Re: Re: CSS WR125S vs Jordan JX92S
By the way Steven, any word on when the Extremis will be shipping? I have 7 on order for my HT, can't wait to get them. I note that the Extremis page has been updated with distortion measurements, too - looks really good. How about that 4" mini-me Extremis?
Steven Kephart said:
Hahahaha. That's the same reaction we always get. We literally have to unplug all the demo subs just to prove they aren't on.
Steven Kephart
Adire Audio
By the way Steven, any word on when the Extremis will be shipping? I have 7 on order for my HT, can't wait to get them. I note that the Extremis page has been updated with distortion measurements, too - looks really good. How about that 4" mini-me Extremis?
Re: Re: CSS WR125S vs Jordan JX92S
Yes, bass is good... for a 4" driver. It doesn't replace a 6.5" driver, in any way, however there are many significant design advantages from a 4" that thumps like that!
Steven Kephart said:
Hahahaha. That's the same reaction we always get. We literally have to unplug all the demo subs just to prove they aren't on.
Yes, bass is good... for a 4" driver. It doesn't replace a 6.5" driver, in any way, however there are many significant design advantages from a 4" that thumps like that!
Re: Re: Re: CSS WR125S vs Jordan JX92S
Unfortunately I don't know when they will ship. You could e-mail sales@adireaudio.com and ask them. They may be able to get you an answer.
BTW, we have a video of the Extremis 6 under full excursion. Here's a link if you are interested: http://www.adireaudio.com/Files/Extremis6.AVI
Steven Kephart
Adire Audio
sbolin said:
By the way Steven, any word on when the Extremis will be shipping? I have 7 on order for my HT, can't wait to get them. I note that the Extremis page has been updated with distortion measurements, too - looks really good. How about that 4" mini-me Extremis?
Unfortunately I don't know when they will ship. You could e-mail sales@adireaudio.com and ask them. They may be able to get you an answer.
BTW, we have a video of the Extremis 6 under full excursion. Here's a link if you are interested: http://www.adireaudio.com/Files/Extremis6.AVI
Steven Kephart
Adire Audio
I had heard the two previous prototypes and yesterday heard the current model at Adire. The box it was in looked less than 7 liter though I didn't break out my tape measure. I'm getting a pair next weekend if that tells you anything. Dan tipped all the subs in the room to prove none were connected. I may add a supertweeter 'cuz that's how I am. Highly recommended driver!
p.s. This thread should be in the Full Range section.
p.s. This thread should be in the Full Range section.
Well I backed off the 13l a little bit, looking at ~10 or so now, 15" x 12" x 6.5" external dimensions, 3/4" MDF. I've added a large amount of my own 'sandwich' damping materials to the walls, so as to take internal volume down even more. Hopefully this will bring them more in line with the ~7l Adire and CSS seem to recommend. Glad to hear you like Tim, let us know how your project with these goes. I'm hoping someone designs a TL with these soon, that would be the killer app for them IMO
Morbo,
I'd like to know if you could provide an update on your work with the WR125S driver. I'm personally considering using these for an HT setup . . . If you took your own measurements, would you please post them? I'd like to know how close to reality the CSS specs are. Also, I noticed that CSS doesn't have any power handling specs posted, would you have a sense of how much wattage these can handle when running full range? I'm wondering if you've decided to add a tweeter to the setup for a TM configuration or if you've decided to run them as an MTM setup. Also, what size enclosure/tuning did you end up with? Your input is greatly appreciated.
Andy
I'd like to know if you could provide an update on your work with the WR125S driver. I'm personally considering using these for an HT setup . . . If you took your own measurements, would you please post them? I'd like to know how close to reality the CSS specs are. Also, I noticed that CSS doesn't have any power handling specs posted, would you have a sense of how much wattage these can handle when running full range? I'm wondering if you've decided to add a tweeter to the setup for a TM configuration or if you've decided to run them as an MTM setup. Also, what size enclosure/tuning did you end up with? Your input is greatly appreciated.
