hi
i know theres alot been said regarding the jx92 and teds site transmission line enclosurer but im trying to find out where ive screwed up as i find the sound quality quite a dis-appointment.
firstly the jx92 i have are the earlier versions not the s models,i state that incase that has any bearing on my sound quality.
i built the enclosures as advised on the site,made from 18mm mdf complete with the foam behind the driver.
when i first played them i was impressed by the bass extension(i had been using them in 8litre sealed enclosures before that) but then the chinks began to show...for me this is ..one hell of a over hang,boom or resonance,a hollowness around the mid bass area,also find the bass abit lazy sounding which tends to slow the music down and lacks tight defenition.
other then those points the knock on effect is those effects cloud the glorious mid range that i know the jordans do so well!
anyone out there with in depth experience with this enclosure and would share there hornest views regarding the sound quality they go from theres,any solutions ,fixes or ideas where i screwed up?
another point i must make is i use 845se valve amps(20watts) could the speakers be showing up there limitions? (they sounded really good with the sealed 8litre enclosures) volume isnt a issue,i never go pass 10 oclock on the pre-amp,believe me,thats more then load enough in my room!
on another note my amps have 4 and 8 ohm taps,which one do you think it sould be set on for this driver!.
sorry for the long post,im just gutted that my hard work has ended in such dis-appoint for me,i cant imagine mjs new speakers and the essences sounding like this otherwiose they wouldnt be getting the good reviews!
if anyone has a alteritive enclosure that would suit this older driver and give me lovely tight deepish bass with that open mid range and treble...i would be very intrested!
heres hoping!
many thanks
smithie
i know theres alot been said regarding the jx92 and teds site transmission line enclosurer but im trying to find out where ive screwed up as i find the sound quality quite a dis-appointment.
firstly the jx92 i have are the earlier versions not the s models,i state that incase that has any bearing on my sound quality.
i built the enclosures as advised on the site,made from 18mm mdf complete with the foam behind the driver.
when i first played them i was impressed by the bass extension(i had been using them in 8litre sealed enclosures before that) but then the chinks began to show...for me this is ..one hell of a over hang,boom or resonance,a hollowness around the mid bass area,also find the bass abit lazy sounding which tends to slow the music down and lacks tight defenition.
other then those points the knock on effect is those effects cloud the glorious mid range that i know the jordans do so well!
anyone out there with in depth experience with this enclosure and would share there hornest views regarding the sound quality they go from theres,any solutions ,fixes or ideas where i screwed up?
another point i must make is i use 845se valve amps(20watts) could the speakers be showing up there limitions? (they sounded really good with the sealed 8litre enclosures) volume isnt a issue,i never go pass 10 oclock on the pre-amp,believe me,thats more then load enough in my room!
on another note my amps have 4 and 8 ohm taps,which one do you think it sould be set on for this driver!.
sorry for the long post,im just gutted that my hard work has ended in such dis-appoint for me,i cant imagine mjs new speakers and the essences sounding like this otherwiose they wouldnt be getting the good reviews!
if anyone has a alteritive enclosure that would suit this older driver and give me lovely tight deepish bass with that open mid range and treble...i would be very intrested!
heres hoping!
many thanks
smithie
I'd experiment with stuffing (polyester, wool, Acoustistuf, etc).
(BTW I assume you mean the VTL labyrinthine enclosure?)
Traditional TLs use a lot of stuffing to damp resonant modes. The VTL supposedly doesn't require stuffing, but given the sound quality you are describing, it may very well do the trick. I'd try stuffing the top chamber first, then if that doesn't do the trick, start stuffing down into the labyrinth.
(BTW I assume you mean the VTL labyrinthine enclosure?)
Traditional TLs use a lot of stuffing to damp resonant modes. The VTL supposedly doesn't require stuffing, but given the sound quality you are describing, it may very well do the trick. I'd try stuffing the top chamber first, then if that doesn't do the trick, start stuffing down into the labyrinth.
hi
thanks for that tip,im just about to give it a go,ill let you know how it pans out!
all the best
smithie
thanks for that tip,im just about to give it a go,ill let you know how it pans out!
all the best
smithie
I found stuffing the vent with just enough pollyfill,but no more will do the trick. Also I turned the speakers enough inwards that the drivers cross in front of your seating position.
