Hi all, just a quick question regarding crowd coverage sizes for these cabinets, I'm just starting to build the second pair to go with my system after we where blown away with the performance of the first 2 compared to some older hogs we ran them with a little while ago. They will be loaded with B&C tbw100 4's powered by a matrix xt7000mf per pair, with 4 hd15's on top and topped off with a pair syntripps with extension horns sat up high, possibly on riser boxes. The system will be ran in 2 stacks of 2 keystones, 2 hd15's, 1 syntripp per side. Just been asked what the viability would be for a small festival with a crowd of between 400-800, believe its outdoors rather than indoors but I could be wrong, still waiting for confirmation but do you think this setup would be upto the task?
Watafu,
The task being an EDM, hip-hop, pop band or acoustic music festival all bring different expectations.
Outdoors, four B&C 18TBW100-4 loaded Keystones should easily hit around 118dB at 10 meters, 98dB at 100 meters. Enough bottom for most expectations.
Don't know what "hd15" you are using, or what frequency you are crossing the SynTripP cabinets, but a single 3" diaphragm per side for HF may be the weak link depending on what the program material and stage volume is.
Art
Thanks for the reply Weltersys, its a bit of a theoretical right now so just trying to figure out whats managable. In terms of the music, from the sounds of it, it will be outside and a real mixture of everything so its certainly a test of whats possible with the setup! Without knowing the exact setup in terms of space, it makes life slightly harder but with this being way off in the sunny days of summer, I should have plenty of time to prepare. Depending on how wide the stage is, would either run them in twin stacks or possibly set the subwoofers up as an array spacing them in singles with a hd15 on top of each, crossing at 100hz to the hd15's which are loaded with eminence 15" kappa lf's. It being outdoors would probably look at adding some horn extentions that you posted about in another thread to try and improve the response and directivity.
I imagine I would be running the hd15's from 80-160hz and cross the syntripps at 120-140hz to try and keep the driver excursion down (I'm still learning about this side of things so assuming sacrificing the low end kick would lower the load on the 10" drivers). I couldn't afford fancy new lightweight drivers when I first built my tops so ended up loading them with some jbl 2447's with a 4" diaphragm so hopefully they will just about be able to keep up!! Out of interest, as I'm still looking at building the horn extentions for the tops, what would be the end result of say making them a chunk larger than specified? Would that increase the overall spl a little bit more across the entire range of the tops or would it be negligable and better to stick to the recommended size?
Also given our extremely strict noise regulations in the UK, I somehow doubt we would be allowed to play that loud, its not uncommon to be able to have a casual chat in front of some massive systems at major festivals over here!
Thanks for your help!
I imagine I would be running the hd15's from 80-160hz and cross the syntripps at 120-140hz to try and keep the driver excursion down (I'm still learning about this side of things so assuming sacrificing the low end kick would lower the load on the 10" drivers). I couldn't afford fancy new lightweight drivers when I first built my tops so ended up loading them with some jbl 2447's with a 4" diaphragm so hopefully they will just about be able to keep up!! Out of interest, as I'm still looking at building the horn extentions for the tops, what would be the end result of say making them a chunk larger than specified? Would that increase the overall spl a little bit more across the entire range of the tops or would it be negligable and better to stick to the recommended size?
Also given our extremely strict noise regulations in the UK, I somehow doubt we would be allowed to play that loud, its not uncommon to be able to have a casual chat in front of some massive systems at major festivals over here!
Thanks for your help!
You will want the low mid cabinets well above head height running that high, preferably within 1/4 wave length from the top cabinets.
With the 4" 2447 HF driver the SynTripP's BC 10CL51 will probably be the weak link. At 40volts, excursion is around 6mm at 107 Hz, drops to 4mm at 140Hz, 3mm at 165 Hz.
The secondary horn is good for about +3dB over most of the range of the SynTripP, probably need to double it's area to get much more, though pattern control would be extended to a lower frequency.
