This is very funny argueing John, and in fact I lost any trust that you are serious. My only feeling is that you just protect your design philosophy by any means. Reasoning is like in marketing white papers.
There is no problem today to use 55V/us, 65MHz BW, 0.9nV/rtHz, extremely low distortion opamps. The problem is YOU do not do that, you do not try them, you do not use them, and you repeatedly bring 2WW stories about 35 years old opamps, bagatellizing any SOA measurement proof. This decreases your reputation as a professional designers, not in the eyes of blinded diyers, but in the eyes of your professional colleagues. You do not need to do it, there's no reason.
55V/us is not any limit, you can find several times faster opamps still very low noise.
Best,
Thanks PMA, I am already getting it to try in my latest phono preamp. Any more suggestions? How about the 4560? That is a pretty common design, isn't it? ;-) Wait, even better, the RC4580, only $.45 in quantity and 5V/us. New and improved, for audio, even if the schematic looks familiar, ref. Solomon.
PMA, I don't want to insult you, BUT this is reality, NOT some new, esoteric ADI device at 5-10 times the cost. This is what I want people to understand and guard against.
PMA, I don't want to insult you, BUT this is reality, NOT some new, esoteric ADI device at 5-10 times the cost. This is what I want people to understand and guard against.
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It was an eye opener for me too, even though porsche isnt my first choice of car, and I do think the Railton Napier is awesome, even seen it trying a standing quarter too. And my favourite cars I know have different shortcomings. It depends what sort of journey you want that makes one choose one over another. One comedy moment a few years ago was watching a young couple park their fiat 500 sideways in a parking spot, just because they could, try that in a standard car!
I thought it would be food for thought about cars for you.
Wrinkle
Dear John
Music to my ears
Carmina Burana to be precise the APRITE S..
Funny I have to agree with PMA.
I do follow Joachim tread
I was not asking you to lower yourself to my level I did very little HI school in 1977 as I was to busy having an audience.
And I can’t remember the last post when you actually contributed same little wisdom in this tread
But as you say there is quite a bit to learn from the like of Joachim and at times you get real pearls like Godfrey diagram about the hi frequency roll off.
I would like to see same more of those little pearls, as there are plenty of very capable “teachers” here
This is DIY Audio is it not?
Al
Music to my ears
Carmina Burana to be precise the APRITE S..
Funny I have to agree with PMA.
I do follow Joachim tread
I was not asking you to lower yourself to my level I did very little HI school in 1977 as I was to busy having an audience.
And I can’t remember the last post when you actually contributed same little wisdom in this tread
But as you say there is quite a bit to learn from the like of Joachim and at times you get real pearls like Godfrey diagram about the hi frequency roll off.
I would like to see same more of those little pearls, as there are plenty of very capable “teachers” here
This is DIY Audio is it not?
Al
Lots of Curl pearls in this document.🙂
Added bonus: There is a nice collection of Malcolm Hawksford's publications here.
The tweeters you see on Malkolms page are from a 1990th Audio Physic Step.
Have not seen him for a while though. I do not travel as much as i did in the past.
I stay a lot at home now with my family quite often.
Anyway, thanks BKS, that you learned something from my thread. I publish a lot of circuits there, so when you want to actually build something, my thread may be easier to follow. I am fascinated by the Blowtorch thread though, because John looks on things from a broader, more general point of few. Circuit design has moved on and yes, Opamps got better too but still the mystery of good sound is not solved in total yet.
I just was thinking about CD reproduction. May it be that the music on CD is kind of masked and that a linestage that "unmasks" the music may not be a simple wire with gain.
Have not seen him for a while though. I do not travel as much as i did in the past.
I stay a lot at home now with my family quite often.
Anyway, thanks BKS, that you learned something from my thread. I publish a lot of circuits there, so when you want to actually build something, my thread may be easier to follow. I am fascinated by the Blowtorch thread though, because John looks on things from a broader, more general point of few. Circuit design has moved on and yes, Opamps got better too but still the mystery of good sound is not solved in total yet.
I just was thinking about CD reproduction. May it be that the music on CD is kind of masked and that a linestage that "unmasks" the music may not be a simple wire with gain.
Joachim,
I use complex classical music to evaluate sound quality of audio components. Any, any turntable, even the most expensive at price of 20 thousand EUR approx. (I do not intend to name products here), with any phono preamplifier, even the best reviewed, distorts heavily such music program. Both in terms of harmonic distortion and necessary volume compression to get sound to the groove. Never you get explosive dynamic of classical music from LP. I agree that with simple music, like club jazz, phono sounds pleasant and nice, old masters are gorgeous and I understand that John likes it.
