The thing that makes this kind of discussions less than useful is that we try to make a connection between just one parameter and 'everybody knows' kind of anecdotal stories.
While in reality there must be dozens of parameters that make two speakers differ.
Apart from the fact that in a good monitor, it is the recording that largely determines the perceived reproduction quality, so without using the exact same recording in each case, comparison is less than useless anyway. Same goes for the listening venue.
As Bruno used to say:
'The road to heaven: specify the performance, accept the design; the road to hell: specify the design, accept the performance'.
Once you specify a specific performance, in whatever way, there are many, many ways to design something that meets the performance. Back-tracking from the design to try to compare performances is nonsensical.
Jan
While in reality there must be dozens of parameters that make two speakers differ.
Apart from the fact that in a good monitor, it is the recording that largely determines the perceived reproduction quality, so without using the exact same recording in each case, comparison is less than useless anyway. Same goes for the listening venue.
As Bruno used to say:
'The road to heaven: specify the performance, accept the design; the road to hell: specify the design, accept the performance'.
Once you specify a specific performance, in whatever way, there are many, many ways to design something that meets the performance. Back-tracking from the design to try to compare performances is nonsensical.
Jan
You really should not worry so much about subjective opinons you read. You'll start believing things like 'silver cable sounds bright'. At the end of the day your room, your music, your ears and your wallet.
Please reference where people say the kii3 sounds 'washed out'. I have seen nothing but praise for them (including Jan, who nearly bought a pair). When sound on sound (who have no audiphool credentials* to worry about ) say "Few monitors have impressed us as much as Kii's cardioid-radiating Three speakers." does that sound like they thought it was 'washed out'?
*They may suffer from advertisers though
What else am I going to rely on if not opinions to sort out what I want to focus on? If someone tells me about silver wire sounding bright I will no longer pay attention to opinion of such person of course, but I cannot dismiss someone saying that Kii may sound washed out. It may measure very well and have great cardioid radiating pattern but not be transparent enough and thus could be characterized as washed out.
There are some comments on Audiogon about Kii suffering from such traits.
Kii are praised on Gearslutz but there are also some who prefer by a large margin ATC for example. I always gravitate to the sound of large ATC and PMC speakers, I cannot quantify what it is I love in their midranges, I just love them. And one of reasons I am considering PSI Audio A23-M is that they developed their own small dome midrange driver, so my thinking is that it should be very good, but then I read that they sound "cloudy" in comparison to ATC, so I have to ask myself why.
And BTW, here is an example of a reputable company loosing a lot in my eyes.
This is what Yamaha said, check for yourself:
Glossy black piano finish provides improved signal-to-noise performance
NS-5000 - Overview - Speaker Systems - Audio & Visual - Products - Yamaha - Other European Countries
This is what Yamaha said, check for yourself:
Glossy black piano finish provides improved signal-to-noise performance
NS-5000 - Overview - Speaker Systems - Audio & Visual - Products - Yamaha - Other European Countries
I personally would take any 'forum' subjective views with a sack of salt. And I I would never tell anyone who bought ATC they had made a bad decision. Now I personally love illusion of soundstaging and the big ATCs, beautiful though they were didn't work in the rooms I listened to them in and the sound stage height was an arc from each speaker to a peak in the middle. To this day I don't know why. The tiny (and short lived) SCM10 did a much better job, but came out after I had bought some other speakers.
My conclusion is that the bigger ATC need the right room. The D&D and Kii (and beolab dalek) try and take the room out the equation so are likely to work better in a non optimal room. But you get heft for your 15k+ with ATC. At this level of performance things are converging. JBL M2 and Geithain are also offering great speakers along with many more.
Competitive market sector with many solutions to fit your goals (and phase_accurates fetishes)
My conclusion is that the bigger ATC need the right room. The D&D and Kii (and beolab dalek) try and take the room out the equation so are likely to work better in a non optimal room. But you get heft for your 15k+ with ATC. At this level of performance things are converging. JBL M2 and Geithain are also offering great speakers along with many more.
Competitive market sector with many solutions to fit your goals (and phase_accurates fetishes)
Your own judgement? Surely you would not purchase a $ 15k speaker on someone else's opinion expressed on the web??
Why not? Does he have a gun to your head? In my opinion, knowing that 'washed-out' has no definition and is whatever anyone feels it is, I'd give such a statement no further attention.
If someone is serious and knowledgeable, they wont say 'washed out'. They would try to express it is terms that have some understood accepted meaning, like 'I thought the sound stage was narrow' or 'in my opinion, the bass was a bit weak'. Washed out? WTF??
Jan
I personally would take any 'forum' subjective views with a sack of salt. And I I would never tell anyone who bought ATC they had made a bad decision. Now I personally love illusion of soundstaging and the big ATCs, beautiful though they were didn't work in the rooms I listened to them in and the sound stage height was an arc from each speaker to a peak in the middle. To this day I don't know why. The tiny (and short lived) SCM10 did a much better job, but came out after I had bought some other speakers.
Your description of ATC sound is an example of subjective view I find useful, because this is exactly how I perceive soundstage of large ATCs, I do not care that much about sound stage but I can now draw some useful conclusions from your opinions on other aspects that matter to me, since you heard the same as I did and perceived it in the same way.
Absolutely, I will not commit to purchase till I hear them, but I want to sort out what I want to hear.
WRT washed out, I took it as an expression in line with loss of transparency, since my own experience with DSP in DEQX was loss of transparency, or in other words dull or washed out sound.
I am sorry but that statement cannot be interpreted any other way, signal-noise words cannot be used in the context of good looks, they simply lost all credibility in my view.
