John,
As your life long friend....... see Demian and get set up with his gear and loose both the CD and LP from your life. Try it, OK?
For 50 years, I have learned and developed tests and build gear in speakers, amps, recording, acoustics to try to find the sound of real music in my home. I have never done it. Until now. Finally, after a life time it sounds like the real deal. HD Audio--- direct. It is like NTSC vs Blue Ray or 4K.
THx--- Dick Marsh
Digital does bring out the flaws in modern material. DAC + "300W CFA" amp
I can hear Tom sholtz's (Boston) pasted 16 track tapes - better hiss 😀 ... and
all sorts of other past "analog goodness".
Jump ahead to the 90's (DDD) full digital recordings , no hiss or artifacts -
but poorly recorded compressed perfection 🙄
Edit - but .. a real good mastered digital recording (some of my FLAC classical) - wow !
Piano material really benefits from a very fast powerful amp.
OS
I can hear Tom sholtz's (Boston) pasted 16 track tapes - better hiss 😀 ... and
all sorts of other past "analog goodness".
Jump ahead to the 90's (DDD) full digital recordings , no hiss or artifacts -
but poorly recorded compressed perfection 🙄
Edit - but .. a real good mastered digital recording (some of my FLAC classical) - wow !
Piano material really benefits from a very fast powerful amp.
OS
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Richard, I have worked extensively with Demian, AND I have heard his digital feedback through Constellation that he also consults for. No contest, phono playback is better.
Hi John,
Always like reading your posts. I have a slightly off topic question: What do you think of the Linear Systems K389 dual jfet? Do you find it to be a superior replacement to the 2N5564/65/66? Are there any other similar devices manufactured today and readily available?
Again digital is the better objective source, but vinyl fits the playback chain better. The mechanical coding of dynamic unlinarities by the cartridge are better suited for the same type of dynamic issues found in the speKer. Sorry but vinyl playback and speaker are a match made to fit. why can't they just live together side by side. It dosent have to be I'am right and you're wrong. For studios and mixing and listened over something like magnestatic headphones digital rules, but for dynamic loudspeaker systems vinyl is just a better match. Easy to explain and easy to understand if a little horizontal thinking is applied.
John, let's not forget the price factor. I have no idea how much your Blowtorch costs, but I believe it could not be called cheap. Now, compare its price with what you get for the same money in digitalia; whatever it may be, it will be asked to cover the costs of the CD mechanics, digitalia and analog, in other words a lot more in the pure physical sense than your preamp. While chips have gone down in price quite considerably, there's simply much more ground to cover.
As my own Yamaha CDX 993 proves, you can include discrete circuitry in a very comepetently made package for what is still reasonable money. It cost me, whe factoring in world inflation at 3% but disregarding exchange rates, around $850 in current prices, a VERY favorable price for a 20 lb package like that, and a gift when considering the sound quality it offers in comparison with its competition of the day.
I mention it not because it's the world's best ever, but because it clearly shows, along with a few others, that some did know how to do it properly. 14 years later, what it used to do is done just as well and in my view bettered by NAD's C565BEE, which to me means they HAVE been doing some development work. Not enough, perhaps, not in the right direction, perhaps, but they ARE getting better and better. And better late than never.
As my own Yamaha CDX 993 proves, you can include discrete circuitry in a very comepetently made package for what is still reasonable money. It cost me, whe factoring in world inflation at 3% but disregarding exchange rates, around $850 in current prices, a VERY favorable price for a 20 lb package like that, and a gift when considering the sound quality it offers in comparison with its competition of the day.
I mention it not because it's the world's best ever, but because it clearly shows, along with a few others, that some did know how to do it properly. 14 years later, what it used to do is done just as well and in my view bettered by NAD's C565BEE, which to me means they HAVE been doing some development work. Not enough, perhaps, not in the right direction, perhaps, but they ARE getting better and better. And better late than never.
Edit... before I even post 😀 I felt I had to spout on this as this subject just goes round and round and round.
Just for one moment try and look at what you are saying from 'outside the box' and look at the whole question from another angle. I don't doubt for a moment that your analogue (vinyl) system is capable of stunning performance.
This is my 'take' on the problem. You are putting all your energies into designing an ever more transparent amplification chain. To what purpose ? Presumably to give the least corruption to what is an imperfect and flawed source. You can't talk your way out of that. Vinyl on many technical fronts is lousy. But and here is the rub you (and countless others) absolutely adore the overall result. You have your 'perfect' amplification chain and an imperfect source that is noisy, distorted, has changing distortion with amplitude, has absolutely appalling channel separation... the list goes on and on. You try a different cartridge (you have your favourite, right ?)... and it sounds 'totally different'. That cartridge change brings about changes that are orders of magnitude greater than any simple change to amp topology.