Andy
ABS - you're right, an update is overdue. I have 3 of the drivers in house right now. I have cut wood and holes for all 3 speakers (2 nearfield 'monitors' and a centre channel), and all 3 speakers have been in use for about 1 week so far, the boxes and drivers taped together with masking tape for now while I decide how to finish them before final gluing. All of my impressions are based on this unfinished state, so keep that in mind.
To answer your specific questions:
1. I don't have my measurement gear yet so I can't post any measurements, sorry. I should be getting a behringer mic soon and can do some measurements then. I also can't verify the CSS specs for the same reason, however, if it puts your mind at ease at all, the technical paper about the WR125 on the CSS site is written by Dan Wiggins of Adire Audio, who is quite highly regarded and TTBoMK, has never been known to overembellish specs.
2. Power handling - the computer speaker pair are run full range. On all but the most bass-heavy material, their dynamic range seems unlimited in this setup. I can't say how many watts they will 'take', but I'm using a fairly beefy old Carver 60wpc reciever to drive them, and I can't get past 11 o'clock on most material before its too loud. Put it this way - I've played everything from large scale classical to Dr. Dre to drum & bass, and on every occasion, my ears have given out before the speakers showed any sign of strain. Keep in mind however, that this is sitting about 1 foot from the speakers. Still, on most material, even in normal listening positions, these things could fill a small room easily, especially if tuned a bit higher (or better yet, sealed). Which brings me to another point - see point 5 for more on tuning.
The other speaker is used as my centre channel. Same box, same tuning. Here the speaker is run out of my receiver (100wpc pioneer), with I beleive a 2nd order highpass at 100hz. In my small room, it is about 6' from my head. In this setting the speaker is amazing. I have watched several full movies at this point, from The Two Towers to The Hulk to The Big Lebowski (my personal fav. center channel dialogue test). In every case, dialogue has been better than I've ever heard it before. I have played at pretty good levels, although I'm not someone who listens extremely loud. Initially, I got worried at louder passages, but after playing some of those and watching the driver excursion, my concerns have faded. This is a paranoia particular to me; until I've fully learned the limitations of a new speaker, I am always worried I'll blow it. It is not specific to this speaker or driver at all.
3. I have not yet tried a tweeter. I probably will not add one to the center channel, but I will add one to the computer speakers. This is not because I miss the 'sparkle' at all, I find the current sound most satisfying. However, I use the computer speakers as monitors for mixing music, much of it in mp3 format from various sources. The single most common probelm with carelessy encoded mp3s is high frequency artifacts such as ringing or swishing - often around 16khz. I need to be able to hear these artifacts so I can easily weed out and reject those mp3s which have such problems. If the speakers were not being used in this critical application, I would not bother, the added expense plus the chance of ruining the coherency with a crossover are not worth it IMO. The tweeter I will most likely use is a 10mm Audax gold dome, available at madisound and Solen. I've also thought about using the VifaXT19 or one of the seas 3/4" tweeters. I will not use them in an MTM setup, though I'm sure it would sound great and reduce the reflections from the desk they sit on, its not in my budget. For the center channel, I would not use a horizontal mtm because of dispersion issues. Vertical MTMs would probably be quite appropriate though, and would help with SPL a great deal.
4. My boxes are 12" deep by 15" high/wide (depending on orientation) and 6.5" wide/high (ditto), with a single shelf brace. The port is the 1.5" flared one that CSS sells. This tunes the speaker to ~48-50hz. Port noise is not an issue at all. Internal volume is somewhere around 11-11.5L. All walls are damped with my own DIY material, a sandwich with a first layer of thick mousepads, a second layer of closed cell foam normally used to kill sound underneath that interlocking laminate flooring, and finally matress underpadding. All of these are 'glued' together with Mono 'Acoustical Sealant' caulk (nasty, nasty stuff). This deadens the cabinet very well, and also does a good job soaking up the backwave. The back wall behind the driver is covered in acoustic foam on top of said sandwich. Wherever possible, I used aysmettric placement & orientation of damping material.
