Hi Scott, thanks for the nice reply
So I'm gathering you are speaking of an all analogue system.... vinyl records, and either passive, or analog active, xovers, EQ's, delays, all pass etc..?
The good ole days
Sometimes I miss playing with moving coil cartridges, head amps and such, but last time I tried to resurrect my LP collection, i found it so scratched and dirty it was hopeless. Somehow my youthful ears didn't record any memory of the records being somewhat abused.. lol
Anyway, I'm not so sure it makes sense to use an all analogue system to question the efficacy of dsp vs passive or active analog, xovers, EQs, etc.
Because, is there such a thing as a "pure" all analog system, once the source is fully considered?
I think even though we may have a source that's considered analog, ie a vinyl recording, isn't it almost 100% probable it was recorded and mastered digitally before it went to the lathe and press??
So in my mind, there is simply something desirable in the sound of vinyl, if it's not exactly the sound of the digital master, and people prefer it.
A euphoric distortion of some sort???
A euphoric distortion that gets killed if it goes though an AD/DA process?
Must be it seems if there's truly an audible difference from adding digital into the flow that started out digital....But dunno....just thinking out loud.
I'd love to see some fine detailed research, as to how a signal straight from a phono cartridge varies from taking that same signal through AD/DA conversion....or if it varies...
Sorry - I dont understand what you are writing
Lets get some things straight - you are listening to a Revel Salon 2 - it already has controlled directivity - so no need to DSP anything.
Controlled directivity is optained by a combination of drivers, filters and the front baffle - unless you do alot of trickery like B&O 50 and 90.
A DSP can "only" change level, phase and delay - you cannot change directivity directly.
There must be some flaw in the setup, some wrong premise, something that was not thought through..... or else you statement makes no sense
Cause what did they do? Did they try to EQ the Revels to the room? Did they try and make the impulse response better? Did they simply run through a second time on an A/D converter?
They must have fiddled with the signal somehow.... something that ruined it, so that you heard that lack of transparency.
Only time I heard any DSP ruin a signal that much - was when trying to force FIR on an already running system, to get that "dreamy" impulse response.
A great video about A/D and D/A conversion
YouTube
Hi Scott, thanks for the nice reply
So I'm gathering you are speaking of an all analogue system.... vinyl records, and either passive, or analog active, xovers, EQ's, delays, all pass etc..?
The good ole days
Sometimes I miss playing with moving coil cartridges, head amps and such, but last time I tried to resurrect my LP collection, i found it so scratched and dirty it was hopeless. Somehow my youthful ears didn't record any memory of the records being somewhat abused.. lol
Anyway, I'm not so sure it makes sense to use an all analogue system to question the efficacy of dsp vs passive or active analog, xovers, EQs, etc.
Because, is there such a thing as a "pure" all analog system, once the source is fully considered?
I think even though we may have a source that's considered analog, ie a vinyl recording, isn't it almost 100% probable it was recorded and mastered digitally before it went to the lathe and press??
So in my mind, there is simply something desirable in the sound of vinyl, if it's not exactly the sound of the digital master, and people prefer it.
A euphoric distortion of some sort???
A euphoric distortion that gets killed if it goes though an AD/DA process?
Must be it seems if there's truly an audible difference from adding digital into the flow that started out digital....But dunno....just thinking out loud.
I'd love to see some fine detailed research, as to how a signal straight from a phono cartridge varies from taking that same signal through AD/DA conversion....or if it varies...
I'm really not that much of a "vinyl guy". I do keep a decent turntable set up, but mostly just to humour a few of my audio buddies who think it's still the year 1979.
My analogue source is that of reel-to-reel tape. I have two machines. One allows playback of 2-track master tapes at 15IPS, the other is quite nice for 4-track 7.5IPS
My speaker system is very well thought out and operates with an analogue active crossover system. This particular unit uses discreet transistor circuitry, emitter-follower, single end based. No op-amps.
The speaker system is a 4-way, high efficiency approach. 100db/watt from 25-30K Hz. It is time aligned and each of the 4 frequency sections operates in a linear fashion well withing the designated crossover bands. There is no need for any sort of dsp twiddling. The listening room is treated with many acoustic devices. There is no slap echo. There are no nasty reflections or does there require any sort of goofy device such as a di-pole.
The system resolution and retrieval of fine inner detail is quite shocking to those who visit, and listen for the first time. We, the listeners are not transported to the venue, but rather, the performance is delivered right into the room. Listening to Chet Atkins, "Most Popular Guitar", he might as well be sitting on a bar stool right in front of us.
