NB,
The obbligato's are now getting a much more even sound and the mid band is getting better the sound is now open with no reverb effect. Bass is getting better as well. The treble has lost its edgy sound as well.
So I think they will stay in
.
Its really strange I'm sitting in the other room with the door open and I can hear the difference in the depth. OK its my ears again I guess.
The problem now (self made) is the resistors in the cathode of the Aikido.
Normally I have an idea of what to use, but I'm not so sure this time.
Regards
M. Gregg
The obbligato's are now getting a much more even sound and the mid band is getting better the sound is now open with no reverb effect. Bass is getting better as well. The treble has lost its edgy sound as well.
So I think they will stay in
.Its really strange I'm sitting in the other room with the door open and I can hear the difference in the depth. OK its my ears again I guess.
The problem now (self made) is the resistors in the cathode of the Aikido.
Normally I have an idea of what to use, but I'm not so sure this time.
Regards
M. Gregg
Again I only used them in my speakers!
However, when I first made the crossovers, everything was sort-of-loose, for me to try the circuit and fine tune it by ear.
When I was finally happy, I didn't touch it for two weeks to make sure I WAS happy!
Finally I encased all components in hot glue to the piece of laminate wood flooring I was using as circuit-board ( at 7mm thick multi-layered board, it was the toughest thing I could find) and the board got screwed in firmly to the back panel using four extra screws, as well as the two, Sonus Faber originally used.
Hence I went from major vibration (inside a speaker) to the least amount of vibration I could manage.
Did it change the sound?
I'm damned if I could tell!
BTW : the speakers are sitting on three dome-head stainless steel bolts onto a large 40mm granite slab - for laugh I put little 2mm thick sorbothane pads under each bolt - Not only I could tell the difference in bass quality, but also I didn't like it - pads are gone now.
One of my Transcendent GGs has Mundorf Silver/Oils fitted and I find these a very neutral sounding cap. I don't usually buy expensive caps but I'm going to try the Silver/Golds when I'm feeling a bit flush. These aren't really that expensive tbh. Hell, boutique stuff, I can't believe what I'm saying
One of my Transcendent GGs has Mundorf Silver/Oils fitted and I find these a very neutral sounding cap. I don't usually buy expensive caps but I'm going to try the Silver/Golds when I'm feeling a bit flush. These aren't really that expensive tbh. Hell, boutique stuff, I can't believe what I'm saying
I have used Silver /Oil in a few projects, I'm not a fan.
I keep getting a feeling there is something missing in the music.
I prefer the Audyn true copper<<but it takes a while for my ears to burn in. They sound a bit strange at first. Compared to the old Audio note copper in oil they are similar sounding. (NB the lead outs on True copper are a PITA and are not a good idea for standard replacement)
Jupiter wax can sound very nice..but they are so fragile..Hovland super caps sound similar and perhaps better.YMMV
Its quite interesting that the audio note copper in oil sounded similar to the Audyn TC.
However here is something interesting on the same circuit, using the Audio note I increased the B+ and after a few minutes the sound suddenly became very open (I'm not talking half an hour here I'm talking about 30 seconds). The change was so dramatic that I thought something was failing on the Audio note cap. So I removed them and put the Audyn back in and I could instantly hear there was now a difference between the two caps. So I reduced the B+ and put the Audio note cap back but the change in sound was now permanent even on the lower B+. I checked for leakage but there was none. Remember the audio note had been in circuit for about two weeks prior to this happening. (With no change)
The problem with Boutique stuff, is obviously the price.
However you don't know what effect its going to have (Good or Bad). Some people will have you believe that ordinary parts don't have a sound and they do!
So you can pick between any component makes of the same value parts and be an audiophile using cheap parts. Orange drop and LCR are a typical example. Maplin 2Watt MF resistors and RS components parts.
Normally anything with Vishay linked to the make is quite good (general rule of thumb). I have NEVER liked Holco resistors is an example.
I also prefer the magnetic Tantalum resistors. YMMV.
It would seem that magnetic parts have a brighter sound only a general observation. Copper end caps or steel end caps. An example is using all parts that are warm sounding and ending up with something that sounds awful. This can happen with non-magnetic tantalum.
