Hi Steve -
I too am sorry that you've chosen to leave this thread - I don't believe I've posted in it yet, because I -know- that I haven't the skill, nor budget, to build your amplifier and do it justice.
Nonetheless, I've read this thread nearly everyday to see what came of it, because it seems a genuinely interesting amplifier, and I was very much interested to see what designs came out once people understood it and began applying their own preferences and theories to modifying the design.
It looks like maybe that will never happen now. Seems a waste of a good topology, and a sad destination for an optimistic thread.
Strange to see so many of the voices that I respect on this forum are in dissent about this one. So be it.
I too am sorry that you've chosen to leave this thread - I don't believe I've posted in it yet, because I -know- that I haven't the skill, nor budget, to build your amplifier and do it justice.
Nonetheless, I've read this thread nearly everyday to see what came of it, because it seems a genuinely interesting amplifier, and I was very much interested to see what designs came out once people understood it and began applying their own preferences and theories to modifying the design.
It looks like maybe that will never happen now. Seems a waste of a good topology, and a sad destination for an optimistic thread.
Strange to see so many of the voices that I respect on this forum are in dissent about this one. So be it.
I hope you lot are proud of your behaviour.
I am disgusted that yet another expert has been hounded, to the point of departure.
Grow up and behave like civilised adults.
I am disgusted that yet another expert has been hounded, to the point of departure.
Grow up and behave like civilised adults.
To: andyc
Andy, I was comparing your simulation model (post 846) with the most recent (I think) of Steve's 50W schematics. In the latter, Steve uses power transistors (2SC5200 & 2SA1943) for both outputs and drivers...your Q14 and Q13 and Q15 & Q16. Your model, on the other hand, uses low power transistors for the drivers. I know you are very conscientious about details so this inconsistency caught my eye.
I have never seen a circuit before that uses the same power transistors for both output and drivers. This is an expensive thing to do so Steve must have a good reason for it. I'm curious about this.
Brian
Andy, I was comparing your simulation model (post 846) with the most recent (I think) of Steve's 50W schematics. In the latter, Steve uses power transistors (2SC5200 & 2SA1943) for both outputs and drivers...your Q14 and Q13 and Q15 & Q16. Your model, on the other hand, uses low power transistors for the drivers. I know you are very conscientious about details so this inconsistency caught my eye.
I have never seen a circuit before that uses the same power transistors for both output and drivers. This is an expensive thing to do so Steve must have a good reason for it. I'm curious about this.
Brian
traderbam said:
Power Transistors being used as drivers in the same circuit is a common feature in high power PA amps. However, in most they are preceded by a pre-driver stage.
Don't we get what we ask for? Steve asked for this - early on he complained that there wasn't enough attention paid to this thread, not enough discussion. What started this latest wave of "simulation punks"? His own claim - I see it as an invitation:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1752116#post1752116
If you don't want the attention of the local bully's, don't show up in their clubhouse daring them to fight you.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1752116#post1752116
If you don't want the attention of the local bully's, don't show up in their clubhouse daring them to fight you.
So MJL, you consider yourself one of the local bullies, do you? Very telling self diagnosis!. I believe deep psychological counselling might be needed!
Like the great unheard here, I too am disgusted with Steve's treatment here at the hands of the "bully gang" & I believe Steve has become sensitised & prickly as a result.
This first started over at the Curl Blowtorch thread where Steve was directly challenged to back up his claims for the specs of this amp but due to his physical limitations he is/was not able to provide current technical measurements. Steve stated this and also that he had done these measurements in the past & that was what he was reporting in his claims.
"Impossible", said the bullying crowd, now with a smell of blood stirring their animalistic tendencies. So they backed Steve firstly into the Class A OPS argument, which went on interminably.
Then the postings came here and the bullies followed, smelling more blood was yet to be shed. This time the weapon of choice was the simulator - thereby proving that the reality doesn't exist because it can't be simulated.
I don't blame Steve for his decision, I regret it, particularly as he has stated early in this thread that posting here has given him a better & more outwardly outlook than in the past year or so.