Replacing my custom crossover with some sort of behringer/or/equivalent mini-dsp would most assuredly completely ruin what I have accomplished.
That is why I tend to say that it would be good to somehow measure such cases (or find how to show the differences) so that we not only toss in words, but also have some evidence. From this we could also draw conclusions, we would make fewer mistakes in the future, manufacturers would have a direction of development for example.
In an other forum, there was some guys, they placed a minidsp unit between their high praised full analouge gear, they couldn't tell the the difference with or without the dsp unit with it's AD-DA conversion and so.
Last edited:
Sorry - I dont understand what you are writing
Lets get some things straight - you are listening to a Revel Salon 2 - it already has controlled directivity - so no need to DSP anything.
Controlled directivity is optained by a combination of drivers, filters and the front baffle - unless you do alot of trickery like B&O 50 and 90.
A DSP can "only" change level, phase and delay - you cannot change directivity directly.
There must be some flaw in the setup, some wrong premise, something that was not thought through..... or else you statement makes no sense
Cause what did they do? Did they try to EQ the Revels to the room? Did they try and make the impulse response better? Did they simply run through a second time on an A/D converter?
They must have fiddled with the signal somehow.... something that ruined it, so that you heard that lack of transparency.
Only time I heard any DSP ruin a signal that much - was when trying to force FIR on an already running system, to get that "dreamy" impulse response.
A great video about A/D and D/A conversion
YouTube
It is very simple, I gave you example of how extra AD/DA conversion destroys transparency. I am not describing any changes to Revel Salon 2, no one attempted to do any EQ, any DSP, but assess the impact of AD/DA conversion.
Last edited:
And this is why I am wondering if PSI Audio A23-M with its analog active cross-over would be significantly better than its DSP based counterparts Kii Three and D&D 8c, despite DSP being capable of doing more.
You were listening to another DAC, the one that the processor uses. Why not place that DAC after the processor unit? Digital out from processor unit to DAC, let that one do the final DA step. Most processor units have a digital out anyway.
Why would one use a good DAC and not 'really' use it. If the source was digital, there would only be one DA step. If the source was analog, feed it into the processor.
Have the DAC do the final DA.
Why create any more conversions than needed. I've seen it done quite often, I cannot figure out why.
Good story about the processor though. Well regarded but not able to remember the name. Well regarded by whom?
Get them into the same room to make it a fair battle. All bets are off if you don't.
I don't buy the part that you really want to know either way. Your mind is made up already. I'll log out of this and won't bother you anymore.
If you really want to know, look around. There are many happy users of DSP and you might find one close to you to have a listen.
I've entertained more than one forum member with my DSP solution. Better to experience a good DSP system than to make up how it can't be all that and more. Many things can go wrong, that's for sure. But put a little energy into it and it can perform quite convincing.
I do not ping/pong the signal though. Digital source, one D/A step. I like being transported to the venue, so I do use specific room treatment.
I don use a miniDSP or other DSP box though. A PC as source and DSP unit, a genuine DAC for output. I do hear differences between DAC's and differences between amplifiers. I've also measured differences, but sometimes wonder why I hear a difference if measurements show no real clue.
I'm writing that off as not looking in the right place
. I've even measured (and heard) differences in wires to the speaker.
Last edited:
Andrew Jones, of ELAC, designed an active speaker system. He chose to use an analogue crossover. Must have been a reason.
YouTube
Interesting speakers, judging by design choices it should be very good, analog active 3-way, tweeter concentrically mounted within midrange driver, yet according to the following review it seems it did not do so well in comparison to 2-way DSP driven Dynaudio Focus 200 XD:
SoundStage! Simplifi | SoundStageSimplifi.com - Elac Navis ARB-51 Active Loudspeakers
Dynaudio is significantly more expensive, what brings me back to my question that I guess I will have to answer for myself, are speakers such as Kii Three and D&D 8c compromised by chosen price point and selection of less expensive drivers, amps, etc. to stay in chosen segment? That could be conclusion drawn.
Or is the above review actually an indication that DSP does better job than analog? I know there is so much more in such a complex system as active speakers that impacts the sound, however my gut feel based on what I have heard so far is that commercial DSP active speakers have not yet reached top tier due to either the technology not being matured enough or simply due to the fact that industry does not feel there is a market for top performing DSP driven speakers that will have exceptional drivers, DA converters, amplifiers, and enough processing power for DSP.