I had many years when I simply would not use tantalum resistors. The shinkoh can sound like all the treble has been removed and the mid range is strange. However put them in the right place and the depth of sound is interesting. You can get a similar sound using Kiwame in the anodes and Takman REY MF for everything else. Perhaps put a 0.5 Watt Magnetic tantalum in place of the 1 Meg grid grounding resistor on the first tube in a line stage or power amp. (it removes the high freq haze) some people like the metal sound. I thought I did for a while....
Red Z Jantzen and silver Z are very different sounding caps, I prefer Hovland Super caps however when you want to use large values of cap as in this project 3.3uF the cost becomes an issue. You don't need to spend silly money you can use .5 Watt tantalum in the grid positions where there is only signal to worry about. A typical example is the first 1Meg on the input grid and compare to the sound of a Takman Metal REY. The REY is brighter sounding but warm. The tantalum is hard to put into words perhaps deeper than the REY. I tried the Takman carbon and hated them.
Its always horses for courses I do like Kiwame but in the cathode position of this Aikido they aren't very good.
However they are compact and have a good withstand voltage.
There seems to be a link between the coupling caps and the resistors in circuit. It took me quite a while to try and understand the idea's that Duelund are portraying, the idea that "plastic is bad". However trying to get Tantalum resistors to work well with cheap polypropylene caps is another matter..and one of the reasons I didn't like tantalum (but do now). NB plastic is not bad its just that some plastic is bad with other types of components.
Regards
M. Gregg
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I can't believe some of the prices I've seen for boutique parts so I very rarely buy that sort of stuff. Some of it may be very good though I'm convinced a lot of it is mutton dressed as lamb. I just try to buy good quality everyday parts, the best I can for the right money without getting sucked into this trap. Once you fall in it's a deep hole!
As for the Mundorfs well we don't all have the same hearing or preferences I suppose. I happen to like those Takman carbon films too. To my ears their metal films can exhibit a slight glare or hardness. I do like Kiwames though and I'm tempted to redo my other GG with those all the way through as there's only a handful of resistors on the board.
As for the Mundorfs well we don't all have the same hearing or preferences I suppose. I happen to like those Takman carbon films too. To my ears their metal films can exhibit a slight glare or hardness. I do like Kiwames though and I'm tempted to redo my other GG with those all the way through as there's only a handful of resistors on the board.
Well I think its all overpriced!
The cost of them means you have to be conservative how and where you use them!
I am also very careful what I buy or use. The problem is you can buy components and find they are not what you expected. I have toyed with trying the carbon Takmans in the cathode of the aikido.
But the last experience put me off..
The prices of things like ceramic Jensens, paper and copper foil, V-cap etc.
The point is they have no magical properties. If the circuit is rubbish then its "lipstick on a pig"<<some may like it..
I liked the Mundorf S/O for some time until I built an OTL..I used Hovland in that and I thought they were better than Jupiter wax.
The cap guide Humble Homemade Hifi is pretty accurate..however it does depend on many factors.
I used standard RS carbon film 2watt in the early equipment I built and to be honest it sounded very good. I spent a long time trying different things and audio tweaks but most of the stuff was a lost cause.
Just grabbed a handful a bits from a box within reach..still as they were pulled from the equipment after test..The ampohm are shielded with foil and a drain wire. Eventually they will get used as and when they meet the requirement. NB anything that meet the requirement you don't see here! its still in the kit.
Regards
M. Gregg
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I have used Silver /Oil in a few projects, I'm not a fan.
Me too, just didn't want to say anything since harwoodspark likes his, and I didn't want to be negative.
I had some, tried them in two different amps - they were not bad, just nothing special!
I could not hear any difference between them, and red WIMA's, so mine was flogged on eBay!
The only thing I can hear from resistors, is the amount noise they can make, they are all tonally the same to me.
Well its interesting,
I have used carbon Takman rex in the past with not very good results.
So you know what I'm going to say don't you..
I was looking for resistors for the cathode of the Aikido line stage (R3/R6) and I kept thinking Tantalum but in the back of my mind try the Takman rex carbon again.
So I now have Takman REX carbon in the Aikido cathodes of the line stage.
And it sounds really good!