I have some pictures of the construction process that I'll try and post later, seem to have misplaced my CF card right now.
My general impressions of the sound, in order of how much they jump out at you:
1. Dynamic
2. Undistorted
3. Precise Imaging
The computer speakers are just amazing, I don't think I've fully absorbed just how high the level of performance is in this role. It really puts my main system to shame in almost every way, probably because the speakers are never getting close to their limits.
The center channel speaker is great as well. I have fairly nice mains, ACI Spirit/Opals, and in the past for solo HT viewing, I would always use the phantom center mode on my receiver, since I was sitting in the sweet spot anyways. Now I don't think I will be doing that anymore. While the phantom center still provides a more seamless front soundstage, this speaker is so obviously of a higher resolution through the midbass and midrange than the ACIs, that I will take the hit in net coeherence to hear the extra detail in the center channel. Dialogue is an order of magnitude clearer than on my old TB871 center, and best of all, I'm not 'riding the remote' (adjusting volume) nearly as much to try and hear quiet without making action sequences unbearably loud. The remote stays at my side throughout the whole movie, which is a BIG plus in my books. The ACIs have a laid back character, whereas the center at times demands your attention. There will be something, like a female vocal, or a few string notes, that really grab you and make you focus in a way the ACIs rarely do. This is another big plus IMO, since the moments when this happens tend to be the big emotional or dramatic bits.
If you want to use these all-around for an HT, I would say you could end up with an extremly coherent system with incredible imaging and very low distortion. However, these are not some miracle speakers that won't need a sub for HT type bass, nor are they going to be SPL kings. Within their limits they are incredible, but its important to respect those limits. Treat them the way you would treat an extremely high quality 5.5" two-way, and you can't go wrong IMO. If you need inspiration, look at the rave reviews that Jim Griffin's Jordan/Aurum Cantus 2 way has recieved, and then consider that the CSS driver has been called as good or better than the Jordan. I hope this helps, if you have more questions let me know and I'll do my best to answer.
To answer your specific questions:
1. I don't have my measurement gear yet so I can't post any measurements, sorry. I should be getting a behringer mic soon and can do some measurements then. I also can't verify the CSS specs for the same reason, however, if it puts your mind at ease at all, the technical paper about the WR125 on the CSS site is written by Dan Wiggins of Adire Audio, who is quite highly regarded and TTBoMK, has never been known to overembellish specs.
2. Power handling - the computer speaker pair are run full range. On all but the most bass-heavy material, their dynamic range seems unlimited in this setup. I can't say how many watts they will 'take', but I'm using a fairly beefy old Carver 60wpc reciever to drive them, and I can't get past 11 o'clock on most material before its too loud. Put it this way - I've played everything from large scale classical to Dr. Dre to drum & bass, and on every occasion, my ears have given out before the speakers showed any sign of strain. Keep in mind however, that this is sitting about 1 foot from the speakers. Still, on most material, even in normal listening positions, these things could fill a small room easily, especially if tuned a bit higher (or better yet, sealed). Which brings me to another point - see point 5 for more on tuning.
The other speaker is used as my centre channel. Same box, same tuning. Here the speaker is run out of my receiver (100wpc pioneer), with I beleive a 2nd order highpass at 100hz. In my small room, it is about 6' from my head. In this setting the speaker is amazing. I have watched several full movies at this point, from The Two Towers to The Hulk to The Big Lebowski (my personal fav. center channel dialogue test). In every case, dialogue has been better than I've ever heard it before. I have played at pretty good levels, although I'm not someone who listens extremely loud. Initially, I got worried at louder passages, but after playing some of those and watching the driver excursion, my concerns have faded. This is a paranoia particular to me; until I've fully learned the limitations of a new speaker, I am always worried I'll blow it. It is not specific to this speaker or driver at all.
