this should not be hard to do in a place like Maui where the population centers are all downhill from tall mountains. But that might run into the environmentalists and the cheap skates. You can look at coastal Orange County CA and the City of Santa Barbara to see how this is done: we don't need no stinking pumps to provide water pressure to anything but the highest plots of land.
Apparently, the pumps are electrically driven, so obviously they will stop when the power grid goes bye-bye.
And there were power poles down, which is why the wires were down, which was why the grass was on fire.
jeff
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