Indoor bar gig with a modern country band( think Eric Church and Miranda Lambert). The bar was 50 deep by 70 wide. Ceilings were so low my tops were actually into the false ceiling tiles by about an inch. Tops used were JBL MRX 525. And on the keystones I had crown XTI 4002 one per box. One top and one bottom per side. If I had to describe the sound it was very clean in comparison to what I had. Also it seems they are very directional not a lot of bass on stage.
Fired up my Keystone "Lite" (LAB15-4) for the first time last night. I am very impressed by the limited testing I did. Much deeper and cleaner than the MTL1s I ran in the past. I ran the usual music I know well, ACDC, VH, Megadeth, Social D and each brought a smile to my face. Even dragged the 14YO daughter out and she ran some Skrillex Dub Step and she gave it a 2 thumbs up. The very low frequency reproduction was obvious and strong. Quite less scientific testing than most of the posts here but was compelled to post something... Plan to use it and open it up a bit for a bit of trick or treating tonight if the weather permits. Thanks for sharing your design Art and to the many others answering my questions along the way!
Tocatta and Fugue in D Minor?
What we need is a podcast, so everyone on the planet can fire their horn subs up simultaneously. Now THAT would be creepy....
Tocatta and Fugue in D Minor?
What we need is a podcast, so everyone on the planet can fire their horn subs up simultaneously. Now THAT would be creepy....
Of course! I would be afraid that resulting simultaneous podcast effect with all the firepower folks have here and all of us scattered all over the world would disrupt the earth's electromagnetic field.
In the spirit of Halloween, any self respecting low end aficionado must have some Midnight Syndicate material in their arsenal. It's all instrumental, creepy, synth patch, effect laden stuff filled to the brim with ultra low end content. Very much looking forward to hearing it on the new toy as this was one of the main reasons I opted to go KS. -3db on the sim with the LAB15-4 is like 32hz. Might not have the same output as the recommended B&C but it goes lower (but not much
).Attachments
I can post some thoughts about my build if anyone is interested but the bottom line is that it really is a straightforward build and I really regret putting it off as long as I did.
A bit OT, can someone point in the direction some tops for the KS. Been using some old Community wedges and it's time to upgrade. I am COMPLETELY lost in the other forums. Many thanks in advance!
A bit OT, can someone point in the direction some tops for the KS. Been using some old Community wedges and it's time to upgrade. I am COMPLETELY lost in the other forums. Many thanks in advance!
That would be really cool, both the part with top cabs and a review on your cabs! Especially regarding EDM/techno/trance.
There have been two measurements falling of quite a bit over the f3 point claimed in the last pages, not bashing the design as it could have been many reason for it but for EDM solid 35 hz would be mandatory... Hope it could deliver it!
link? the tbw100 loaded cab appears to have a 36hz f3 witha bump in output around 43hz.... id say thats spot on.
You can get partially up to speed on my current project here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/262838-synergy-tripp-10-a.html
I have completed one of a pair of the SynTripP cabinets, and will be updating the final plans after today's tests are complete.
The SynTripP would be my "top" choice to go with the Keystone, but it is around an order of magnitude more challenging to construct. Today marks a full month since I started completion of the design, which had been going through various changes in rough sketch form for the last several years.
Art
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Sine is spot on. Last few posted measurements were cabs not loaded with Art's recommended driver. Mine either. I will posts some build thoughts later.
Trick or treating was horrible: raining/sleet and cold. I called it early and only got a moment to light the KS up a bit. Led Zep No Quarter. Pedal bass notes were well reproduced and no strain. Someday I hope to test but lots to learn and my driver was not recommended nor is it readily available.
Art, I saw your Synergy Tripp thread and read parts of it but it’s like in another language to me. I would probably be happy with the old cab design but if this thing turns out like the KS did I think you will have real winner.
Trick or treating was horrible: raining/sleet and cold. I called it early and only got a moment to light the KS up a bit. Led Zep No Quarter. Pedal bass notes were well reproduced and no strain. Someday I hope to test but lots to learn and my driver was not recommended nor is it readily available.
Art, I saw your Synergy Tripp thread and read parts of it but it’s like in another language to me. I would probably be happy with the old cab design but if this thing turns out like the KS did I think you will have real winner.
Keystone Sub Using 18,15,&12 Inch Speakers
I had a listening session last night:
- my pair of TBW100 loaded Keystones (internal width of 24") powered by an iTech 6000
- pair of JBL SRX728S, each powered by a bridged Crown CTS3000. The JBL is a good box to compare to, almost everybody has heard one at some point.
- source material was rock, pop, metal, hip hop. More notable some Dubstep/Trap (Must Die!, Rudebrat, Skrillex, etc) and some Drum and Bass as well.
- room is a 1200 seat theatre, tied into the house JBL rig for tops.
Absolutely pleased with the keystones, there was easily 6dB more output compared to the JBLs and the TBW100s were just begging for more power. The magnets did start to warm up during some of the dubstep tracks, but that is to be expected with sustained energy in the low 30 range, no audible signs of stress running the amp into solid clipping.