3. I have not yet tried a tweeter. I probably will not add one to the center channel, but I will add one to the computer speakers. This is not because I miss the 'sparkle' at all, I find the current sound most satisfying. However, I use the computer speakers as monitors for mixing music, much of it in mp3 format from various sources. The single most common probelm with carelessy encoded mp3s is high frequency artifacts such as ringing or swishing - often around 16khz. I need to be able to hear these artifacts so I can easily weed out and reject those mp3s which have such problems. If the speakers were not being used in this critical application, I would not bother, the added expense plus the chance of ruining the coherency with a crossover are not worth it IMO. The tweeter I will most likely use is a 10mm Audax gold dome, available at madisound and Solen. I've also thought about using the VifaXT19 or one of the seas 3/4" tweeters. I will not use them in an MTM setup, though I'm sure it would sound great and reduce the reflections from the desk they sit on, its not in my budget. For the center channel, I would not use a horizontal mtm because of dispersion issues. Vertical MTMs would probably be quite appropriate though, and would help with SPL a great deal.
4. My boxes are 12" deep by 15" high/wide (depending on orientation) and 6.5" wide/high (ditto), with a single shelf brace. The port is the 1.5" flared one that CSS sells. This tunes the speaker to ~48-50hz. Port noise is not an issue at all. Internal volume is somewhere around 11-11.5L. All walls are damped with my own DIY material, a sandwich with a first layer of thick mousepads, a second layer of closed cell foam normally used to kill sound underneath that interlocking laminate flooring, and finally matress underpadding. All of these are 'glued' together with Mono 'Acoustical Sealant' caulk (nasty, nasty stuff). This deadens the cabinet very well, and also does a good job soaking up the backwave. The back wall behind the driver is covered in acoustic foam on top of said sandwich. Wherever possible, I used aysmettric placement & orientation of damping material.
I have some pictures of the construction process that I'll try and post later, seem to have misplaced my CF card right now.
My general impressions of the sound, in order of how much they jump out at you:
1. Dynamic
2. Undistorted
3. Precise Imaging
The computer speakers are just amazing, I don't think I've fully absorbed just how high the level of performance is in this role. It really puts my main system to shame in almost every way, probably because the speakers are never getting close to their limits.
The center channel speaker is great as well. I have fairly nice mains, ACI Spirit/Opals, and in the past for solo HT viewing, I would always use the phantom center mode on my receiver, since I was sitting in the sweet spot anyways. Now I don't think I will be doing that anymore. While the phantom center still provides a more seamless front soundstage, this speaker is so obviously of a higher resolution through the midbass and midrange than the ACIs, that I will take the hit in net coeherence to hear the extra detail in the center channel. Dialogue is an order of magnitude clearer than on my old TB871 center, and best of all, I'm not 'riding the remote' (adjusting volume) nearly as much to try and hear quiet without making action sequences unbearably loud. The remote stays at my side throughout the whole movie, which is a BIG plus in my books. The ACIs have a laid back character, whereas the center at times demands your attention. There will be something, like a female vocal, or a few string notes, that really grab you and make you focus in a way the ACIs rarely do. This is another big plus IMO, since the moments when this happens tend to be the big emotional or dramatic bits.
If you want to use these all-around for an HT, I would say you could end up with an extremly coherent system with incredible imaging and very low distortion. However, these are not some miracle speakers that won't need a sub for HT type bass, nor are they going to be SPL kings. Within their limits they are incredible, but its important to respect those limits. Treat them the way you would treat an extremely high quality 5.5" two-way, and you can't go wrong IMO. If you need inspiration, look at the rave reviews that Jim Griffin's Jordan/Aurum Cantus 2 way has recieved, and then consider that the CSS driver has been called as good or better than the Jordan. I hope this helps, if you have more questions let me know and I'll do my best to answer.
Morbo:
Thanks for the update. Based upon your comments and the comments of others, I ordered a pair of these drivers to play with.
Of note, while modeling the driver with the latest version of WIN ISD, I discovered that using a .3cu.ft. cabinet tuned to 60HZ but adding a first order high pass filter at 100 hz, yields a very nice response curve. Without the high pass filter, there is a +3-4db bump centered around 100hz. The high pass filter subdues the otherwise large peak in output and results in a response curve which is almost directly comparable to a sealed box enclosure of comparable size except the vented setup with the filter appears to have much better control over the cone's excursion and also yields the high group delay values of a ported enclosure.