I hope the self proclaimed bullies are now satisfied (although I know they will move on to the next victim). I particularly hope the moderators have taken note of these bullies and propose to do something about them!
Like the great unheard here, I too am disgusted with Steve's treatment here at the hands of the "bully gang" & I believe Steve has become sensitised & prickly as a result.
This first started over at the Curl Blowtorch thread where Steve was directly challenged to back up his claims for the specs of this amp but due to his physical limitations he is/was not able to provide current technical measurements. Steve stated this and also that he had done these measurements in the past & that was what he was reporting in his claims.
"Impossible", said the bullying crowd, now with a smell of blood stirring their animalistic tendencies. So they backed Steve firstly into the Class A OPS argument, which went on interminably.
Then the postings came here and the bullies followed, smelling more blood was yet to be shed. This time the weapon of choice was the simulator - thereby proving that the reality doesn't exist because it can't be simulated.
I don't blame Steve for his decision, I regret it, particularly as he has stated early in this thread that posting here has given him a better & more outwardly outlook than in the past year or so.
I hope the self proclaimed bullies are now satisfied (although I know they will move on to the next victim). I particularly hope the moderators have taken note of these bullies and propose to do something about them!
MJL21193 said:
Please remember that "we" went to Steve and ASKED him to graciously hand over his design for our own DIY use and discourse.
MJL21193 said:
John, I am a little surprised by these comments ...
jkeny said:
Yes, absolutely correct and incredible shame ... 🙁
tsmith1315 said:
Yes, absolutely correct ...
jkeny said:
Nope. I have been harassed by you though, to the point where your offensive attack was removed by a mod. Remember?
This is "very telling". 🙂
tsmith1315 said:
Where did I say that I have anything against Steve or his design? A lot of misunderstanding here. I made some comments about class A on the blowtorch thread and the "discussion" moved here (when it was quickly quelled by jkeny).
I made a comment over there too that was directed at someone, but Steve thought I meant him. I tried to point out earlier that it was not directed at him, and I even sent him a PM explaining this, but received no response.
This is awful, I didn't want to be any part of this, even as
I did simulate steves amp.. 🙁 (I tried to back steves
claims and In my opinion the krill is a very good unique
design.)
I was "bullied" in some threads, but that only incites me
to try harder/get smarter. Not to become an aggressor , for
in a forum , I don't think that matters at all.
This sort discourages me from contributing anything.
perhaps Carlos was right in his "shut up and build it"
attitude.. 😡
OS
MJL if you don't acknowledge the universal condemnation of your shameful statement, then you have severe problems!
Oh, c'mon... I think, part of the bewilderness comes from the notion that all sim results are orders of magnitude worse than what is claimed for the real thing (I repeat, I have no reason to doubt Steves figures, for obvoius reasons). This is very seldom, normally one expects sim results to be overly optimistic compared to reality. Imperfect models for quasi-sat operation were suspected to be a possible cause, but Brians (or was it Glen?) cap shunt test gives rise to the assumption that this might not be the core of the dilemma.jkeny said:
Only way to get out of here to sim the thing thoroughly and carefully with the best models we can find (like andy_c's OnSemi Power-BJTs, etc) and then countercheck this with a real prototype. We just don't know yet, that's all.
Regarding conversation style, everybody knows (or should know) that forums are hell, especially when someone presents claims that can be considered too spectacular with some justification. I mean, ppm and sub-ppm THD20 levels sans FB are very bold statements.
But then again, even with some 0.1% worst case THD20 (choosing the right signal and load) this OS could be pefectly labelled as pretty good.
- Klaus
Listen Klaus,
Have you not read repeatedly that there is a big problem with the sim s/w in dealing with this circuit as the bias transistors operate near saturation? This has been stated so many times so why continue to persue an argument down a known cul-de-sac?!
Have you not read repeatedly that there is a big problem with the sim s/w in dealing with this circuit as the bias transistors operate near saturation? This has been stated so many times so why continue to persue an argument down a known cul-de-sac?!