Joe
Joe
It might be a lack of stuffing in the line, but you are also driving the loudspeaker from an amplifier with significant output resistance (which will cause bass boom). Perhaps you could try another amplifier to pin the problem down to the amplifier or the loudspeaker.
hi guys
thanks for all the input i am experiment now with stuffing,ive put some behind the driver and this has helped alittle,will play with the vent stuffing as well,i over did it at first and altough the booming or what ever it is was reduced so was the life to the sound...i can see this could take a while for fine tuning...the joys of diy!
hopefully i will be able to get my hands on sone a solid state power amp so i can check out to see if my amps are causing the situation( i hope not or im stuffed,if you can forgive the pun!)
thanks for all your input,advice.
on another note,do you guys think i would get a good increase in sound quality by building new enclosures out of ply instead of mdf,or do you feel it wouldnt be worth the effort?
all the best
smithie
thanks for all the input i am experiment now with stuffing,ive put some behind the driver and this has helped alittle,will play with the vent stuffing as well,i over did it at first and altough the booming or what ever it is was reduced so was the life to the sound...i can see this could take a while for fine tuning...the joys of diy!
hopefully i will be able to get my hands on sone a solid state power amp so i can check out to see if my amps are causing the situation( i hope not or im stuffed,if you can forgive the pun!)
thanks for all your input,advice.
on another note,do you guys think i would get a good increase in sound quality by building new enclosures out of ply instead of mdf,or do you feel it wouldnt be worth the effort?
all the best
smithie
I have heard the JX92 (older version) with SS amps (50W) and they sonuded decent to good (depending on the program material) in 8 liter sealed boxes. The sub was not built yet so we did notice the lack of bass.
from what we heard we felt that the JX92 seems to prefer solo piano and voice and stuff like that to a whole orcehstra or a rock group. i hope to listen to the speaker with the sub one day.
1. try an SS amp maybe it is the 845 amp's coupling to the JX92
2. as others suggested try damping - it should reduce but in most cases will not eliminate the resonance.
3. void free marine grade ply is as good if not better than MDF.
I have used both and even used a sandwich (Ply-mdf-ply-mdf-ply-resin bonded fiberglass-lead sheet) and and find that void free ply (most marine grade ply is void free) is just as good and easier to work with than MDF. MDF creats a lot of dust and does not bend (for curved sides) as easily as ply.
from what we heard we felt that the JX92 seems to prefer solo piano and voice and stuff like that to a whole orcehstra or a rock group. i hope to listen to the speaker with the sub one day.
1. try an SS amp maybe it is the 845 amp's coupling to the JX92
2. as others suggested try damping - it should reduce but in most cases will not eliminate the resonance.
3. void free marine grade ply is as good if not better than MDF.
I have used both and even used a sandwich (Ply-mdf-ply-mdf-ply-resin bonded fiberglass-lead sheet) and and find that void free ply (most marine grade ply is void free) is just as good and easier to work with than MDF. MDF creats a lot of dust and does not bend (for curved sides) as easily as ply.
Hi smithie
I also tried the Jordan JX92S Driver because when I heard it for the first time, I was impressed how a small speaker like this can sound. It was build in a small closed box, with less than 10l Volume, filled with damping wool.
This nice speaker (build by Hauke Langhein) was driven by good tube amplification. So good so far. I bought a pair JX92S.
Because I wanted to have more bass, I tried the J-Low Horm Design from N.P. But I cannot recommend this design.
It is not the perfect cabinet for the Jordan driver.
My mockup was discussed by some visitors which are true 'horn experts' and they say it is something like an open baffle with a minor horn-effect, to say the best of it 😉
Maybe this is true. It was my fault not to think it over before it was built.
Anyway - no Problem! I tried another very small vintage coaxial driver made by Philips with a harder suspension and stronger magnet in this horn - and this was far better.
Back to the Jordan Driver: I discussed it with Markus Boldyreff who is a experienced developper for Opera Audio. He did a lot of research with the JX's and told me he has got the best results with Transmissionline.