Exactly this. I'm wondering what would happen if you would EQ all of those speakers equal (let say to the one that subjectively sounds best to the listener). I'm pretty sure it will be very hard to keep them apart (within limits of their output capabilities and EQ's on a single sweet spot).
Be careful with confirmation bias! We people always tend to favour opinions that are close to our own, or confirm what we would like to be true.
4real - I'm not so sure. There are at least 2 issues you probably can't fix via EQ.
1) You can EQ on axis or off axis, but not both. So what do you EQ to make the speakers "equal"? On axis, or power response?
2) A big speaker in a small room can be a problem no matter what you do. The listener might be too close to the big speaker for good driver integration (I had this happen to me when I moved - my big speakers no longer sounded good despite no changes in the signal chain). No EQ will fix that...
1) You can EQ on axis or off axis, but not both. So what do you EQ to make the speakers "equal"? On axis, or power response?
2) A big speaker in a small room can be a problem no matter what you do. The listener might be too close to the big speaker for good driver integration (I had this happen to me when I moved - my big speakers no longer sounded good despite no changes in the signal chain). No EQ will fix that...
I never said that it would solve all issues. And of course you’ll need to consider some boundary parameters, some of which I already posted, you mentioned a few more.
The point is: analog va digital is by for not the only difference and definitely not the most noticeable one: that would be frequency response by a rather large margin I would expect.
The point is: analog va digital is by for not the only difference and definitely not the most noticeable one: that would be frequency response by a rather large margin I would expect.
SashaV, I had a chance to hear both ATC SMC50 and Kii Three at the same high end audio show in New York City several years ago. ATC was in the Prism room, Prism is one of the most popular digital converter brand among mastering engineers. ATC room was very popular and crowded.
ATC sounded absolutely horrible, and it seems a lot of people there confused about it including a poor representative of Prism. I read an article after the show, which was reporting the representative of Prism was struggling to place ATCs before the show.
When I was in Kii Three room, no one was there except a representative, and obviously this room was very unpopular among hi-fi crowd. I had no information about it, and I did not even know it has cardioid bass designed by Hypex guy. The speaker looked nothing fancy, but the sound was truly jaw dropping. It was probably the best sounding speaker at the show. The frequency balance and sound stage is very neutral, and hotel room was disappearing when closing my eyes. My impression was Kii Three is clearly better than Barefoot MM27 that I owned at that time. I could have probably nitpicked here and there at Kii Three, but it is an absolutely impressive speaker, for sure.
I have been a big fan of ATC, and I still wish to get a pair, but what I learned is, ATC can't always sound good, especially in the domestic room like a hotel room.
If you want something between ATC and Kii, I would recommend to check ME Geithain 901. It exactly sounds like between ATC and Kii due to analog cardioid bass system with an excellent midrange. I love the sound of Geithain.
They are all really good sounding speakers, and I would be more than happy with any of them.
ATC sounded absolutely horrible, and it seems a lot of people there confused about it including a poor representative of Prism. I read an article after the show, which was reporting the representative of Prism was struggling to place ATCs before the show.
When I was in Kii Three room, no one was there except a representative, and obviously this room was very unpopular among hi-fi crowd. I had no information about it, and I did not even know it has cardioid bass designed by Hypex guy. The speaker looked nothing fancy, but the sound was truly jaw dropping. It was probably the best sounding speaker at the show. The frequency balance and sound stage is very neutral, and hotel room was disappearing when closing my eyes. My impression was Kii Three is clearly better than Barefoot MM27 that I owned at that time. I could have probably nitpicked here and there at Kii Three, but it is an absolutely impressive speaker, for sure.
I have been a big fan of ATC, and I still wish to get a pair, but what I learned is, ATC can't always sound good, especially in the domestic room like a hotel room.
If you want something between ATC and Kii, I would recommend to check ME Geithain 901. It exactly sounds like between ATC and Kii due to analog cardioid bass system with an excellent midrange. I love the sound of Geithain.
They are all really good sounding speakers, and I would be more than happy with any of them.
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That is exactly the point to understand, when it comes to the difference between 1D and 3D.
A DSP works in 1 dimension - it can only change a signal linear.
As soon as the sound leaves the driver, reflects from corners, surfaces and any other objects - it becomes 3 dimensions and complex. No DSP can do anything about that. A 1 dimensional problems can be solved with a 1 dimensional tool - like EQ in a DSP.
3 dimensional problems need to be fixed with 3 dimensional tools - like a 3D structure - front baffle, waveguide, horn etc.
So it's a nature law - when you EQ for one spot in front of a speaker - you change something else - somewhere else too.
Relatively big speakers can play fine in smaller rooms. It all depends on the design. If a small speaker has a wacky dispersion and uses a horn or waveguide poorly..... then it will also sound worse, when sitting to close to it - and/or placing it cramped up in a corner cause there's to little room for proper placement.
There are many factors.
20 years ago - it might be tricky to do active speakers, rather than building a finished proven passive design.
But today ,with all the easy available technology for way less, than what you paid for a really good integrated amplifier 20 year ago - then active is a breeze.
I remember paying 2000$ for a used NAD S300 - then the same for a new NAD S500I, 800$ for cables and a set of Dali Evidence 870 for around 2000$..... yikes.
Well.... I actually liked it and it played ok.... but....
Today a pair of easy build boxes with proven design, good drivers and a set of Fusion amps... and you build a complete system, way better sounding and with tons of possibilities - for way less. So indeed times has changed
Great place.... this is where my active adventure started
Ground Sound
So much has happened since..... damn... time runs fast
yes... but tweeking in a DSP, is a whole lot easier than fiddling with a ton of components to do the same. And when you first heard the difference that small imbalances in the frequency response can make. Then you want it to better - more even and accurate. So still active for the win - for me
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