I have to disagree. I still find them treat us customers as morons. Where can a customer listen to the touted High Fidelity? It is being listened through some 0.8% driver distortion. Distressingly, enough of supposedly respectable and knowledgeable people understand this fact yet choose to propagate and support the nonsense all the time.
As Matt put it, it is different but how do we know it is better?
I suppose some audio is very well made or crafted. Not necessary for the sound but aesthetic appeal to those who enjoy quality materials and build as well as performance all in same package.
Some , who for what ever reason may choose to have just the performance at lowest build cost. Others want only the looks... it looks great but doesnt performance great.
And, some want both. Quality build and quality sound. But, that costs more, of course.
Those are just personal value judgments to which no one here should complain. To each his/her own pleasure and priorities.
-Richard
Some , who for what ever reason may choose to have just the performance at lowest build cost. Others want only the looks... it looks great but doesnt performance great.
And, some want both. Quality build and quality sound. But, that costs more, of course.
Those are just personal value judgments to which no one here should complain. To each his/her own pleasure and priorities.
-Richard
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As for a successful audio product, one does not have to please millions of people to sell millions of product. You only have to please 1-2 people. The magazine reviewer. thats all and sales will grow from that.
A so-so or bad review will seldom result in large/increased sales.
How do you get a good review? Its multi-faceted but basically you pander to the listening bias of the reviewer. If he/she has always liked the effect of distortion of amps with high 2H, then you tweek yours for a little 2H. ETC.
if you design for high accuracy instead, you are better off having someone like Robert Green evaluate it for sound quality. ETC.
You get my point. It is no different than a job where you please your boss and you get a raise. If you dont please your boss, well, you know how that ends.
Now, it should not be assumed a good review means a great product necessarily. I have to hear from many different magazines and reviewers and if they all thnk it is great then maybe it truly is great. Products which get good reviews from same magazine over and over is suspect that bias is playing a role.
-Richard
A so-so or bad review will seldom result in large/increased sales.
How do you get a good review? Its multi-faceted but basically you pander to the listening bias of the reviewer. If he/she has always liked the effect of distortion of amps with high 2H, then you tweek yours for a little 2H. ETC.
if you design for high accuracy instead, you are better off having someone like Robert Green evaluate it for sound quality. ETC.
You get my point. It is no different than a job where you please your boss and you get a raise. If you dont please your boss, well, you know how that ends.
Now, it should not be assumed a good review means a great product necessarily. I have to hear from many different magazines and reviewers and if they all thnk it is great then maybe it truly is great. Products which get good reviews from same magazine over and over is suspect that bias is playing a role.
-Richard
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Can you even find more than 1 or 2 examples of bad reviews? Reviewers will not bite the hand that feeds in an industry that is so small. They damn with faint praise, if at all.
It only appears that way --- but. The "high-End" mags get or can get any and many products... far more than they have time to review or pages to publish. So, only the ones which are good enough and/or have a new buzz feature gets reviewed. Or an established company does something new for its first time.... So most turn out , after quick listen/test, to get sorted. Of course, the better ones prevail and get published.
There are lots which dont get serious review space... recievers, for example. Or portable speakers for iPOD or streaming from phone. ETC where the sound is no where near even the better level. TV sound bars is another which comes to mind. ETC. Those products sell by price and features. And, a lot of them are sold to people with a different priority in mind.
-Richard
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That sounds like a description of an accurate amp. So you prefer amps that alter the sound? - Nothing wrong with that as a subjective preference of course.
If you mean an enclosure with passive, high power crossovers than there's a lot wrong with that. Certainly not the best technical solution, or one that is likely to have the best sound.
The biggest commercial problem with designing for something other than accuracy, is designing to whose Like? Your like, his like, her like. Likes are all over the map. And, maybe even change. And, of course test and measurments is not very useful when it comes to Likes.
I think accuracy wins out in the long run as more people on average will like it. And, have a longer selling life.