Later I smashed the big horn-cabinet (nobody liked it) sold my Jordan chassis, because they lack on fine definition when complex music material is played and the sound tends to be hard and artificial (IMHO - this is a matter of taste)
My personal conclusion: I think it is the easiest approach to use a simple closed box for the JX. Other construction-principles like e.g. bass reflex, TML, or horn would need a lot of experimenting an tuning - this may be too much effort...
Best regards, Jo
I also tried the Jordan JX92S Driver because when I heard it for the first time, I was impressed how a small speaker like this can sound. It was build in a small closed box, with less than 10l Volume, filled with damping wool.
This nice speaker (build by Hauke Langhein) was driven by good tube amplification. So good so far. I bought a pair JX92S.
Because I wanted to have more bass, I tried the J-Low Horm Design from N.P. But I cannot recommend this design.
It is not the perfect cabinet for the Jordan driver.
My mockup was discussed by some visitors which are true 'horn experts' and they say it is something like an open baffle with a minor horn-effect, to say the best of it 😉
Maybe this is true. It was my fault not to think it over before it was built.
Anyway - no Problem! I tried another very small vintage coaxial driver made by Philips with a harder suspension and stronger magnet in this horn - and this was far better.
Back to the Jordan Driver: I discussed it with Markus Boldyreff who is a experienced developper for Opera Audio. He did a lot of research with the JX's and told me he has got the best results with Transmissionline.
Later I smashed the big horn-cabinet (nobody liked it) sold my Jordan chassis, because they lack on fine definition when complex music material is played and the sound tends to be hard and artificial (IMHO - this is a matter of taste)
My personal conclusion: I think it is the easiest approach to use a simple closed box for the JX. Other construction-principles like e.g. bass reflex, TML, or horn would need a lot of experimenting an tuning - this may be too much effort...
Best regards, Jo
Smithie,
I knocked up one of the VTL enclosures from the design on ejjordan site and was disappointed. Far more woolly than the TQWT I had built previously.
If your room is fairly small and rectangular, there is probably some room resonance at the same frequency as the cabinet resonance, which does not help.
I shall probably build an 8litre cabinet to try in my 15ftx12ftx9ft room. It may be that less bass is preferable to woolly bass.
An amplifier with very high damping factor is desirable - do I mean necessary? - for resonant cabinets. However, the Jordans show up any unpleasant distortion from SS amps, so choose carefully!
Do you have baffle step compensation?
Andy
I knocked up one of the VTL enclosures from the design on ejjordan site and was disappointed. Far more woolly than the TQWT I had built previously.
If your room is fairly small and rectangular, there is probably some room resonance at the same frequency as the cabinet resonance, which does not help.
I shall probably build an 8litre cabinet to try in my 15ftx12ftx9ft room. It may be that less bass is preferable to woolly bass.
An amplifier with very high damping factor is desirable - do I mean necessary? - for resonant cabinets. However, the Jordans show up any unpleasant distortion from SS amps, so choose carefully!
Do you have baffle step compensation?
Andy
smithie said:
Opposite to EC8010's opinion. i won't build a FR speaker with MDF any more. For the modest increment in cost, i think good ply is much better and well worth it. But i wouldn't rebuild the tombstone style box. The one person i know who had them built was selling them within a month (at a big loss). So far it seems that the best box for the Jordans is small aperiodic (don't expect alot of bass) or the triangular column ML-TL designed by GM (the kind of box that illicits "that bass is coming out of that driver!!". I believe this design is also on Ted's site.
dave
hi all
thanks for all the insight and info,its just what i was looking for.
was going to try some solid state gear,then relised i was getting carried away,ive only just got to my dream of se845s so there aint no way im going to swap back to ss just because it improves the speakers ive built,it has to be the other way!
as its nearing xmas ive been lucky as my main room is in disary in readyness for xmas tree and decs,so i can move furniture about using that pretext which has given me the chance to try the tombs against the wall,out in the room,firing across and length ways and can report that the sound is from the speakers (damn).
ive read the good reports on the tirangle 48 mtl but alsa my driver is the older version and im open to correction but i dont think my driver will work well in that as its geared up for the latest version(damn again).
ive been playing with the stuffing(i think my wife is going to miss that pillow tonight!) approach and as pointed out by someone it helps but still doesnt eliminate the problem.