First impressions with Spandau ballet..are very very open..the difference between them and the Maplin 2watt metal film is huge. Tighter bass with more open treble. The detail is a lot easier to hear as well with the lose of the Glare of the MF and there is more depth to the sound.
Compared to the Takman REY MF in the same position there is much less warmth and tighter bass using the REX.
When I tried them last time they gave a dark edge to the sound (Different circuit and coupling caps).
So the combination is:
Tantalum magnetic AN 1meg on input and output with law faked Volume pots 100K and 15K tantalum resistor.
All other resistors are Takman REY MF. Obbligato on the output at 3.3uF input is silver Z 1uF.
And carbon Takman REX in the cathodes value 270 ohm. ECC88.
Its early days yet however the sound is close to some of the high end demonstrations I have listened to from the point of clarity.
Of course it can always be better...
Regards
M. Gregg
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OK quick update,
I noticed the obbligato has an emphasis on the top end Treble.
So I looked at the 1Meg on the output of the Aikido line stage. (the obbligato connects to this resistor)
I had a Tantalum resistor in this position however I notice the Magnetic tantalum also have an emphasis on the treble this is fine with output caps with a flat frequency response like the LCR I posted earlier.
So just for interest I replaced the output resistor with a Takman REY MF 1meg and the Takman have an effect of smoothing the treble
(non magnetic component) The effect is to control the high end on the obbligato and the sound is very smooth. Not quite as open as the Tantalum but the mid-band scoop is also returned to normal. All the detail remains as before.
The obbligato is a better capacitor than the LCR FP-CA-AU however the LCR is more even handed but not as open.
There is always a trade off isn't there..
The Takman REY has a warmer sound than the REX but the REX carbon remain in the cathodes of the Line stage which seems to remove the metal film glare. The Silver Z input cap has also smoothed out so it sounds very easy to listen to.
The Takman REY MF try to remove this Glare with brass end caps and a warmer sound. just for those interested.
So it seems that the non-magnetic components have less emphasis on the treble Hi frequency.
I have now found this with most components I have tried YMMV.
I did wonder if the output resistor was in some way interacting with the output cable (type), however with a driven cable there should be no effect.
Just an observation.
Regards
M. Gregg
I noticed the obbligato has an emphasis on the top end Treble.
So I looked at the 1Meg on the output of the Aikido line stage. (the obbligato connects to this resistor)
I had a Tantalum resistor in this position however I notice the Magnetic tantalum also have an emphasis on the treble this is fine with output caps with a flat frequency response like the LCR I posted earlier.
So just for interest I replaced the output resistor with a Takman REY MF 1meg and the Takman have an effect of smoothing the treble
(non magnetic component) The effect is to control the high end on the obbligato and the sound is very smooth. Not quite as open as the Tantalum but the mid-band scoop is also returned to normal. All the detail remains as before.
The obbligato is a better capacitor than the LCR FP-CA-AU however the LCR is more even handed but not as open.
There is always a trade off isn't there..
The Takman REY has a warmer sound than the REX but the REX carbon remain in the cathodes of the Line stage which seems to remove the metal film glare. The Silver Z input cap has also smoothed out so it sounds very easy to listen to.
The Takman REY MF try to remove this Glare with brass end caps and a warmer sound. just for those interested.
So it seems that the non-magnetic components have less emphasis on the treble Hi frequency.
I have now found this with most components I have tried YMMV.
I did wonder if the output resistor was in some way interacting with the output cable (type), however with a driven cable there should be no effect.
Just an observation.
Regards
M. Gregg
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So - you have discovered the Obbligato's bright nature.
I have read that some consider Obbligatos to have a dark nature! not to my ears, and evidently, not to yours.
But I bet if you actually measure the freq. response of your equipment with the finest measuring instruments, you'll probably find that all caps/resistors are all almost the same!
So why does one sound bright, and another dull?
I have a theory:
I believe it is all to do with information retrieval (resolution of the sound), together with some psycho-acoustics.
I believe the human ear considers brightness and dullness, not in the same way as a test equipment. to a test-equipment if the level of treble region rises above the norm, then it is bright and so on.
The human ear, considers a sound as bright, when it can hear more of the treble's texture, i.e. resolution. If it can clearly hear a triangle, a tambourine and cymbals played together - it assumes there is more treble, because the mind can focus on to this clarity.