What was particularly fun was Coal Chamber's song Rowboat, the kick drum and down tuned bass guitar sound huge!
I intend to build more, and purchase bigger amps. Currently it's a toss up between iTECH 8000s or 5000VZs. Those B&C drivers are capable of soaking up a lot of power.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I had a listening session last night:
- my pair of TBW100 loaded Keystones (internal width of 24") powered by an iTech 6000
- pair of JBL SRX728S, each powered by a bridged Crown CTS3000. The JBL is a good box to compare to, almost everybody has heard one at some point.
- source material was rock, pop, metal, hip hop. More notable some Dubstep/Trap (Must Die!, Rudebrat, Skrillex, etc) and some Drum and Bass as well.
- room is a 1200 seat theatre, tied into the house JBL rig for tops.
Absolutely pleased with the keystones, there was easily 6dB more output compared to the JBLs and the TBW100s were just begging for more power. The magnets did start to warm up during some of the dubstep tracks, but that is to be expected with sustained energy in the low 30 range, no audible signs of stress running the amp into solid clipping.
What was particularly fun was Coal Chamber's song Rowboat, the kick drum and down tuned bass guitar sound huge!
I intend to build more, and purchase bigger amps. Currently it's a toss up between iTECH 8000s or 5000VZs. Those B&C drivers are capable of soaking up a lot of power.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Having just completed my first TH build I might be able to offer some insight to Sam and others interested. If you have some wooddorking experience the KS really is a straightforward build. I cannot believe I put it off so long. I completed my build in less than a week with a long day Sunday and a few hours after work each night. This included building a panel cutting jig, circle jig for the router, and rounding over/first coat of paint/etc.
Some thoughts in no real particular order...
Have the lumberyard rip 2 sheets at 25.25" inches. Rip panels to exact at home. Much easier to transport and handle at home.
Use Art's sketch and cutsheet: it is much more accurate than it first appears. There is plenty of room to cut things oversized at 90deg and tweak angles later.
I used PL glue and a nail gun but Art recommends screws and wood glue. Another member gave me the idea that using screws, you can mark one side up, clamp the other side together, and drill BOTH. This is ingenious, as you need to know the location of the interior to fasten the 2nd side. I built the horn first and used it to trace the fastener locations. Will probably use screws next time but need a decent countersink...
Assemble the horn first including it's interior braces. You could actually use 90deg cuts on the horn with liberal amounts of glue or caulking but I opted to get accurate. I spent most of my time dialing the horn in and the critical cut is the small section of the horn (horn a). Cuts are 3 and 5 deg left and right respectively to Art's sketch. Also, this part (horn a) is parallelogram shaped (/ /) and not trapezoidal (/ \) as I first thought. Plenty of material left to redo this part if need be (DAMHIKT). I recall folks saying 1/4” build variance is OK, but I wanted the horn dead nuts.
I used clamps throughout the build. (2) 48” pipe clamps and (2) 36” bar clamps along with a corner clamp. Pony 3 in. Corner Clamp-9166-K at The Home Depot The corner clamp was just a helper to allow me to clamp the panel with other clamps. I think that corner tool is essential if you are a one man band like me. To clamp the horn to the cabinet side I used a straight piece of oak and some scrap. Place the scrap over the horn, the straight piece over the scrap (extending from top and bottom of cab) and clamp the straight piece to the side (bottom). Use the straight piece with width vertically (on edge) as it bows a bit, this forces the horn tight to the side. Fasten.
The build would go really fast if there were no braces, but they are essential. You will realize this after it's built. I could be off base here, but I think there are no “exact” locations of the braces. I mounted the dual braces 8” from each side and worked that well for me. Hold the piece in place and loft/scribe. Cut with chop saw. Most were 2/3deg at most. I would say the most tedious aspect of the braces is marking and lining things up for fastening unless you mark them before assembly. Also, the way I built it, a few braces were glued both sides but only with fastener on one side.
No matter how accurate you cut things (and I did pretty good) there will be things off when you are ready to join the final side panel. I used a grinder equipped with a 36 grit disk to level a few areas with the aid of a metal yardstick as a straightedge to verify from cabinet sides. I would also see a belt sander or even hand sanding working here. I think it worth the effort to tweak so the final side glue up is extremely good since it is “blind”. Clamping technique for the final side was same as horn with some bar clamps along edges during fastening.
Before adding the final side panel, sand, vac, and caulk interior joints. I had PL left over from the build so I would say 1 tube easily does 1 cab. I wore a vinyl glove and applied glue to my hand and ran it down the joint as it is a bit hard to get the gun where you want it. Also prior to mounting side panel run your wire and install jacks. Some mount driver but I was chicken.
I used ¼ round bit over on the open end of horn bottom and the keystone exit. 1/2” round over on the cabinet. I used the grinder and sanding disk over protruding edges and a good overall 150 grit RO sanding prior to rounding the cabinet over but I recall many use a flush trim bit. I was quite surprised how much rounding the sides over made this cabinet pro looking.