as someone else where also pointed out i would rather have less but good bass then loads of bad bass so ill stick with it over the weekend conducting my mad experiments and if im not happy after that then ill turn them into massive snow shoes or something as its snowing this end big time and go with plan B,C,D or however many plans it takes,it might be back to a tirangle wide baffle 8ltr closed box,and look at away of adding some bass at a later date,i have some jx150 that would do the job if i use some solid state modules on them,just wanted to keep it simpler then that!
has anyone lined speaker enclosures with lead sheeting? sure that will cure any vibes!
once again many thanks ive lernt alot in just these few posts,moreso as my mind was wandering to jx92 and horns and that one post put my mind at rest on that so many thanks there!
now only if there was a nice and high sensitivity drive with the magic and tone of the jx92 and covered as much range...i would almost be happy!
smithie
thanks for all the insight and info,its just what i was looking for.
was going to try some solid state gear,then relised i was getting carried away,ive only just got to my dream of se845s so there aint no way im going to swap back to ss just because it improves the speakers ive built,it has to be the other way!
as its nearing xmas ive been lucky as my main room is in disary in readyness for xmas tree and decs,so i can move furniture about using that pretext which has given me the chance to try the tombs against the wall,out in the room,firing across and length ways and can report that the sound is from the speakers (damn).
ive read the good reports on the tirangle 48 mtl but alsa my driver is the older version and im open to correction but i dont think my driver will work well in that as its geared up for the latest version(damn again).
ive been playing with the stuffing(i think my wife is going to miss that pillow tonight!) approach and as pointed out by someone it helps but still doesnt eliminate the problem.
as someone else where also pointed out i would rather have less but good bass then loads of bad bass so ill stick with it over the weekend conducting my mad experiments and if im not happy after that then ill turn them into massive snow shoes or something as its snowing this end big time and go with plan B,C,D or however many plans it takes,it might be back to a tirangle wide baffle 8ltr closed box,and look at away of adding some bass at a later date,i have some jx150 that would do the job if i use some solid state modules on them,just wanted to keep it simpler then that!
has anyone lined speaker enclosures with lead sheeting? sure that will cure any vibes!
once again many thanks ive lernt alot in just these few posts,moreso as my mind was wandering to jx92 and horns and that one post put my mind at rest on that so many thanks there!
now only if there was a nice and high sensitivity drive with the magic and tone of the jx92 and covered as much range...i would almost be happy!
smithie
Seems to me that small bookshelfs on stands might work better in your room.
Also, anything the mdf contributes to the sound is usually not good. I think mdf dulls and blurs the sound.
Overall seems like a really nice setup you have there once you nail the speakers! I would consider moving your stuff a little forward and placing a small powered sub in the center.
Peace,
Godzilla
Also, anything the mdf contributes to the sound is usually not good. I think mdf dulls and blurs the sound.
Overall seems like a really nice setup you have there once you nail the speakers! I would consider moving your stuff a little forward and placing a small powered sub in the center.
Peace,
Godzilla
smithie said:
The setup looks that you should be able to get good bass in that room. I would go for the triangle shaped enclosure like what Colin had shown for this room. After that, all you need to do is break up the room resonant (standing wave) modes and the setting would be good.
RAndyB said:
I heard the JX92 with some ordinary Stereo SS amp at a freind's place. it sounded nice but prefered simpler music. However the sound was good enough for me to think about using them in my HT/AV sysmtem (powered by a Marantz AT/AV reciever).
that install photo looks like the JX92 are too far in teh corner. try bringing them out 1-2 feet. it might be hte corner laoding of the bass that is making the boom.
ML-TLs are pretty tolerant... the box you have them in is for the JX92S so the triangle would be no different in that respect.
dave
dave
planet10 said:
I think the JX150 go up to around 5K and starts to roll off smoothly.
navin said:
All rull ranges are kind of limited with complex music, but also it depends on design as well. If you can get the phase response right, then You will hear further improvements.
If the response between 80 and 500 or so start getting too boomy, then maybe there is some way to solve it with compensation circuits as well if they still stay in the corners.