If the level of treble remains the same, but it gets muddled a little, then the treble seems to be lacking, the ears considers this representation as dull.
You probably have noticed this effect on a broader scale, when listening to a cheap hifi, you seem to be needing more and more power, yet a highly resolving "good hifi" can manage good levels with a few watts of tube amplification.
If you can't hear the music, you reach for the volume knob - but it may not do you any good.
I suggest the Obbligatos are not bright, they just resolve treble better.
I have read that some consider Obbligatos to have a dark nature! not to my ears, and evidently, not to yours.
But I bet if you actually measure the freq. response of your equipment with the finest measuring instruments, you'll probably find that all caps/resistors are all almost the same!
So why does one sound bright, and another dull?
I have a theory:
I believe it is all to do with information retrieval (resolution of the sound), together with some psycho-acoustics.
I believe the human ear considers brightness and dullness, not in the same way as a test equipment. to a test-equipment if the level of treble region rises above the norm, then it is bright and so on.
The human ear, considers a sound as bright, when it can hear more of the treble's texture, i.e. resolution. If it can clearly hear a triangle, a tambourine and cymbals played together - it assumes there is more treble, because the mind can focus on to this clarity.
If the level of treble remains the same, but it gets muddled a little, then the treble seems to be lacking, the ears considers this representation as dull.
You probably have noticed this effect on a broader scale, when listening to a cheap hifi, you seem to be needing more and more power, yet a highly resolving "good hifi" can manage good levels with a few watts of tube amplification.
If you can't hear the music, you reach for the volume knob - but it may not do you any good.
I suggest the Obbligatos are not bright, they just resolve treble better.
You may have a point..
On reflection..
when the mid frequencies seem scooped then you have to turn up the volume to hear the detail, then you get overpowering top end treble <<obviously because the high frequencies are now to loud.
This also makes it difficult to hear people speaking on films etc.
So you get loud screeching brakes with people mumbling when they talk.
The effect also extends to orchestral music with flutes being shrill and mid range drums being quiet by comparison. Even to the point when orchestral music is playing and people talk in a film you struggle to hear the voices over the trumpets etc.
Of course to some people this is complete nonsense and a component is just a component. Then they say well audio grade components are rubbish anyway. However they don't even consider that similar effects may be at work with standard parts.
Of course you could say the obbligato has extension in the top registers, but this would seem irrelevant when there is better clarity compared to something like Jantzen Red Z cap which sounds flat by comparison and perhaps overly warm.
There is no doubt in my mind that there appears to be selective filtering where complete instruments just vanish with standard parts.
I have heard Obbigatos sound dark in a system.
The sound signature of Takman REY MF is fairly constant and seems to reflect either construction or the non- magnetic nature of the component.
The REX again has a sound of its own as do most parts.
The Jantzen silver definitely shows components that are otherwise either missing or veiled to the point of virtual non-existence in the playback. To the point of playing a CD on another system sounds like a completely different recording. However initially they are very hard to listen to..(LMAO what you mean they burn in..) er just like the Takman REX. Which seems to have two sounds. Its a shame because the initial sound is probably better..
Then as you say its not measurable..its quite strange.
Regards
M. Gregg
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I have been thinking about this,
How can a component have a frequency response, but a different component can pass more information with the same frequency response...
Its almost like saying some of the components are sensitive to low level detail and some only respond to certain levels of sound ie if the level of the back ground information is not high enough in volume it is attenuated even more by the component. (That's how it seems)
I have noticed similar things with duets on music, where with some systems its hard to separate the voices. Then on another system you can instantly tell there are two people singing together with a completely different sound to each voice. (similar to the tambourine and the triangle) The situation seems like on one system when I listen very carefully there is a tambourine in the background then put another component in and the tambourine is instantly there with as much volume as the rest of the mix. This is where coupling transformers may have an impact..
Regards
M. Gregg
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It's all weird, mixed with bit of black-magic!
No-one knows for sure what exactly goes on inside a component. Different ears can zoom in on different parts of a sound reproduction too.
You hear difference between resistors, I can hardly tell.
I can tell between different capacitors, my friend thinks I am mad (yet he is always at my place listening to music).