Sasha,
The maybe simple reason that ScottL and Anfrew Jones apply analog active filters might be their age...(sorry if I am wrong
).Being of the older generation myself, for using DSP I'd have to master a threshold; on the other hand, analog circuits is what I understand and, more important, I know their possibilities and limitations.
So the choice to use analog active filters is obvious when I guess that I can reach my goals in designing and tuning loudspeakers with them.
You seem to be of the younger generation; when so, focusing on DSP therefore is obvious; it's just a different tool and using it well why would not you reach your goal?
The only advice I can give you is, instead of asking around and collecting loads of subjective opinions (which nonetheless are useful), to gather your own opinion by reading and, most of all, listening.
Using DSP is more complex than it seems to be; basic knowledge of audio reproduction, room acoustics and so on are requirements. In that situation your DSP is merely a tool.
Andrew Jones is older then me.
But, not by very much. Maybe 5 years.
Much seems to be lost here. No matter how many times I post. How can a device, filled with multiple op-amps, converting first from A-to-D, crossing frequencies in the digital domain (which, in and of itself, isn't really that bad), adjust gain settings through a digital processor, and then convert back to analogue somehow be better than a discreet circuit ?
By the way, when ever I have audio-related questions, I usually ask a those that are about 15 years older than me, what their experiences have been.
"When an old man dies, a library burns down".
But, not by very much. Maybe 5 years.
Much seems to be lost here. No matter how many times I post. How can a device, filled with multiple op-amps, converting first from A-to-D, crossing frequencies in the digital domain (which, in and of itself, isn't really that bad), adjust gain settings through a digital processor, and then convert back to analogue somehow be better than a discreet circuit ?
By the way, when ever I have audio-related questions, I usually ask a those that are about 15 years older than me, what their experiences have been.
"When an old man dies, a library burns down".
AD is required in case of analog sources, but not if you only use digital sources...
And then you anyhow need to convert to analog.
Another benefit is the flexibelity it brings, for example changing EQ, crossover, change speaker form factor, swapping drivers. Even if DSP would sound inferior, it would make sense to start with DSP and once the final filter is made move to passive components. Otherwise, you would need a very large private collection of filter components to do experiments...
You don't need band-aides if you do it right from the start. Watch the Andrew Jones video again. He mentions it, and he does so in a very polite manner.
Finally, what are you going to use for a volume control from digital out ?
A digital crossover is no bandaid. Furthermore, you can do digital volume control with very low loss in quality as long the bit depth of processing and DA is sufficient.
The Jones video didn't convince me too much. I understand from a marketing perspective the story.
Hereby a different perspective:
YouTube
@SashaV - that is weird, cause I have never heard a system being worse, just because they were digital. They could be poorly designed, but that's not the fault of digital potential - just bad design. There must be something really wrong with the method, if you can hear such a degradation of the sound. And it's a huge fallacy to throw all DSP's in the safe pit, just because you heard ONE bad combination
@Scott L
When I listen to the video of Elac..... It sounds like he do fanzy active loudspeakers... but from a marketing perspective.... it's better to build a loudspeaker, where people can change cables, dac, amplifers and so on..... cause that is what most people like.... to fiddle with their hobby. It's boring to buy something that just kinda work
And his second argument, was that they just build better drivers, istead of using standard drivers, that need to much "help" from a DSP. Fair point, but nothing really punchy to put down DSP's.... It's just Elac and their choice... they try to stand out... sell products
@Scott L
When I listen to the video of Elac..... It sounds like he do fanzy active loudspeakers... but from a marketing perspective.... it's better to build a loudspeaker, where people can change cables, dac, amplifers and so on..... cause that is what most people like.... to fiddle with their hobby. It's boring to buy something that just kinda work
And his second argument, was that they just build better drivers, istead of using standard drivers, that need to much "help" from a DSP. Fair point, but nothing really punchy to put down DSP's.... It's just Elac and their choice... they try to stand out... sell products
Again, that is the band-aide approach. I suppose that is okay if you have no other choice, but again, I say just get it right the first time.
I have seen literally hundreds of pictures of stereo set ups. 99% of them are set up by those who haven't got the slightest clue.
If someone can't do a set up in their living room for fear of breaking the wife's rules, then they would be better off just doing a home theater system and enjoy life without the sickness of being an audiophile. Use all the dsp known to mankind.
salute. Cheers !
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.