Last edited:
Thats a very good point actually, I didnt even think about having to raise them up aswell....could make things slightly tricky in terms of rigging it all up. So the 1/4 wavelength is in regard to the crossover point between the low mids and the syntripps, so assuming it was say, 140hz, then I would need to place the middle point of the hd15 horn 612mm from the centre point of the syntripp horn in order to keep things sounding smoothly. Would this also maintain pattern control or is this something thats only related to the shape of the horn of the syntripp? It sounds like the 10CL51's will definitely be the weaker part of the system given their 5.5mm xmax. Think I'll definitely take a good look at my processor settings and adjust them accordingly.
I'll definitely make the secondary horn and probably marginally bigger just to see what happens. With the standard sized extension, at what frequency does it it lose its pattern control and in relation to how it sounds, how does this effect the overall sound from the audiences point of view? I'm still trying to learn this side of things, if you have any helpful links/papers I would be massively thankful!
Polar response of arrays with different elements is beyond the scope of what I'd care to write about- even if I knew what "hd15" design you were using, and knew it's polar and phase response.
The spec sheet I have says 6mm xmax and Xvar, but crossing over above 140Hz, it's little 2" 150 watt voice coil will be fading away before excursion is a problem. The SynTripP simply was not designed to keep up with as much low end as you are planning to use.
Pattern control affects what the microphones on stage "hear" as well as what the audience hears depending on where each is in the pattern. The effect is SPL varies with frequency depending on the off-axis angle.
The SynTripP polar response can be seen in the first post:
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...part-virtual-single-point-source-horn.264485/
The SynAudCon library is full of articles that will be useful to you:
https://www.prosoundtraining.com/category/synaudcon-library/
https://www.prosoundtraining.com/2010/05/24/understanding-horn-directivity-control/
Art
do you know the volume of the trx 3118 cabinet. and the depth of the ports?
Regarding horn extensions for Keystones, can anyone confirm if this would be the most efficient (db/plywood) configuration for two Keystones? As I understand it, separating the Keystones and using individual extensions for each cabinet would provide even volume across a wider space, but at the cost of ~3db from coupling the two.
Assuming the same frontal area, there will be little difference in the on axis response efficiency of either individual extensions or coupling the cabinets in the center of extensions.
The larger center to center distance using individual extensions would narrow the upper frequency coverage pattern due to off axis comb-filtering, which could be useful or not, depending on the coverage desired.
Bennett Prescott's article will give you an introduction to the concepts:
https://soundforums.net/articles/measurement-and-optimization/run-and-gun-subwoofer-arraying-190497/
You could use Danley Direct to get an idea of what specific spacing does to the response:
https://www.danleysoundlabs.com/new-danley-direct-free-modeling-software/
Using the DSL TH-18 as a substitute for the Keystone, or the BC412 for it's similar extended mouth dimensions to what you sketched would be some models that should be similar in polar response.
Art
The larger center to center distance using individual extensions would narrow the upper frequency coverage pattern due to off axis comb-filtering, which could be useful or not, depending on the coverage desired.
Bennett Prescott's article will give you an introduction to the concepts:
https://soundforums.net/articles/measurement-and-optimization/run-and-gun-subwoofer-arraying-190497/
You could use Danley Direct to get an idea of what specific spacing does to the response:
https://www.danleysoundlabs.com/new-danley-direct-free-modeling-software/
Using the DSL TH-18 as a substitute for the Keystone, or the BC412 for it's similar extended mouth dimensions to what you sketched would be some models that should be similar in polar response.
Art
If and when I could get a plate amp to mount to the cabinet, where would the best place be to mount it? I'm thinking that adding an amp would block enough air flow to cause major changes in performance. the only place with enough space would be high up in the back of the cabinet, or maybe on a side of the front area. probably a dumb thought, but a few guys have asked me about adding an amp, so I thought I would ask the experts.