Regards,
I use complex classical music to evaluate sound quality of audio components. Any, any turntable, even the most expensive at price of 20 thousand EUR approx. (I do not intend to name products here), with any phono preamplifier, even the best reviewed, distorts heavily such music program. Both in terms of harmonic distortion and necessary volume compression to get sound to the groove. Never you get explosive dynamic of classical music from LP. I agree that with simple music, like club jazz, phono sounds pleasant and nice, old masters are gorgeous and I understand that John likes it.
Regards,
My experience begs to differ. About half of what i listen to is 20/21 century classical. Dynamics and resolution is way better than 16-bit audio can ever hope to be. Hi-res may be better but availability is just too limited.
Something else i believe is that using exclusively this type of source material to evaluate system's performance is quite dangerous. It risks creating a system that sounds inconvincing playing jazz and plain broken playing rock. In case you only have to satisfy only your own tastes, this would certainly not be a problem.
I am not going to claim that EVERY vinyl record sounds good, as even those that were once good, may have been abused by indifferent playback systems. This happened to me, this last Friday, at a hi end hi fi store playing Fleetwood Mac's 'Rumors'. I needed a female vocal reference, and the record was analog, but it was obviously worn out. Still, I have found discounted, used records that sound great. More than I would normally expect.
Personally, I know that we have to move on, but we are not there yet, at least in my experience, digitally. Last year we had a $20,000 digital playback system that really left me cold, even though it had great specs, and a GOOD analog playback stage. Why? Maybe, I was just not raised on digital, and am extra sensitive to it. Whatever the reason, I am not alone in this, and we will continue to develop phono playback systems. I must agree with PMA that pure cost, is not the ONLY criterion for what should be excellent playback. Sometimes, in fact often, there is very little under the 'hood' of the metal sculpture that should be extra ordinary in its ability to give great hi fi. This is unfortunate, but NOT universal. Tubes often sound better than I think they have a right to, for example.
Personally, I know that we have to move on, but we are not there yet, at least in my experience, digitally. Last year we had a $20,000 digital playback system that really left me cold, even though it had great specs, and a GOOD analog playback stage. Why? Maybe, I was just not raised on digital, and am extra sensitive to it. Whatever the reason, I am not alone in this, and we will continue to develop phono playback systems. I must agree with PMA that pure cost, is not the ONLY criterion for what should be excellent playback. Sometimes, in fact often, there is very little under the 'hood' of the metal sculpture that should be extra ordinary in its ability to give great hi fi. This is unfortunate, but NOT universal. Tubes often sound better than I think they have a right to, for example.
This is my experience, too. I mostly listen to orchestral, choral and operas, and the impact of big dynamics is much more effective on LP than 16-bit playback, including the CDPs at Shows and fancy dealerships. You don't need a 20K USD turntable to do it, either.... but you do need Lyra cartridges, or something at that level of capability, and you need a great deal of patience and dexterity to align the cartridge and arm geometry, etc. Oh, and I'm not talking about listening to tweetly little seranades; more like big symphonies of Mahler, and Lady Macbeth of Mtensk. The old valve-driven pressing of 'La Fille mal Gardee' (SXL2313) not only knocks you over with its dynamics, but it is so 'live' sounding that you FEEL the swells raising, before they hit you.
PMA, staying on analogue a master tape is beyond LP reproduction and for me better then digital.
Rod, I differ here and agree with PMA. First you need a good turntable. It's the basis and then comes the tonearm which leads the cartridge - and I agree with you that the cartridge must be excellent of course.
I am NOT saying that you should use a bad turntable. But you do not need to spend USD 20K. I use a Michell Orbe SE, which cost about 1/8th of that.
I do presentations with Vinyl on all the major shows world wide since over 20 years and i do not agree with PMA. Provided that the turntable is well adjusted and a clean and well cut record is on the table i have difficulties to throw people out of the room at the end of the show to get some food. One example recently is ETF. We had a Loricraft-Schoener Garrard 401 with Naim Aro arm and Lyra Skala. As an alternative i had a top Pioneer universal player that was heavily modified with very expensive AD Opamps and had a totally reworked PSU plus one of my buffers. NOBODY wanted to listen to this player, although i thought it sounded excellent. I left the room in the evening and i returned at 4.00 in the night because i wanted to find out where Martina was. Martina was still playing Vinyl, including heavy classical pieces from before the 50th. At 6.00 in the morning i gave up but still the freaks made no efford to leave. Some of them must have had a diet of 8 hours straight vinyl and when it whould have distorted i do not think that they whould have enyoyed it so much.