THx-RNMarsh
I think accuracy wins out in the long run as more people on average will like it. And, have a longer selling life.
THx-RNMarsh
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The idea that there is common ground makes sense to me when we talk about perception. T poo-pooed psychoacoustics without any justification, a mistake I think, it's a major concern when it comes to both production and reproduction, perhaps he means something else, or some more personalised application of psychoacoustics.
No. Measurements are very useful for this type of design philosophy if you understand the relations about their preference and the measurements.
Example, some people like H2 dominant distortion, and other like H3 dominant distortion. But likely, no one like a crossover distortion. Some people only focus on vocal quality, and then choose very H2 dominant and very low slew rate.
The most difficult for my self is dealing with transient and temperature.
Do the transfer function change (about several milisecond) after transient pass through? Do transfer function change if temperature change?
Ideally, the transfer function should not change no matter what until clipping.
Do the transfer function change (about several milisecond) after transient pass through? Do transfer function change if temperature change?
Ideally, the transfer function should not change no matter what until clipping.
I'm not so sure. Once you read all the specs, all the measurements on 3-axis g-forces around the ring for two different cars - could you truly know which one you preferred to drive. Exactly how the feeling in the wheel would be as you start turning into a bend. The motion/feel as you run over a 3mm stone at 160 mph.
Now you drive them - and???
My point is that cars are ALSO well characterised by a lot of measurement but when coming to the more fine grained and delicate aspect of driving it - you will see the same discussion in a racing forum as you do here - this is a guess - didn't check any. "Brand A has much better feel when cornering - you cant trust those G measurements" ? ... 😉
Until racing becomes un-manned, it will not be enough with just performance figures. This will happen eventually/probably to racing, but not for audio 🙂
This is all tiny detail "geekery" and that division will never be accurate or precise as long as humans are involved and has a say.
This doesn't mean that its not fun and interesting... I think it is!
//
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For me the definition of perfect sound is when I get goosebumps when listening to my favourite music.
Why do I get goosebumps, no idea, so its something inside me that makes it happen, impossible to measure but so far I only got this with Class A amps, so why look any further for alternatives ?
That would be, as Syn08 mentioned prosaically, pulling a dead horse.
Hans
Why do I get goosebumps, no idea, so its something inside me that makes it happen, impossible to measure but so far I only got this with Class A amps, so why look any further for alternatives ?
That would be, as Syn08 mentioned prosaically, pulling a dead horse.
Hans
Probably a good time for a little reminder. Whilst this particular thread is a a little more "wild west" than the rest of the forum. Please do try to treat your fellow members with respect. We have and do issue infractions (and even ban people) for things posted in this thread. Now back to the regular programming.....
I tend to agree with you only when accuracy refers to the acoustic output. Whom among designers you have ever met show any interest on that?
I was sure of this. No. It is NOT accurate. Exactly the contrary. I took care to talk about the first CD players, passive brick wall and all. Compare with what's out from a 24X96 recording and a high performance modern DAC.
Why are-you supposing my linear amps add noticeable distortion ? They just reveal more details in a more natural way.
Sorry, but this is still a hasty simplification.
My main speakers (DIY) are active, with a three-way digital filter. I switch them to passive when I have an amp to test. My filters? 24dB / octave, (large air coils, film capacitances for the passive). Constant impedance, time aligned. Comparing active versus passive, there are pros and cons to each. Let's say that the passive filter offers a more coherent dynamic behavior, and that the active filter better separation more analytic (less IM ?).
My next try will be to use the same PSU for both ways instead of two separate. Reading-it, may-be you will understand why.
Sometimes, on my PC, I hear a tune with a big recording problem. Listening the day after, it has near completely disappeared. And the contrary.
Are some technical condition changed (AC, humidity etc.) ? Or my brain ?
How many times, listening the day after to one of my mix, I was disappointed and hated myself ? And, listening to the final product thought it was not so bad, at the end.
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