Although I plan to use duratex I applied a black latex first coat via a roller. Dare I say this, but that coat was enough cover for a gig. The duratex will be for longevity and a more pro look. My thought was that the first coat would eliminate the need for 2 coats of duratex.
Need to doe some final touches, duratex, cover keystone exit, recess the jack panel and work out some handles. I will probably use 1 handle on top and bottom. A little freaked out about this changing tuning and whatnot, but even with a hand truck, I think some handles are necessary.
Hope this helps someone and if there is something obviously off please post. Would also love anyone's tricks on lining up speaker for mounting. I just measured and eyeballed speaker over baffle.
Some thoughts in no real particular order...
Have the lumberyard rip 2 sheets at 25.25" inches. Rip panels to exact at home. Much easier to transport and handle at home.
Use Art's sketch and cutsheet: it is much more accurate than it first appears. There is plenty of room to cut things oversized at 90deg and tweak angles later.
I used PL glue and a nail gun but Art recommends screws and wood glue. Another member gave me the idea that using screws, you can mark one side up, clamp the other side together, and drill BOTH. This is ingenious, as you need to know the location of the interior to fasten the 2nd side. I built the horn first and used it to trace the fastener locations. Will probably use screws next time but need a decent countersink...
Assemble the horn first including it's interior braces. You could actually use 90deg cuts on the horn with liberal amounts of glue or caulking but I opted to get accurate. I spent most of my time dialing the horn in and the critical cut is the small section of the horn (horn a). Cuts are 3 and 5 deg left and right respectively to Art's sketch. Also, this part (horn a) is parallelogram shaped (/ /) and not trapezoidal (/ \) as I first thought. Plenty of material left to redo this part if need be (DAMHIKT). I recall folks saying 1/4” build variance is OK, but I wanted the horn dead nuts.
I used clamps throughout the build. (2) 48” pipe clamps and (2) 36” bar clamps along with a corner clamp. Pony 3 in. Corner Clamp-9166-K at The Home Depot The corner clamp was just a helper to allow me to clamp the panel with other clamps. I think that corner tool is essential if you are a one man band like me. To clamp the horn to the cabinet side I used a straight piece of oak and some scrap. Place the scrap over the horn, the straight piece over the scrap (extending from top and bottom of cab) and clamp the straight piece to the side (bottom). Use the straight piece with width vertically (on edge) as it bows a bit, this forces the horn tight to the side. Fasten.
The build would go really fast if there were no braces, but they are essential. You will realize this after it's built. I could be off base here, but I think there are no “exact” locations of the braces. I mounted the dual braces 8” from each side and worked that well for me. Hold the piece in place and loft/scribe. Cut with chop saw. Most were 2/3deg at most. I would say the most tedious aspect of the braces is marking and lining things up for fastening unless you mark them before assembly. Also, the way I built it, a few braces were glued both sides but only with fastener on one side.
No matter how accurate you cut things (and I did pretty good) there will be things off when you are ready to join the final side panel. I used a grinder equipped with a 36 grit disk to level a few areas with the aid of a metal yardstick as a straightedge to verify from cabinet sides. I would also see a belt sander or even hand sanding working here. I think it worth the effort to tweak so the final side glue up is extremely good since it is “blind”. Clamping technique for the final side was same as horn with some bar clamps along edges during fastening.
Before adding the final side panel, sand, vac, and caulk interior joints. I had PL left over from the build so I would say 1 tube easily does 1 cab. I wore a vinyl glove and applied glue to my hand and ran it down the joint as it is a bit hard to get the gun where you want it. Also prior to mounting side panel run your wire and install jacks. Some mount driver but I was chicken.
I used ¼ round bit over on the open end of horn bottom and the keystone exit. 1/2” round over on the cabinet. I used the grinder and sanding disk over protruding edges and a good overall 150 grit RO sanding prior to rounding the cabinet over but I recall many use a flush trim bit. I was quite surprised how much rounding the sides over made this cabinet pro looking.
Although I plan to use duratex I applied a black latex first coat via a roller. Dare I say this, but that coat was enough cover for a gig. The duratex will be for longevity and a more pro look. My thought was that the first coat would eliminate the need for 2 coats of duratex.
Need to doe some final touches, duratex, cover keystone exit, recess the jack panel and work out some handles. I will probably use 1 handle on top and bottom. A little freaked out about this changing tuning and whatnot, but even with a hand truck, I think some handles are necessary.
Hope this helps someone and if there is something obviously off please post. Would also love anyone's tricks on lining up speaker for mounting. I just measured and eyeballed speaker over baffle.
Has anyone heard of Oberton drivers? They recommend them from Bluearan in UK as their new high power LF driver in enclosures... Would any of these two work good in the KS? I was comparing a few parameters and they do indeed look rather similar. Could be an interesting alternative to the B&C's. Here are the 3 most interesting candidates,
18NXB1600
18NXB1601
18XB1500
18NXB1600
18NXB1601
18XB1500
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