Well, you do not need to agree. My reference would be Beethoven conducted by Gardiner and Harnoncourt.
BTW, I wrote 'turntable', but meant tonearm and cartridge as well. Clearaudio tangent is enough? Or no? Still, vinyl limitations, very easily audible.
BTW, I wrote 'turntable', but meant tonearm and cartridge as well. Clearaudio tangent is enough? Or no? Still, vinyl limitations, very easily audible.
Mr Gerhard,
how dare you call Holger a freak !
Stars of the show : Martina Schoener's Garrard 401+ Joachim Gerhard's 1000 Carats phono stage, JC Morrison's Silbatone preamp, Guido Tent's Centi-are poweramp.
Biggest shock : Joachim Gerhard's open baffle panels with single wood screw mounted Phantom Willies.
Clearaudio Tangent, or any other table is not enough! it must also be set up by an experienced person with skill and taste. Tasteful choice of components, and Alignment accuracy makes more difference than cost. If you find yourself saying: "Never you get explosive dynamic of classical music from LP" then you have never experienced LP at real capability! I am not trying to be unfriendly, but emphatic! it really can be that good.
Interesting that you quote conductors of Original-Instrument ensembles & chamber orchestras [Gardiner, Harnoncourt]... that's hardly big dynamics! Kurt Masur conducting ONF in the Leningradskaya symphony would be more like it.
Interesting that you quote conductors of Original-Instrument ensembles & chamber orchestras [Gardiner, Harnoncourt]... that's hardly big dynamics! Kurt Masur conducting ONF in the Leningradskaya symphony would be more like it.
Joachim et al,
This area is a particular interest of mine and I have heard - and indeed owned - many very good TT front ends. Be Yamamura made a full air-float TT back in the mid-1990s which had absolutely no contact with anything (other than a drive string and the stylus tip when playing records. The arm was a parallel tracking pantograph arm using very finely adjusted unipivots in jewel cups at every juncture and the cartridge a bespoke version of the Audio Tekne carbon bodied MC with an eliptical tip. The dynamic impact of large scale orchestral works was well beyond anything which I have ever heard from any source. And the unexpected result was that the so called audio special recordings sounded absolutely awfully poor...without exception. The turntables and arms mentioned above - except for the Loricraft - are truly not near the top end of performance ratings. They are at best really good domestic products but unfortunately that is all. Even Joachim's Aro has limitations, but by golly is it fast!
I am having to re-learn how to hear due to having lost all useful hearing in my right ear due to a middle ear infection which burst into the cochlea and destroyed the cilia. Am 'getting there' but any comment I can make on sound quality is now relative to my hearing re-training. But the main thing is that I hear well enough to enjoy listening to good music as much as ever I did.
This area is a particular interest of mine and I have heard - and indeed owned - many very good TT front ends. Be Yamamura made a full air-float TT back in the mid-1990s which had absolutely no contact with anything (other than a drive string and the stylus tip when playing records. The arm was a parallel tracking pantograph arm using very finely adjusted unipivots in jewel cups at every juncture and the cartridge a bespoke version of the Audio Tekne carbon bodied MC with an eliptical tip. The dynamic impact of large scale orchestral works was well beyond anything which I have ever heard from any source. And the unexpected result was that the so called audio special recordings sounded absolutely awfully poor...without exception. The turntables and arms mentioned above - except for the Loricraft - are truly not near the top end of performance ratings. They are at best really good domestic products but unfortunately that is all. Even Joachim's Aro has limitations, but by golly is it fast!
I am having to re-learn how to hear due to having lost all useful hearing in my right ear due to a middle ear infection which burst into the cochlea and destroyed the cilia. Am 'getting there' but any comment I can make on sound quality is now relative to my hearing re-training. But the main thing is that I hear well enough to enjoy listening to good music as much as ever I did.
Rod
That's true and the Mitchel Orbe is a good turntable. But remember that turntables are mechanical devices and every step for better manufacturing will have its cost. I know whyt I'm telling you because I design turntables...
PMA
Beethoven is sure quiet good but I will recommend you Carl Orff with "Carmina Burana" or "Die Kluge" (many details and dynamics)!
Joachim
Oh yes, I remember the legendary High End shows in Frankfurt - Neu-Isenburg, especially the first ones.
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