This is why the music industry went digital - they thought their problem was limited to noise, overload distortion and uneven frequency response (Paah ...).
Yet we still have turntable manufacturers, tube amplifiers and so on - and those in the know, actually prefer them.
I used to have solid state poweramps, driving my 3 way speakers through an active crossover, with damping factors of a few million! yet they could not hold a candle to bass reproduction of my current tube OTL poweramp, driving my conventional LCR passive crossover-ed speakers -
my OTL amp has an output impedance of about 1 ohm with laughable corresponding damping factor.
What I thought I knew about circuits and hifi, my recent tube amps shat on the whole lot.
They have high distortion, ridiculous damping factor, only 30 watts into 8 ohm, and unlike ss power-houses, with double power at 4 Ohms, these pump out less than 20 watts.
Needless to say, it beats the pants off anything I had heard before, when it comes to playing music!
A hifi system is the extension of musical instruments, and probably subject to same unknown magic.
What makes a Guarneri sound that way?
Why can't we duplicate it (even improve on it), with our latest technology laser cutters, 3D routing machines etc. ?
Repairing a classic violin with the wrong glue, can affect the quality of its sound - changing a capacitor can affect the sound of a high-grade amp.
same glue or capacitor will have no effect on mass produced Chinese violins or amps!
No-one knows for sure what exactly goes on inside a component. Different ears can zoom in on different parts of a sound reproduction too.
You hear difference between resistors, I can hardly tell.
I can tell between different capacitors, my friend thinks I am mad (yet he is always at my place listening to music).
This is why the music industry went digital - they thought their problem was limited to noise, overload distortion and uneven frequency response (Paah ...).
Yet we still have turntable manufacturers, tube amplifiers and so on - and those in the know, actually prefer them.
I used to have solid state poweramps, driving my 3 way speakers through an active crossover, with damping factors of a few million! yet they could not hold a candle to bass reproduction of my current tube OTL poweramp, driving my conventional LCR passive crossover-ed speakers -
my OTL amp has an output impedance of about 1 ohm with laughable corresponding damping factor.
What I thought I knew about circuits and hifi, my recent tube amps shat on the whole lot.
They have high distortion, ridiculous damping factor, only 30 watts into 8 ohm, and unlike ss power-houses, with double power at 4 Ohms, these pump out less than 20 watts.
Needless to say, it beats the pants off anything I had heard before, when it comes to playing music!
A hifi system is the extension of musical instruments, and probably subject to same unknown magic.
What makes a Guarneri sound that way?
Why can't we duplicate it (even improve on it), with our latest technology laser cutters, 3D routing machines etc. ?
Repairing a classic violin with the wrong glue, can affect the quality of its sound - changing a capacitor can affect the sound of a high-grade amp.
same glue or capacitor will have no effect on mass produced Chinese violins or amps!
Well the aikido line stage,
went back to the tantalum resistors on the output 1meg .5 W magnetic.
It would seem the capacitors have settled enough to lose the glare or perhaps something else has happened.
I went through this process with an amp a while ago tantalum went in and came back out about 10 times..LMAO
Each time I removed them I seemed to miss something so they went back again.
Its very strange....so my equipment is slowly getting more tantalum resistors fitted. (Years ago I went through this process and hated them)
I now have the openness and the high frequencies have calmed down..Strange I never noticed it but perhaps I did unconsciously, or why did I decide to change back?
Regards
M. Gregg
went back to the tantalum resistors on the output 1meg .5 W magnetic.
It would seem the capacitors have settled enough to lose the glare or perhaps something else has happened.
I went through this process with an amp a while ago tantalum went in and came back out about 10 times..LMAO
Each time I removed them I seemed to miss something so they went back again.
Its very strange..
..so my equipment is slowly getting more tantalum resistors fitted. (Years ago I went through this process and hated them)I now have the openness and the high frequencies have calmed down..Strange I never noticed it but perhaps I did unconsciously, or why did I decide to change back?
Regards
M. Gregg
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Just curious,
Has anyone ever used Le Clanche Signal path capacitors?
I'm wondering if they are similar to Solen or Auricap..
Regards
M. Gregg
Has anyone ever used Le Clanche Signal path capacitors?
I'm wondering if they are similar to Solen or Auricap..
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Regards
M. Gregg
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