I've also been investigating inexpensive 3/4" dome tweeters to mate with this driver and so far I've been considering the following (comments/recommendations welcome):
Scanspeak D2008/8512
Scanspeak D2010/8513
Seas 19TAF/D
Seas 19TFF1
Seas 20TFF
Audax TM020j3
Vifa TC20TD05-06
Vifa D19TD-05-08
LPG 19P
Visaton G20SC
Hiquphon OW1
Without hearing the speakers first, it is hard to tell what makes the most sense, but I'm now thinking that the front and center channel configuration which might be best is a TMM configuration with a subwoofer and active high pass set at 100hz. For surrounds I'm thinking that a single driver in a ported enclosure might work well.
I'll post results once I get the drivers in and do some testing.
Andy
Thanks for the update. Based upon your comments and the comments of others, I ordered a pair of these drivers to play with.
Of note, while modeling the driver with the latest version of WIN ISD, I discovered that using a .3cu.ft. cabinet tuned to 60HZ but adding a first order high pass filter at 100 hz, yields a very nice response curve. Without the high pass filter, there is a +3-4db bump centered around 100hz. The high pass filter subdues the otherwise large peak in output and results in a response curve which is almost directly comparable to a sealed box enclosure of comparable size except the vented setup with the filter appears to have much better control over the cone's excursion and also yields the high group delay values of a ported enclosure.
I've also been investigating inexpensive 3/4" dome tweeters to mate with this driver and so far I've been considering the following (comments/recommendations welcome):
Scanspeak D2008/8512
Scanspeak D2010/8513
Seas 19TAF/D
Seas 19TFF1
Seas 20TFF
Audax TM020j3
Vifa TC20TD05-06
Vifa D19TD-05-08
LPG 19P
Visaton G20SC
Hiquphon OW1
Without hearing the speakers first, it is hard to tell what makes the most sense, but I'm now thinking that the front and center channel configuration which might be best is a TMM configuration with a subwoofer and active high pass set at 100hz. For surrounds I'm thinking that a single driver in a ported enclosure might work well.
I'll post results once I get the drivers in and do some testing.
Andy
Yes, you are correct, the OW1 is not inexpensive, but it is supposed to be extremely good. I supposed it and the Scan-Speak drivers probably do not belong on this list since they are all $50 or more and I had stated I wanted an inexpensive tweeter. However, if these mids are as good as I expect them to be, and the off axis response is as good as has been described, then perhaps a high quality 19/20mm tweeter at the level of the OW1 is in order.
Recommendations, comments, concerns for a good tweeter to mate with this mid/woofer would be appreciated.
Andy
Recommendations, comments, concerns for a good tweeter to mate with this mid/woofer would be appreciated.
Andy
ABS - the EQed smaller box seems like a good plan. Just one thing - although the excursion may be kept under control better down to the tuning frequency, keep in mind that below the tuning frequency the driver becomes unloaded and flops around like crazy trying to make output. This is very undesireable in a fullrange driver IMO. This is especially a concern with HT, where some soundtracks route a lot of bass to all channels - a ported speaker (unfiltered that is) will be damaged easier if some really low fr content makes it into the signal. Are you planning on filtering them, and if so what Fr/slope will you use?
Your list of tweeters looks good, though I can't say I've ever used any of them. It pretty much mirrors my own. I am probably going to go with the little Audaxes, because of $$$ concerns and because they should perform very well if crossed high enough, say 6 k or do. I'm not too sure when I will get to that though, too many projects (and most of al,l too much to learn) as is!
Your list of tweeters looks good, though I can't say I've ever used any of them. It pretty much mirrors my own. I am probably going to go with the little Audaxes, because of $$$ concerns and because they should perform very well if crossed high enough, say 6 k or do. I'm not too sure when I will get to that though, too many projects (and most of al,l too much to learn) as is!
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