Pillows on top of them might make them sound a bit smoother where they are now.
hi guys
the reason i have them right in the corner is because...A...IT GIVES ME MAX SPACE IN THE ROOM,I HAVE A PAIR OF MAGGIES SMGAS,LOVE THOSE BUT CLOSE TO ROOM BOUNDRIES IS A NO NO.
B....I WAS STICKING TO TEDS DESIGN CONCEPT,THEROY ABOUT REFLECTIONS ETC.
as ive pointed out ive had these speakers all over the room and that resonance,colouration,boom is always present.
think i need to think of what my 845se valve amps main virtues are,a gorgous midband and sweet treble,there bass is ok but its not what you would call tight,tuneful with texture yes...tight...no way!
so do i go with a design thats going to show that up,also read that the jx92 drivers bass isnt renowned for being to tight,maybe these two facts together is my main problem?
would be temted to give the tirangle of gms ago but i would need to know that it performs so much better the the ted jordan vtl design abecause as it stands it needs to be that much better.
on another note,by pushing the jx to cover that sort of range am i losing some sound quality in the mids and treble...as i stated i really want to high light my amps vertues not its weakness!
so maybe a 8ltr tirangle wide baffle design might be my better plan(out of intrest does anyone know what sort of bass extension 8ltrs will give me?)
what puts me off about that approach is more real estate is needed,not to mention amps etc to build the bass units to supplerment that approach!
regarding jx with simple music,i totally agree and that suits me,im into folk,bluesbluegrass etc,i even find they do pink flyod,yello etc quite well,dont get me wrong i love rock etc just as much,but i havent heard a speaker yet that can help the way most of that stuff is recorded!(thats just my opion of course,believe me i would so love to hear a decent rendition of meatloafs bat out of hell...but that recording just sucks full stop!?
i will proberly get around to getting the latter spec 92s at some point as that extra 2db sensitivity would always be handy....there just a little to dear at the moment,i keep spending my money on wood,glue,screws and jigsaw blades...oh and plasters!
decisions,decisions
all the best
smithie
one more thing regarding the compensation circuilt,i dont really want to go that way as it eats to much sensitivity which i cant afford to lose with my set up
the reason i have them right in the corner is because...A...IT GIVES ME MAX SPACE IN THE ROOM,I HAVE A PAIR OF MAGGIES SMGAS,LOVE THOSE BUT CLOSE TO ROOM BOUNDRIES IS A NO NO.
B....I WAS STICKING TO TEDS DESIGN CONCEPT,THEROY ABOUT REFLECTIONS ETC.
as ive pointed out ive had these speakers all over the room and that resonance,colouration,boom is always present.
think i need to think of what my 845se valve amps main virtues are,a gorgous midband and sweet treble,there bass is ok but its not what you would call tight,tuneful with texture yes...tight...no way!
so do i go with a design thats going to show that up,also read that the jx92 drivers bass isnt renowned for being to tight,maybe these two facts together is my main problem?
would be temted to give the tirangle of gms ago but i would need to know that it performs so much better the the ted jordan vtl design abecause as it stands it needs to be that much better.
on another note,by pushing the jx to cover that sort of range am i losing some sound quality in the mids and treble...as i stated i really want to high light my amps vertues not its weakness!
so maybe a 8ltr tirangle wide baffle design might be my better plan(out of intrest does anyone know what sort of bass extension 8ltrs will give me?)
what puts me off about that approach is more real estate is needed,not to mention amps etc to build the bass units to supplerment that approach!
regarding jx with simple music,i totally agree and that suits me,im into folk,bluesbluegrass etc,i even find they do pink flyod,yello etc quite well,dont get me wrong i love rock etc just as much,but i havent heard a speaker yet that can help the way most of that stuff is recorded!(thats just my opion of course,believe me i would so love to hear a decent rendition of meatloafs bat out of hell...but that recording just sucks full stop!?
i will proberly get around to getting the latter spec 92s at some point as that extra 2db sensitivity would always be handy....there just a little to dear at the moment,i keep spending my money on wood,glue,screws and jigsaw blades...oh and plasters!
decisions,decisions
all the best
smithie
one more thing regarding the compensation circuilt,i dont really want to go that way as it eats to much sensitivity which i cant afford to lose with my set up
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