The result though can be magic. What makes it so ? Is it the imperfections acting on the way we perceive sound. Although you don't admit to it... you actually like the added changes and colouration. You must... you listen to a very imperfect medium that is highly sensitive to any component change (arm, cartridge etc).
The flip side are the guys that have grown with digital. That has a whole different set of 'problems'. It addresses many of vinyl's limitations but adds others of its own.
The vinyl lover starts with what many on here (certainly me) would call an 'effects box'. Reproduce that through a transparent amplification chain and the result can be wonderful. That is not in doubt.
The digital set up is different. Those imperfections are largely missing. It seems to be an observation that digital reproduced transparently, and although that may be closer to the original, isn't always well liked as a listening experience.
So you now you have the rather curious case of wanting or needing to colour the signal via other means... perhaps now via amplification more sympathetic to the digital source.
This is what many will not admit to, that what they actually like as an audible result is really a coloured and distorted facsimile of the original.
Vinyl (very imperfect) + ' fairly perfect' amplification = audio nirvana
Digital (much less imperfect) + 'deliberately coloured' amplification can also = audio nirvana.
It is my opinion that the vinyl enthusiast, although perhaps not admitting to the fact, is actually one of the most 'subjectively influenced' of all the listener groups when you consider the variability of the source equipment.
Some pretty weird discussion of "magic effects" going on here, 😛. Luckily, the only real 'magic' required is extremely clean reproduction - which most people don't seem to be able to recognise when it happens, and certainly aren't able to dial in whenever they wish it to be so. I've heard both vinyl and digital get there, but LP is a whole extra layer of difficulty because of all the mechanical aspects interacting - personally, I find it disconcerting hearing the tonality varying as a side plays, as the mechanical parameters keep altering during the needle's progression across the record - only the most extreme, ultra heavy-duty industrial solutions are going to resolve those aspects.
Somehow that is true. Every Analog Rig sounds different. My target is to come as close as possible to the Mastertape.
Of course, its not perfect, but i can live pretty good with those problems as long as the music catches my attention and involves me with the musicians expression.
Recorded music is always an illusion, no home system i know of can transmit full scale dynamics, so there has to be compression somewhere. No matter if digital or analog.
I just have the subjective impression, that analog compression works pretty good for my ears and if dynamics are good transformed from the whole audio chain, the noise is almost masked.
It is easy. "I like the coloration, distortion, and limited dynamics." And there's nothing wrong with that.
edit: Should have read Mooly's post first. he says this in a much more articulate way.
I'm with Moody on this. However, I recognize the fact that the CD medium has on the overall failed to deliver on its promise, not because of its own shortcomings so much as from the music industry corrupting it to suit its commercial needs. Especially regarding the "make it loud" requirements, which effectively destroyed the dynamic range it is technically capable of, reducing it to a rarity.
That said, I still keep and will continue to do so my old vinyl playback system and LPs simply because I enjoy the process and procedures of playing music with it, and because it would be too expensive (and tedious) for me to buy CDs of all my favorite LPs for the sake of two or three songs I'd like to keep on each of them.
That said, I still keep and will continue to do so my old vinyl playback system and LPs simply because I enjoy the process and procedures of playing music with it, and because it would be too expensive (and tedious) for me to buy CDs of all my favorite LPs for the sake of two or three songs I'd like to keep on each of them.
Choice of music material notwithstanding, I dare anyone and everyone here to compare Abba's Greatest Hits CD (Polydor 314 517 007-2) with its equivalent LP ony any system. This is a trick task, that particular CD is recognized as one of the best ever made in terms of using the CD technology at its best, and I must say I haven't heard the LP myself.
But I can vouch for the fact that it sounds different, sort of free and full of air, easy on the ear, and does so across the CD player range, from very cheap'n'cheerful to very good and expensive.
I bought my copy from Amazon. com, so it's easily available, no need to hunt for it.
But I can vouch for the fact that it sounds different, sort of free and full of air, easy on the ear, and does so across the CD player range, from very cheap'n'cheerful to very good and expensive.
I bought my copy from Amazon. com, so it's easily available, no need to hunt for it.
And if you wonder what are your dynamic capabilities like, try The Blue Man Group "Audio" CD (Virgin Records of America, Inc. 7243 8 48612 2 2). Electronic and plastic pipe music, they make their own instruments from plastic plumbing pipes. On Song No.8, there's a part where one of them strikes a drum with a diameter of 8 feet! If your system has the punch and power, it will kick your liver; if it doesn't, your system should be improved, call Dr. Frank. 😀
Even if your speakers lack the bottom two octaves, the second harmonic will rock you unless your amp runs out of steam.
Even if your speakers lack the bottom two octaves, the second harmonic will rock you unless your amp runs out of steam.
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