I was looking at these also:
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/2-x-3000W-Subwoofer-Amplifier-Module_1600260573298.html
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/2-x-3000W-Subwoofer-Amplifier-Module_1600260573298.html
Those look very good, just that never heard of them , I can't tell the reliability factor and or support.
Speaker power is expensive but they have very low MTBF rate.and they back you up
Sanway have nice support and can send you any repair board you need , also many people i know use the plate and rack mount clones from them. They clone existing proven designs.
CVR clones have also good track record
Sinbosen avoid like the plague, they fail under hot outside conditions and the quality control is low.
The one you show idk.
So with those is a coin toss.
It's up to you.
I only can comment on my own experience or people i know who tried the ones I commented.
Speaker power is expensive but they have very low MTBF rate.and they back you up
Sanway have nice support and can send you any repair board you need , also many people i know use the plate and rack mount clones from them. They clone existing proven designs.
CVR clones have also good track record
Sinbosen avoid like the plague, they fail under hot outside conditions and the quality control is low.
The one you show idk.
So with those is a coin toss.
It's up to you.
I only can comment on my own experience or people i know who tried the ones I commented.
I know he wanted plate amps but very High power get more expensive SP also have a 6kw plate amp but more than 1500 uds
This one are 750 shipped to your door
https://www.china-sanway.com/amp/DA...lass-D-Pa-Subwoofer-Amplifier-pd45493754.html
ITEM
DA24K2
8Ω Stereo Power(RMS)
2400W ×2
4Ω Stereo Power(RMS)
4100W ×2
2Ω Stereo Power(RMS)
6300W ×2
8Ω Bridged Power(RMS)
8200W
4Ω Bridged Power(RMS)
12600W
Frequency response
8Ω ，20Hz--20kHz ，1/8 rated power
±0.5dB
1KHz THD：
0.01-0.03%
Signal-to-Noise Ratio 8Ω, 1kHz ,1v Sensitivity
Input sensitivity (rated power 8Ω)
0.775V/1V/32dB selectable
Cross- talk( 20Hz- 1kHz, below Rated Power )
Input Connectors (per channel)
3-pin XLR, electronically balanced
Output Connectors (per channel)
Neutrik speakON
Class
D
TourClass Protection
Under voltage, DC, Over temperature,
Over load limiter, short protection
Operating voltage
90V-260V
Input impedance
20kΩ（Balance），10kΩ（Unbalance）
Damp Factor
Dimensions(WXHXD) mm
480x330x44mm
Packing dimension (mm)
515x415x103mm
Net weight(kg)
8.7kg
Gross weight(kg)
10.5kg
This one are 750 shipped to your door
https://www.china-sanway.com/amp/DA...lass-D-Pa-Subwoofer-Amplifier-pd45493754.html
ITEM
DA24K2
8Ω Stereo Power(RMS)
2400W ×2
4Ω Stereo Power(RMS)
4100W ×2
2Ω Stereo Power(RMS)
6300W ×2
8Ω Bridged Power(RMS)
8200W
4Ω Bridged Power(RMS)
12600W
Frequency response
8Ω ，20Hz--20kHz ，1/8 rated power
±0.5dB
1KHz THD：
0.01-0.03%
Signal-to-Noise Ratio 8Ω, 1kHz ,1v Sensitivity
Input sensitivity (rated power 8Ω)
0.775V/1V/32dB selectable
Cross- talk( 20Hz- 1kHz, below Rated Power )
Input Connectors (per channel)
3-pin XLR, electronically balanced
Output Connectors (per channel)
Neutrik speakON
Class
D
TourClass Protection
Under voltage, DC, Over temperature,
Over load limiter, short protection
Operating voltage
90V-260V
Input impedance
20kΩ（Balance），10kΩ（Unbalance）
Damp Factor
Dimensions(WXHXD) mm
480x330x44mm
Packing dimension (mm)
515x415x103mm
Net weight(kg)
8.7kg
Gross weight(kg)
10.5kg