Likewise i feel sorry and glad at the same time. Sorry for obvious reason and glad that Steve finally leave this forum! He offered a great deal of patience and tolerance aside from the unique design that are spoon fed to the wise and theorists...I'm so glad ha ha ha!!! 🙂
Senor Carlos DestroyerX, just as you always say build something not only simulate. Guys pls dont get me wrong I have nothing against simulation but please build something if you want to prove your excellent theories, and once you build something do the actual measurement yourselves and prove your theories, not to be spoon fed. Einstein proved his theories by conducting experiments, by work, by perspiration, but critics are always there to prove he's wrong just by talking...Ha ha ha!!! Like politicians!!! 😀
Just reading the posts of the experts criticizing are really annoying, then somebody will say you better stop reading...ha ha ha! Or will say we don't criticize only giving opinion...I appeal to you dear experts, our culture is different from your culture but a smile is a smile, a cry is a cry and an insult is an insult. Ha ha ha...that's a laugh because i'm glad 😀
be happy,
mannycc
That's what I was referring to (but haven't investigated myself, so far).traderbam said:
This is why I said we'd need to build something running in quasi-sat and then check against the real world...
- Klaus
KLe said:
Hi KL,
Why? I'm just stating my perspective on it.
You probably misread my comment as: "Steve deserves to be bullied"
That's not what I said.
jkeny said:
What are you? Grand inquisitor? Who appointed you champion of the downtrodden?
You'd have me tried, convicted and hung in your kangaroo court. You want to psycho-analyze me? You don't even know me.
KSTR said:
Hi Klaus,
I just checked out the MJE340 model in andyc's sim and found it looked inaccurate, but I can't find a datasheet that shows the curves to compare. But here's the LTSpice curves for BC546B (I think I got the model from Fairchild - can't remember), but it deviates significantly from the datasheet.
I think we can say that andyc's MJE340 models the saturation curve, it just doesn't accurately model it. Whether an accurate model would make any significant difference I am not so sure.
Brian
Attachments
...people are often fearful and insecure, no matter what their technical competence may be... no matter what their "job" or income level may be, or lack thereof...
having been on the internet pretty much since it's earliest days, back when webpages were still a spec in development, I've seen the sort of thing that has just happened now happen over and over. The closer in time to now, the more often it has happened. It is comensurate with the broader population at large coming "on-board."
the thing that the internet seems to do is to provide a sort of "armor" that one can don and then "act out" in a variety of ways that one usually can not do in real life...perhaps something of a version of Dungeons and Dragons (ick) but somewhat less explicitly so.
people who "act out" as some do on forums (and this is pretty mild compared to other places I have seen) would likely be seen as dysfunctional by society at large (at home, on the job?) if they behaved this way out there - and who knows, maybe they are so back in reality? the internet seems to embolden some to behave in ways that I am fairly certain that they know is not appropriate otherwise.
imho this happens because we are insecure, fearful and/or angry... maybe even puffed up like a blowfish as a result?
...and in this case, what is the trigger? a stupid audio circuit.
geez...
_-_-bear
having been on the internet pretty much since it's earliest days, back when webpages were still a spec in development, I've seen the sort of thing that has just happened now happen over and over. The closer in time to now, the more often it has happened. It is comensurate with the broader population at large coming "on-board."
the thing that the internet seems to do is to provide a sort of "armor" that one can don and then "act out" in a variety of ways that one usually can not do in real life...perhaps something of a version of Dungeons and Dragons (ick) but somewhat less explicitly so.
people who "act out" as some do on forums (and this is pretty mild compared to other places I have seen) would likely be seen as dysfunctional by society at large (at home, on the job?) if they behaved this way out there - and who knows, maybe they are so back in reality? the internet seems to embolden some to behave in ways that I am fairly certain that they know is not appropriate otherwise.
imho this happens because we are insecure, fearful and/or angry... maybe even puffed up like a blowfish as a result?
...and in this case, what is the trigger? a stupid audio circuit.
geez...
_-_-bear
bear, I assure you, there's no acting out on my part. I haven't said anything here that I wouldn't say in the physical presence of the person I'm addressing. I "don no armour" here.
I do see a lot of what you are referring to though - I've seen despicable behavior.
I do see a lot of what you are referring to though - I've seen despicable behavior.
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